Des Moines vs Baltimore, Des Moines utter [edited]! Please fix?

[deathcaster]

I agree that the arcs of the Des Moines should be improved, I mean I am able to duel one in a Mogami/Atago for that reason alone (not saying I win all the time but given the tier difference the DM should be able to beat a t8 ship). 

 

But in the end it really doesn't matter that much. CA's are getting eaten so fast by BB's in high tiers, it's ridiculous. So yeah OP as long as they keep high-tier BB/CA balance like it is now you should count on being 1/2 shotted by BB's in high tiers.

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

 Des has less guns more AA Zao has torpedos.

Des has RoF 10 shots per minute, while Zao has half of this value. Torpedos are good, but remember that apart of specific maps (Ice map for example), there won't be many occasions to use them. 10 km range is already borderline useful, while less then 8 km is very situational.

 

 Zao can shoot invisible des has more hp - Not that it matters because you die pretty quickly when your spotted in a DM.

Des can also shoot invisible. With full ninja build you can shoot undetected from around 16,3 km while having 18,4 km fire range. Zao can shoot uspotted from below 16 km though.

 Zao firing arc is amazing des is atrocious.

I wouldn't say it's atrocius, but I would say it's overnerfed. If US CA are meant to be gunboats - let us be awarded with a really good gunboat at tier X. Although, it's not it's main disadvantage. It's main disadvantage is that it's very easy to citadel, when he should be the toughest CA in game. So, apart from RoF and raw DPS, you don't have anything going on for Des. AA is worse then Baltimore had. Not that it matters since CA AA is for panicking formation from tier VIII upwards. 

 

 Current Meta = everyone border hugging long range engagements = Zao wins due to invisibility and firing arc.

That's not true.

 

 I agree that the arcs of the Des Moines should be improved, I mean I am able to duel one in a Mogami/Atago for that reason alone (not saying I win all the time but given the tier difference the DM should be able to beat a t8 ship). 

I would like to see how are you dueling in Atago vs Des. You won't be even able to see him. And when you're below 13 km range Mogami/Atago is food to Des. 

 But in the end it really doesn't matter that much. CA's are getting eaten so fast by BB's in high tiers, it's ridiculous. So yeah OP as long as they keep high-tier BB/CA balance like it is now you should count on being 1/2 shotted by BB's in high tiers.

And now we're getting somewhere. With latest nerf to CV's they are rare to see in high tier matches (maybe half of my tier X matches now include a CV in team). With the absence of CV's, overbuffed BB's are dominant to the point, that you can't take down half HP BB with full HP CA through the fight, especially in low DPS CA's like Ibuki or Baltimore. Dodging fire is not as big problem (though Des likes to get citadelled a lot), dealing damage is a problem. I hated my Baltimore cause i felt like I'm unable to close the deal even with severly bruised BB. 

 

Des Moines is right now a supbar warship. It should either have a buff to shell trajectory, or a large buff to survivability. 

 

 

[Sander93]

Des has RoF 10 shots per minute, while Zao has half of this value.

 

Don´t forget the Zao has more guns with higher damage and higher fire chance, increasing its DPS regardless of ROF. Not to mention it has better accuracy and shell velocity, further increasing its actual DPS. 

[Exocet6951]

 

Don´t forget the Zao has more guns with higher damage and higher fire chance, increasing its DPS regardless of ROF. Not to mention it has better accuracy and shell velocity, further increasing its actual DPS. 

 

Fire chance?

 

People use HE on a Zao? ô.o

[Fluffy_Pillow]

 

 

Des Moines is right now a supbar warship. It should either have a buff to shell trajectory, or a large buff to survivability. 

 

 

 

I agree with that. I played a number of games in Des Moines the last few days experimenting with the different modules. I think she could be significantly improved quite easily if the gun range was extended and the trajectory flattened a bit. Bonus would be if the armor was improved. This would enable usage of the aa modules and still have the reach making her much more interesting to play. She is not a bad ship she is just missing the edge as she is right now even with upgrades. I still enjoy playing Des Moines and have regular games with around 150k damage done. Its not super awesome fantastic but at least it feels like it is ok and that I can make an impact on the game.

 

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

Well, I also like Des Moines. I do quite well with it, and don't feel hindered or anything when I play it. But my question is: how would I perform in Zao? And my guess is I could do around 100k average dmg on Zao, based on what I see, and what my friends do in Des and in Zao, maybe more. Now my average oscilates around 80 - 82k on Des, and I'm playing mostly solo games. It would go up if I would division with some BB to tank the hits. 

 

However. Des Moines is one of those ships, that are hard to balance. Either it will be borderline OP like in CBT, or it will be average/below average like it is now. 

 

I would like to see one of the two buffs:

1. Keep it as it is, but accelerate shells speed and lower the arc of fire

2. Large buff to armour - make it similar to Clevelands citadel etc. without touching guns. 

 

But, unfortunately, I doubt we will see anything like that in next half of the year.

[Sander93]

Fire chance?

 

Fire chance, guns, as in: HE shells with higher chance to set fires. 

[Nefczi]

Well, I also like Des Moines. I do quite well with it, and don't feel hindered or anything when I play it. But my question is: how would I perform in Zao? And my guess is I could do around 100k average dmg on Zao, based on what I see, and what my friends do in Des and in Zao, maybe more. Now my average oscilates around 80 - 82k on Des, and I'm playing mostly solo games. It would go up if I would division with some BB to tank the hits. 

 

However. Des Moines is one of those ships, that are hard to balance. Either it will be borderline OP like in CBT, or it will be average/below average like it is now. 

 

I would like to see one of the two buffs:

1. Keep it as it is, but accelerate shells speed and lower the arc of fire

2. Large buff to armour - make it similar to Clevelands citadel etc. without touching guns. 

 

But, unfortunately, I doubt we will see anything like that in next half of the year.

 

 

This is a good question and good answer. I went through some of the top Des Moines players registered on warshipstats site the other day, looking for those who have Zao as well. I thought that despite DM performing noticably worse than Zao statistically(on average). maybe there is a hidden catch, maybe Des Moines is just hard to play but in capabble hands it can be as effective at Zao.

Well, outside of one or two odd casses, every player I found owning both t10 cruisers, was getting much better results in the Zao. And that was actually the case for all tier 7-10 Cruisers. Ppl having both lines unlocked would do noticably better in IJN ships. Des Moines is not an excepton despite its amazing ROF.

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

My opinion is that after tier VI there is no reason to grind US CA line apart from the sake of having stuff unlocked. US CA's are meant to be gunboats and AA's platform. But AA is just redundant and unrewarding feature. BB's got better AA, so only the breaking the formation really counts. As for guns - IJN has the same or even better guns at their respective tiers. Plus they have torpedoes and usually better camo. Armour is useless in both cases, and like I said - AA is useless as long as you have the AA skill. 

 

I think that CA's need some love, and especially US CA's are in bad need of attention.

[Exocet6951]

 

Fire chance, guns, as in: HE shells with higher chance to set fires. 

 

I see I'll have to explain myself on this one....

 

The fire chance on the Zao is irrelevant, because HE shells are irrelevant to it.

Pump out those sexy 920m/s AP shells, and leave the HE spam to the DM.

[Sander93]

Good luck using AP against angled battleships, or cruisers for that matter. Fire will do more damage against good players. 

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

 Fire will do more damage against good players.  

That is true. Although Zao's AP are indeed very nice, and will penetrate very often.

[GeneralRushHour]

Bump. It needs a gun velocity buff, hopefully deva are looking at this.

 

i find it sad that the tier X US CA and BB are inferior to their japanese counterparts when facing each other.

[Fluffy_Pillow]

 

I see in next patch notes the mention that there will be an armor buff for Baltimore and Des Moines. Nothing mentioned about the guns but lets see how it pans out.

 

 

[Sander93]

 Balance improvements in the new update affect different ships. The armour thickness of U.S. cruisers Baltimore and Des Moines was ever so slightly increased after recalculation.

 

 

Time for a party! Every so slightly increased armor. Yes you read that correctly. I fear Des Moines and Baltimore might become OP after this major buff. Zao will be defenseless against Des Moines with ever so slightly increased armor.

 

[JingoJaden]

The armor upgrade is not noticable, I mean, I am a sneaky little des moins. Play it like a big destroyer. But for whatever reason I can't quite zig-zag or shake off quite as much damage as I did with the Baltimore. I don't know what the damage boxes are with this thing, but this thing really, really does not like being spotted by Montanas. I am fairly certain the cit-pen box has been enlarged, but with some atlanta experience one kind of learns how to hedge ones best as much as one can as it is the most comparable ship. 

 

So far, tier for tier after the Cleveland Nerf? The Pepsicola is the highlight. Though, I will say the des moins, when it behaves itself and if it goes up against solo-cruiser engagement as rare as that is on Tier X, is quite ridiculously OP. Other than that, the unrewarding job of escorting and destroyer-plucking, which is NOT safe against the late tier DD's is what it is for. Against battleships you really just have to go go undetected often and use cover to set them on fire. Adding to the relatively poor armor characteristics and somewhat wanting firing-arc's it get's zoned in on each time, which combined makes the des moins quite often getting annihilated first in matches.

 

 That being said I do feel 'somewhat given their superior armament and firing arcs' for my Japanese cruiser bretherens who have this problem pretty much through every tier on the cruiser line.

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

It's definitely a step in the right direction. Even slight buff to armour can be quite substantial on long range exchanges, which are one of the problems Des Moines encounters. I'm curious how it will turn out. Also, Atago buff is very appreciated. 

[Nefczi]

 

 

Time for a party! Every so slightly increased armor. Yes you read that correctly. I fear Des Moines and Baltimore might become OP after this major buff. Zao will be defenseless against Des Moines with ever so slightly increased armor.

 

 

Maybe Des Moines will be able to bounce shells back at Zao now 

[Sander93]

 U.S.A.

1. The armor plating of Baltimore and Des Moines has been thickened by 2 mm

 

Ahaha what the hell :'D

 

Such buff. Wow. That will definitely fill the 20.000 damage gap between DM and Zao. 

[Nefczi]

Buffing the armor of Balti and DM by 2 mm is too much. Should be 1mm. Now they will be seriously OP ;)

 

 

But seriously now, any idea what does that mean? Easier to bounce or the opposite? Cant figure out if thats a buff or nerf from wording(or my english lacking ;))

 

 

1. 203 mm AP shells fired by the main batteries of U.S.A. cruisers (except for the stock main battery of Pensacola) will enjoy better ricochet angles

 

 

 

[Izze]

But seriously now, any idea what does that mean? Easier to bounce or the opposite? Cant figure out if thats a buff or nerf from wording(or my english lacking ;))

 

by the use of the word "enjoy" I would assume it's going to be a buff (and one that alleviates the issues created by the over-nerfed firing arcs to some limited extend)

 

I wouldn't get to excited, esp since it's coupled with this giant nerf to all cruisers:

 

Two charges of Defensive Fire is available for all cruisers, except the US whose cruisers have 3 charges of this consumable, with Atlanta being the only exception that keeps the an unlimited amount of charges for this consumable.   

 

 

  

 

[Nefczi]

 

by the use of the word "enjoy" I would assume it's going to be a buff (and one that alleviates the issues created by the over-nerfed firing arcs to some limited extend)

 

I wouldn't get to excited, esp since it's coupled with this giant nerf to all cruisers:

 

I don think I ever used Defensive Fire more than 2-3 times in one battle. The problem is that its gonna be expensive to retrain the captains for Superintendant :/

[Izze]

 

I don think I ever used Defensive Fire more than 2-3 times in one battle. The problem is that its gonna be expensive to retrain the captains for Superintendant :/

 

I've had games where I did, specifically in close games with but a few ships left floating on each side. 

The idea that as a prize for surviving long enough to see all my aa charges go away i become an easy kill for the carrier (which - and let's be frank here will NOT run out of planes in t8/9/10 matches) is greatly disappointing.

 

[Nefczi]

 

I've had games where I did, specifically in close games with but a few ships left floating on each side. 

The idea that as a prize for surviving long enough to see all my aa charges go away i become an easy kill for the carrier (which - and let's be frank here will NOT run out of planes in t8/9/10 matches) is greatly disappointing.

 

 

The US cruisers will have 3 charges(all other cruisers 2). So with superintendant perk you get 4 charges. You wont use more than 4 in battle really. In order to use it 5 times, you would have to spam it every time its available/comes off CD. In theory you could use it even 6 times in a full lenght battle, but you would have to activate it right at the start of the battle, before carriers have squadrons in the air, and keep spamming it every time its goes off cooldown, regardless if you need it or not at the time.

 

So this is a bit of a nerf to other nation cruisers as they will have to be a bit more carefull when to use it. But for US it wont change much really.

 

The biggest downside of this change is that Superintendant will become more or less a must have for any cruiser with Defensife AA skill. Since its a must have for DDs and BB already, then this makes High Alert skill kinda useless.

[Izze]

ok, so the craziest scenario with premium consumable reload:

120s+40s between uses:

 

1. 0:00
2. 2:40
3. 5:20
4. 8:00
5. 10:40
6. 13:20
7. 16:00
8. 18:40

 

Of course you cannot reasonably expect to see planes before about the 2:00 mark (leaving us at 7 uses) and wont use them each time they're ready so that's 1-2 less uses (5-6).

 

this does indeed prove that the issue will not as prevalent in most games

 

...that said chances are, if you were protecting other ships with your aa (something I believe is written as one of your "roles" as a cruiser in the game) you will be out by minute 12-15 (10 if you're w/o superintended/jap cruiser) leaving you and other ships vulnerable to air attack from a carrier which does not have to ever worry about running out of planes in a high tier battle (I realize I must be saying this a lot by now...).

 

It is my strong opinion that this change does appear entirely unnecessary unless it is followed by a re-balancing of aa dps/plane health/plane numbers.