Some interesting info around the world

[Todger_Fairmile]

what?

 

Compare the stats. Speed, guns, and lack of protection. First generation British Battlecruisers were designed to hunt down and kill cruisers, regular and armored. They had battleship size guns and cruiser level armor. They had a speed of 25+ knots and that was enough because the cruisers they were built to kill were no faster than 23-24 kts. They were supposed to avoid combat with enemy battleships (18-21 kts). They were supposed to be more powerful than enemy cruisers and run away from anything they could not outfight. Just like Graf Spee.  The thing is that thanks to improvements in technology cruisers got much faster. Look at the Tier 4, 5, and 6 cruisers for example. They are all (except for Svietlana) a good 7+ knots faster than Graf Spee. So now she can't out run enemy cruisers, and has to fight them. She only has 6 11' guns in 2 turrets. Can you imagine what will happen against 2 or 3 Omaha's (or Phoenix's or Kumas' for that matter).  

[Todger_Fairmile]

 

​Graf Spee is a comerce Raider not a BC. She has neither the speed nor the arment nor the armor of a BC. Not even of Repulse.

​She is a heavyly armed CA nothing more nothing less ans in WoWs its even arguable that a few high calibre guns beat more low calibre ones with a higher rof.

 

Look at the first generation British Battlecruisers. Their protection was comparable to the cruisers they were designed to fight. They both had a broadside of 6 12' vs 11' guns. And comparable speed 25 vs 28 kts. I'm saying time moved on and Graff Spee would be toast since she can't leave the map and has to fight.

HMS Invincible for instance.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Invincible_%281907%29

 

[puxflacet]

 Can you imagine what will happen against 2 or 3 Omaha's (or Phoenix's or Kumas' for that matter).  

 

even proper bb with lots of armor and big guns would struggle against 2 or 3 omahas

 

and you can see how good is furutaka dealing with cruisers right now with just 6x203 - 4rpm

6x280 - 2.5rpm sounds as good imho

 

So now she can't out run enemy cruisers, and has to fight them. She only has 6 11' guns in 2 turrets. 

so you probably woulndt put her in game at all...certainly not as high tier cruiser then

[Deamon93]

 

please stop with that. shes not cruiser either. i think she should be placed where she belongs historically and what she was designed for - destroying cruisers...mid tier cruisers

 

So why have the Germans classified them as heavy cruisers? Are they mad?

 

The pocket BB nonsense was invented not by the Germans but by the British. They have more similarities to the treaty cruisers than BBs. Why? Because their restrictions were 10000 tons standard displacement as the treaty cruisers with the possibility to mount guns up to 11" instead of 8" in caliber. At mid tier in a BB line they would be pointless because she would compete with either BBs or even worse proper BCs which are much more powerful than her and, in the second case, just as fast if not faster at times.

 

and more interesting + historical

 

i see graf spee as great premium mid tier bb

2 repair charges, cruiser concealment, almost cruiser speed, torpedos against unintentional encounter with proper bb

would be fun ship...feared by cruiser captains

 

as a high tier cruiser she would struggle a lot imho and be just weird, slow, out of place

 

Here is where you're wrong: the classification to BB is far from historical and the only interesting part by doing so she would compete with Seydlitz most likely. Does she have anything better than Seydlitz? A bit faster but that's about it. Meanwhile in the cruiser line Yorck is one of the designs developed prior Deutschland and followed the same restrictions: instead of mounting 11" guns as allowed she mounts the old 21 cm/45 used on Blucher

 

By logic Deutschland should be placed at the same tier of Yorck, offering the possibility to check the pros and cons of the two designs.

 

 

The problem is, Graf Spee is a pre WW1 battlecruiser in a WW2 world. Her stats are very close to British first generation battlecruisers (with even LESS protection) plus torpedoes. The problem with that is the Tier 4 + 5 + 6 cruisers she goes up against are faster (except for Svietlana), and at least as well protected, and their guns can fire almost as far. On top of that because of map limitations she can't even run away. Sure she can gobble up Tier 2's and most Tier 3's but Tier 4+'s will give her a big problem.

 

But she is not because her displacement is 10000 tons(standard displacement) while the earliest British BC(Invincible-class) had a standard displacement of 17000 tons and those would be placed at tier III(if WG bothers making a BC line in parallel to the BB one). Deutschland was created this way to pack as much punch in the little displacement they had to work with(before not giving a damn about it all together at least).

 

 

even proper bb with lots of armor and big guns would struggle against 2 or 3 omahas

 

and you can see how good is furutaka dealing with cruisers right now with just 6x203 - 4rpm

6x280 - 2.5rpm sounds as good imho

 

Well there would be a slight difference: Omahas won't be able to citadel the crap out of them as consistently as in case of Deutschland since the belt is much thinner. Coupled with the fact Deutschland, considering her limited displacement, would have a HP pool similar to treaty cruisers currentlly ingame, she would be a sunk Deutschland really fast in a similar condition.

[puxflacet]

So why have the Germans classified them as heavy cruisers? Are they mad?

 

panzerschiffe...or whatever...that doesnt matter. she was best suited as cruiser destroyer (when we have no merchants ships...). thats what put her into bb line for me...or make her cruiser then, but put her into mid tier please

[Jethro_Grey]

A threat to this thread your derailmnent has become. Stopping you must, young ones.

 

Derailment leads to unpleasentness, unpleasentness leads to anger and anger makes Darth BBV lock threads.

[Deamon93]

 

panzerschiffe...or whatever...that doesnt matter. she was best suited as cruiser destroyer (when we have no merchants ships...). thats what put her into bb line for me...or make her cruiser then, but put her into mid tier please

 

In early WWII they were reclassified as heavy cruisers. Still if you move them to the BB line Zara would have to be moved as well because, by comparison, she is much more armored. She however is a cruiser even though her level of protection was matched around ten years later by Baltimore and, until then, she was the top in that regard. Anyway personally I would start the balancing at tier VII and see if she works with her contemporaries and then evaluate the outcome of the test before moving on.

[Todger_Fairmile]

 

even proper bb with lots of armor and big guns would struggle against 2 or 3 omahas

 

and you can see how good is furutaka dealing with cruisers right now with just 6x203 - 4rpm

6x280 - 2.5rpm sounds as good imho

 

so you probably woulndt put her in game at all...certainly not as high tier cruiser then

 

When they put Invincible in the game she'll be a Tier 3 BC (if they have a separate BC line) and I don't see Graf Spee as being markedly superior to her (despite her longer range guns). If they put Graf Spee in (maybe as a tier 3 premium) the MM would have to be restricted to protect her. Probably no higher than Tier 4 opponents. She's like a Kirov but with a lot less speed, a real glass canon.

[puxflacet]

 

In early WWII they were reclassified as heavy cruisers. Still if you move them to the BB line Zara would have to be moved as well because, by comparison, she is much more armored. She however is a cruiser even though her level of protection was matched around ten years later by Baltimore and, until then, she was the top in that regard. Anyway personally I would start the balancing at tier VII and see if she works with her contemporaries and then evaluate the outcome of the test before moving on.

 

yeah...decade after they were built. pretty much every ship went through reclassification...and after their zenith and fame in 1939/1940

i dont care if cruiser or bb - just mid tier +repair charges + good concealment and she will be great

ideal and interesting premium bb imho

 

since zara would be pretty high i suppose i would prefer that these two ships will never meet in game...or have at least 2 tiers between them

 

i agree i was somewhat wrong saying that she should face her contemporaries... i had i mind, omahas, kumas, furutakas...so maybe tier 5 (premium) would be ideal place for her 

 

 

Todger_Fairmile, on 30 May 2016 - 07:50 AM, said:

When they put Invincible in the game she'll be a Tier 3 BC (if they have a separate BC line) and I don't see Graf Spee as being markedly superior to her (despite her longer range guns). If they put Graf Spee in (maybe as a tier 3 premium) the MM would have to be restricted to protect her. Probably no higher than Tier 4 opponents. She's like a Kirov but with a lot less speed, a real glass canon.

 

do we agree on 28.5 knots for Graf Spee? the 280mm also had better rate of fire and better penetration (better accuracy i can guess). She would beat Invincible regarding firepower...I think tier 3 is too low for her

[aky004]

2. The next nation represented in the game will be very unexpected

In game you can already see that they are gonna add Polish and Pan-asia and this "very unexpected" nation is pan-asia (at least that's my opinion)

 

You can find some info about Pan-Asia here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Asianism

[LilJumpa]

2. The next nation represented in the game will be very unexpected

In game you can already see that they are gonna add Polish and Pan-asia and this "very unexpected" nation is pan-asia (at least that's my opinion)

 

You can find some info about Pan-Asia here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Asianism

 

Anshan and Lo Yang are Pan Asia. They are already in the game.

And the polish ship is the Blyska. Also in the game.

[Sub_Eleven]

Technically the British  are also in the game with the Warspit and Cameltoe. So I'm wondering what they will add after the German battleship line? There are rumours about the French cruiser line at the end of the year, but we don't even officially know what they gonna release in between. So annoying!

[puxflacet]

...French cruiser line...

so much cruisers...what about CVs?

[Vanhal]

2. The next nation represented in the game will be very unexpected

In game you can already see that they are gonna add Polish and Pan-asia and this "very unexpected" nation is pan-asia (at least that's my opinion)

 

You can find some info about Pan-Asia here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Asianism

 

[Pastaiolo]

I am fine with anything new, however i can't stress enough that the game right now needs a new BB line more than a cruiser or DD line for sure

 

[N00b32]

I am fine with anything new, however i can't stress enough that the game right now needs a new BB line more than a cruiser or DD line for sure

 

The game needs more british flags on ships. (Someone had to make this comment).

 

Other than that I believe we will see enough cruiser and destroyer lines of all kinds of nations Wargaming tries to capitalize. 

[PuchForLife]

I would go with the france but that would be expected if its unexpected the dutch navy saw some action in the pacific. Or maby an Australische or other commonwealth ship. For me the dutch would be unexpected but realy Nice Being dutch myself that is

[fumtu]

2. The next nation represented in the game will be very unexpected

In game you can already see that they are gonna add Polish and Pan-asia and this "very unexpected" nation is pan-asia (at least that's my opinion)

 

You can find some info about Pan-Asia here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Asianism

 

With what ships? There were three or four possible Chinese cruiser classes, one or two Chinese destroyer classes, I think one Siam destroyer class and one Siam coastal ship that could be worth to be included in the game. All later Chinese ships were mix of former Japanese, US, USSR or British ships. And I don't think there were many ships in planing/development phase to fill any tree. All other countries in the Asia at that time were colonies or didn't have navy at all. And if WG decide to add post-war Indian Navy for example all it ships will be actually former RN ships. That could be a good thing for the British.

[Deamon93]

Technically the British  are also in the game with the Warspit and Cameltoe. So I'm wondering what they will add after the German battleship line? There are rumours about the French cruiser line at the end of the year, but we don't even officially know what they gonna release in between. So annoying!

 

The order should be German BB, British cruisers(mostly CLs we can assume from the easter eggs) and then the fourth line announced earlier this year but without any information regarding what it may be. This last line is up to speculation but hopefully they'll release some hints sooner or later.

[Historynerd]

I would go with the france but that would be expected if its unexpected the dutch navy saw some action in the pacific. Or maby an Australische or other commonwealth ship. For me the dutch would be unexpected but realy Nice Being dutch myself that is

 

The idea of a Dutch tree has been floated some times in the forums, and each time the conclusion was that, although they do have quite a bit of ships, they're not enough to stand alone, as there are too many gaps.

 

The Australian Navy is put even worse than the Dutch.

[Sub_Eleven]

 

The order should be German BB, British cruisers(mostly CLs we can assume from the easter eggs) and then the fourth line announced earlier this year but without any information regarding what it may be. This last line is up to speculation but hopefully they'll release some hints sooner or later.

 

So you think it will be German battleships, British cruisers and French cruisers? What did you mean with fourth line?

 

 

The idea of a Dutch tree has been floated some times in the forums, and each time the conclusion was that, although they do have quite a bit of ships, they're not enough to stand alone, as there are too many gaps.

 

The Australian Navy is put even worse than the Dutch.

 

Agree, doubt the Dutch will get their own tech tree for the reasons you mentioned. Maybe some premium ship, stand alone or in some sort of a joint european line just like the pan asia line.

[Todger_Fairmile]

 

yeah...decade after they were built. pretty much every ship went through reclassification...and after their zenith and fame in 1939/1940

i dont care if cruiser or bb - just mid tier +repair charges + good concealment and she will be great

ideal and interesting premium bb imho

 

since zara would be pretty high i suppose i would prefer that these two ships will never meet in game...or have at least 2 tiers between them

 

i agree i was somewhat wrong saying that she should face her contemporaries... i had i mind, omahas, kumas, furutakas...so maybe tier 5 (premium) would be ideal place for her 

 

 

 

do we agree on 28.5 knots for Graf Spee? the 280mm also had better rate of fire and better penetration (better accuracy i can guess). She would beat Invincible regarding firepower...I think tier 3 is too low for her

 

I agree on speed, and probably better guns (at least newer design). Graf Spee only had 80mm of armor (except 140mm on guns), while Invincible had 152mm (178 on guns). Though I will give Graf Spee much better underwater protection and secondaries.

[Carnotzet]

By the way, James_White said the next nation would be unexpected. In no way does it mean that this nation will have a fully developed tech tree. I mean Pan-Asia and Poland are nations present in the game, but they don't have full tech trees. It's up to speculation, but this new nation may very well have only one or two premium ships and the third announced branch will be from one of the nations already present in the game.

Just keep in mind that a new nation doesn't necessarily involve a full new branch.

[Historynerd]

By the way, James_White said the next nation would be unexpected. In no way does it mean that this nation will have a fully developed tech tree. I mean Pan-Asia and Poland are nations present in the game, but they don't have full tech trees. It's up to speculation, but this new nation may very well have only one or two premium ships and the third announced branch will be from one of the nations already present in the game.

Juts keep in mind that new nation doesn't necessarily involve a full new branch.

 

You are right.

[Todger_Fairmile]

I know, they'll create a Balkans navy line. Combining Austro-Hungary, Greece, and Turkey (or Turkey, and Greece if you prefer).  Gets Austro-Hungarian Navy, Greek Navy (including former American Pre-Dreadnoughts), and Turkish navy. Since some of the Turkish and Greek battleships were also models used by Britain and France Wg can kill 2 birds by reskinning some of their ships. In fact 2 of the Turkish BB's were at Jutland on the British side. LOL