so im curious

[Liare]

why is this

on tier 7 when this

is on tier 10 ?

 

judging by the guns on the Gremyashchy, that seem to perform on par-or-better than USN 127mm guns in the DPM and fire arch department (it's the same 130mm guns in a different mounting) i am really quite curious as to how this is going to be balanced in practice, they have equal number of barrels, equal number of torp tubes of identical caliber and Soviet torpedoes, judging by the Murmansk and Gremyashchy, are decidedly on the side of "better than average".

 

are we seriously looking at "Bad AA guns make up the difference!" or something?

[Userext]

why is this

 

on tier 7 when this

 

is on tier 10 ?

 

judging by the guns on the Gremyashchy, that seem to perform on par-or-better than USN 127mm guns in the DPM and fire arch department (it's the same 130mm guns in a different mounting) i am really quite curious as to how this is going to be balanced in practice, they have equal number of barrels, equal number of torp tubes of identical caliber and Soviet torpedoes, judging by the Murmansk and Gremyashchy, are decidedly on the side of "better than average".

 

are we seriously looking at "Bad AA guns make up the difference!" or something?

 

could you please upload the second picture from a diffent website that sint imgur?

 

The ratings are just numbers. They dont reflect the actual power of a ship.

[Liare]

 

could you please upload the second picture from a diffent website that sint imgur?

 

The ratings are just numbers. They dont reflect the actual power of a ship.

 

you misunderstand what i am getting at.

the Gearing has 6x127mm guns, and 2x5 533mm torpedo launchers, the Kiev has 6x130mm guns and 2x5 533mm Torpedo launchers, they are roughly equal sized, the Kiev had a design speed of something like 40kt to the Gearing's 36kt and so on, the Gearing had more AA firepower obviously, but beyond that the "hard stats" are remarkably similar, yet there is a three tier spread between the ships.

[Userext]

 

you misunderstand what i am getting at.

the Gearing has 6x127mm guns, and 2x5 533mm torpedo launchers, the Kiev has 6x130mm guns and 2x5 533mm Torpedo launchers, they are roughly equal sized, the Kiev had a design speed of something like 40kt to the Gearing's 36kt and so on, the Gearing had more AA firepower obviously, but beyond that the "hard stats" are remarkably similar, yet there is a three tier spread between the ships.

 

You are forgetting the RoF and turret turning time

Hatsuharu has 6x127mm guns and 6x610mm torpedoes. Does that make hatsuharu better ship than gearing? Also design speed is the speed without any armament. So it will be around 37 or 38 knots not 40 knots

[ColonelPete]

You see the difference in the torpedo value?

That is a DDs main weapon.

 

The Gearing has more HP, much better Torpedos, much better AA.

[Luckyio]

For destroyer, the first thing you look at is the thing that matters most. Torpedoes.

 

Value of 15 for T7, and 37 for T10. No further questions necessary.

[Liare]

 

You are forgetting the RoF and turret turning time

Hatsuharu has 6x127mm guns and 6x610mm torpedoes. Does that make hatsuharu better ship than gearing? Also design speed is the speed without any armament. So it will be around 37 or 38 knots not 40 knots

 

the Gremyashchy get's slow turret rotation but equal ROF to the USN 5" guns, this has the same guns in a different mounting, USN 5" guns dont actually gain or lose ROF throughout the tech tree, why should these be different ?

max design speed is also the top speed for most ships in game, why should this be any different ? actually a predecessor to the project 48 ship was build, in the shape of the Tashkent, with a 43.5kt top speed.

 

i do see the Gearing has superior torpedoes, but i struggle to line this up with the argument that USN Destroyers should rely on their guns due to their inferior torpedoes, that after all applies from basically the tier 2 all the way to the Benson, especially considering that the ship it's going to be tiered across with is the Mahan of all things.

[Userext]

That is a DDs main weapon.

 

NO. That isnt what WG wants from DDs. They dont want DDs to use their torpedoes as a main weapon. They want area denial etc.

 

Guys seriously SNDDs are getting in game because they want to change the vision of DDs. The type we have in wows right now doesnt fit the type WG wants.

[Xevious_Red]

Although the Kiev has the same number of tops,  I'd expect them to be slower and shorter ranged. The guns will be similar - the gear g will have faster RoF while the Kiev will be punchier. Judging by the lower concealment, the Kiev will be spotted sooner, and can't take the concealment module. Since the range of the tops is unknown, this might mean she can't launch unspotted, or at least has a very narrow window to launch in.

[Userext]

 

the Gremyashchy get's slow turret rotation but equal ROF to the USN 5" guns, this has the same guns in a different mounting, USN 5" guns dont actually gain or lose ROF throughout the tech tree, why should these be different ?

max design speed is also the top speed for most ships in game, why should this be any different ? actually a predecessor to the project 48 ship was build, in the shape of the Tashkent, with a 43.5kt top speed.

 

Gearing has 20 RoF

 

Max design speed is never the top speed in game for msot ships. Only paper ships have design speed. For example sims had 37 knots design speed and 35 knots actual speed in game it has 39 knots

 

Shimakaze had 42 knots design speed and 40 knots actual speed it has 39 knots speed.

[Liare]

Although the Kiev has the same number of tops,  I'd expect them to be slower and shorter ranged. The guns will be similar - the gear g will have faster RoF while the Kiev will be punchier. Judging by the lower concealment, the Kiev will be spotted sooner, and can't take the concealment module. Since the range of the tops is unknown, this might mean she can't launch unspotted, or at least has a very narrow window to launch in.

 

how does this align with the torpedo performance on the Gremyashchy vs the Nicholas ? Wargaming seems big on keeping the "national traits" around and i have a hard time seeing how this thing is not going to flat-out superior to the Mahan in every way, even if it just gets the 53-39 from the Gremy straight across, it's still going to be flat-out better.

 

 

Gearing has 20 RoF

 

Max design speed is never the top speed in game for msot ships. Only paper ships have design speed. For example sims had 37 knots design speed and 35 knots actual speed in game it has 39 knots

 

Shimakaze had 42 knots design speed and 40 knots actual speed it has 39 knots speed.

 

really, every source i have access to, being at work and all, put it firmly in the 12rpm department, even the official wiki.

[Userext]

Player Average for Ships (all players) [ at 2015/09/19 ]

nation	class	tier	name	players	total battles	average of rates
						battles	win	draw	lose	exp	damage caused	warship destroyed	aircraft destoryed	base capture	base defense	survived	kill / death	POINT
JP	DD	5	Minekaze	24757	172820	6.98	52.25	3.98	43.77	1231	27972	0.94	0.09	0.88	0.39	25.33	1.28	23531
SN	DD	5	Gremyashchy	4145	14287	3.45	52.84	4.34	42.82	1531	25058	0.85	0.30	0.92	0.99	26.86	1.03	18089
US	DD	5	Nicholas	14779	105092	7.11	49.01	4.11	46.88	1183	19774	0.71	0.37	0.65	0.38	15.03	0.87	22092

 

 

Average stats. For your information POINT is the result of all stats they have up there 

[rigawe]

What is the problem? People are still not used to WG balance when it come to russian equipment?

[Liare]

Player Average for Ships (all players) [ at 2015/09/19 ]

nation	class	tier	name	players	total battles	average of rates
						battles	win	draw	lose	exp	damage caused	warship destroyed	aircraft destoryed	base capture	base defense	survived	kill / death	POINT
JP	DD	5	Minekaze	24757	172820	6.98	52.25	3.98	43.77	1231	27972	0.94	0.09	0.88	0.39	25.33	1.28	23531
SN	DD	5	Gremyashchy	4145	14287	3.45	52.84	4.34	42.82	1531	25058	0.85	0.30	0.92	0.99	26.86	1.03	18089
US	DD	5	Nicholas	14779	105092	7.11	49.01	4.11	46.88	1183	19774	0.71	0.37	0.65	0.38	15.03	0.87	22092

 

 

Average stats. For your information POINT is the result of all stats they have up there 

 

and we're back at the initial question, how are they going to balance these ships when the "hard stats" (ie, ship speed, number of gun barrels, torpedo tubes) are so strikingly similar ?

 

looking purely at how they are fitted out the Kiev is basically a Gearing without DP guns and less AA guns mounted, and the soft-stats have to make up a three tier gap ?

[Userext]

looking purely at how they are fitted out the Kiev is basically a Gearing without DP guns and less AA guns mounted, and the soft-stats have to make up a three tier gap ?

 

Again you can say that about any IJNDD above tier 6. Hatsuharu has 3x2 127mm guns and 2x3 610mm torpedoes. But hatsuharu has no chance of getting close to being a gearing. Fubuki has 3x2 127mm guns and 3x3 610mm torpedoes. But fubuki has no chance of getting close to being a gearing.

 

 

[Xevious_Red]

Except we don't know what the gun's range, damage, or RoF is. Nor do we know what the turret turn speed is. We can guess that they'll be about equally effective since they have been both given the same rating.

 

Similarly we don't know what the torp speed, range, damage, detection, reload or angles are. Since the gearing has its torps rated as "37" while the kiev's are only rated as "15" means they're highly unlikely to be as good.

 

Just because they have the same number of barrels doesn't make them the same - the Wyoming has the same number of barrels as a fuss,  doesn't mean they do the same damage or have the same range

[Liare]

 

Again you can say that about any IJNDD above tier 6. Hatsuharu has 3x2 127mm guns and 2x3 610mm torpedoes. But hatsuharu has no chance of getting close to being a gearing. Fubuki has 3x2 127mm guns and 3x3 610mm torpedoes. But fubuki has no chance of getting close to being a gearing.

 

 

the Hasuharu never carried 3x2, it carried 2x2 and 1x1 with the latter being removed for AA Guns.

 

dont forget it's not matched up against the Gearing, it's matched up against the Mahan, if you simply move the Gremy's stats over in the Gun and Torpedo department it's likely to be amusingly onesided, and afaik the 53-39 is basically the only WW2 era Soviet Torpedo deployed on Destroyers.

 

Except we don't know what the gun's range, damage, or RoF is. Nor do we know what the turret turn speed is. We can guess that they'll be about equally effective since they have been both given the same rating.

 

Similarly we don't know what the torp speed, range, damage, detection, reload or angles are. Since the gearing has its torps rated as "37" while the kiev's are only rated as "15" means they're highly unlikely to be as good.

 

Just because they have the same number of barrels doesn't make them the same - the Wyoming has the same number of barrels as a fuss,  doesn't mean they do the same damage or have the same range

the Wyoming has 12" guns versus the Fuso's 14"

[Userext]

the Hasuharu never carried 3x2, it carried 2x2 and 1x1 with the latter being removed for AA Guns.

 

Hatsuharu carries 3x2 guns at first hull then it gives away one turret and turns into 2x2

 

the Hasuharu never carried 3x2, it carried 2x2 and 1x1 with the latter being removed for AA Guns.

 

dont forget it's not matched up against the Gearing, it's matched up against the Mahan, if you simply move the Gremy's stats over in the Gun and Torpedo department it's likely to be amusingly onesided, and afaik the 53-39 is basically the only WW2 era Soviet Torpedo deployed on Destroyers.

 

Kiev is tier 7 its not matched up against gearing its matched up against ahtsuahru and mahan then why did you start your discussion with a tier 7 SNDD against a tier 10 USNDD

[Unintentional_submarine]

 

really, every source i have access to, being at work and all, put it firmly in the 12rpm department, even the official wiki.

 

The wiki isn't detailed enough. The USN 5''/38 came in such a multitude of marks and different turrets and setups that while the actual gun was the same, the performance was quite different. Among those are the turrets for the Gearing (and A. M. Sumner), which included integral hoists that could push the rate of fire to a staggering 22 rpm.

[Liare]

 

Hatsuharu carries 3x2 guns at first hull then it gives away one turret and turns into 2x2

nope, it has 2 twin and 1 single.

 

 

Kiev is tier 7 its not matched up against gearing its matched up against ahtsuahru and mahan then why did you start your discussion with a tier 7 SNDD against a tier 10 USNDD

because the "hard" stats are identical, ie, number of barrels, number of torp tubes and size ?

looks like it has worse AA (in it's 1941 partially build state, versus a mid 1945 gearing during trials) but higher speed, the point being, why is one on tier 10 and the other on tier 7 ?

 

 

The wiki isn't detailed enough. The USN 5''/38 came in such a multitude of marks and different turrets and setups that while the actual gun was the same, the performance was quite different. Among those are the turrets for the Gearing (and A. M. Sumner), which included integral hoists that could push the rate of fire to a staggering 22 rpm.

 

the few gearings i remember encountering all seemed to put out roughly 12RPM in game much the same as the predecessors, and the same as the Gremy gets on it's 130mm guns, i half expect we can extrapolate that the 130mm Soviet gun is going to have roughly the same ROF, with more damage and superior shell performance, albiet without being in a DP mount.

[Userext]

really, every source i have access to, being at work and all, put it firmly in the 12rpm department, even the official wiki.

 

Gearing has been planned to have 12 RPM nerf but it never received it. It still has 20 RPM in game. You can just go over to it in game and check its stats there. Wiki and others have 12 RPM because as i said in this very reply gearing was supposed to be nerfed to have 12 RPM since mid CBT

[Userext]

nope, it has 2 twin and 1 single.

 

My bad i confused fubuki and hatsuharu as they look very similar still that doesnt remove the fact that gun amount isnt important

 

because the "hard" stats are identical, ie, number of barrels, number of torp tubes and size ?

looks like it has worse AA (in it's 1941 partially build state, versus a mid 1945 gearing during trials) but higher speed, the point being, why is one on tier 10 and the other on tier 7 ?

 

Hard stats mean nothing. They seriously mean nothing. Some low tier USNDDs have more torpedoes and more guns than IJN ones. But that does not make them good. 

 

the few gearings i remember encountering all seemed to put out roughly 12RPM in game much the same as the predecessors, and the same as the Gremy gets on it's 130mm guns, i half expect we can extrapolate that the 130mm Soviet gun is going to have roughly the same ROF, with more damage and superior shell performance, albiet without being in a DP mount.

 

You cant make your mind from one premium destroyer. Tirptiz have torpedoes but it has been explained many times that tirpitz is the only BB to get torpedoes. Also gearing still has 20 RPM

[Userext]

This is Sims' stats

 

Survivability	24
	Combat Capability 13800 Armor 6-13 mm
Artillery	27
	Main battery 127 mm/38 Mk30 mod. 0  4x1
Torpedoes	13
	Torpedo Tubes 533 mm Quad 2x4
AA Guns	11
	AA Guns 12.7 mm Browning M2 mod. 2 4x1 12.7 mm AA Guns 20 mm Oerlikon Mk4 2x1 20 mm AA Guns 127 mm/38 Mk30 mod. 0 4x1 127 mm
Maneurability	97
	Maximum speed 39 knots Turning Circle Radius 500 m Rudder Shift Time 3.5s
Concealment	87
	Surface Detectability Range 7.6 km Air Detectability Range 3.7 km

 

 

According to the stats we can see on that kiev it isnt much diffrent than a sims. 

[Vulgarny]

You can expect really awesome firepower from that guns. Its 12 rounds per minute for B-2LM Twin Mount and train rate B-2LM:  9.7 degrees per second.

 

[Unintentional_submarine]

 

Gearing has been planned to have 12 RPM nerf but it never received it. It still has 20 RPM in game. You can just go over to it in game and check its stats there. Wiki and others have 12 RPM because as i said in this very reply gearing was supposed to be nerfed to have 12 RPM since mid CBT

 

They posted some patch notes to that effect, changed the ingame tooltips, but never carried it out, and have now changed the tooltips back to the correct values. I think it is a safe bet that they have abandoned the idea of nerfing the guns like that.

 

Also, while Gearing is the most obvious, she isn't the only USN 5 inch DD with more than 12 rpm, in fact they all have more. Nicholas to Mahan: 15rpm. Benson and Fletcher: 13.3rpm.

 

You can expect really awesome firepower from that guns. Its 12 rounds per minute for B-2LM Twin Mount and train rate B-2LM:  9.7 degrees per second.

 

No doubt. More Grem guns in mounts with rather fast train rate... yes please. She will be a real danger in a gunfight. But if her detection range is high and range is low, she might not be able to stealthgun. And as we know, even the same gun can change in range values for no obvious reason.