How to balance secondaries?

[Cuddly_Spider]

Secondaries are fine as they are. I don't see what all the fuss is about.

[Santos47]

They need range bust on lower tier and slight accurate buff.

[Lord_WC]

Hi,

 

I am playing both CV, BB, CA and DD. I like the game but the thing that in my view needs change is how BB secondariness works.

 

The fact is that most of BB secondariness are the guns that normal cruisers have. Thus, those guns should behave as cruisers once. For me it is clear that in short range they should literally tear apart anything being brave/stupid enough to come close. If CA/DD comes to close to BB it should die. This is historical reality. 

 

But what with the balance then?

 

DD

In my view they should depend mainly on being stealthy and undetected up to the moment of attack. If destroyer would remain hidden from battleship it should kill it.

 

Thus I would consider:

- either making destroyers torpedo more powerful (so that destroyers become glass-cannon). In this case one hit should causes really significant amount of damage, even a kill.

- or making destroyers more stealthye.g. by increasing torpedoes distance together with making torpedoes more accurate at those distances (e.g. by making them faster, at least at the beginning of their travel)

- making DD faster and more manoeuvrable so to make them able to avoid BB missles

 

CA

• Generally Ca should mainly work as anti DD and anty air
• This would however be boring thus, probably they should also excel at middle distances where battleships cannons would be inaccurate and CA could use their speed to make DPS

 

This are only my thoughts. Do you also thing that in short fights battleships should kill anything which appears nearby? If yes what are your suggestions as regards balancing this buff?

Buffing torpedoes doesn't really work well. You see the problem with DDs on high tiers is not that their torps do little damage, it's that they don't hit.

 

Secondaries are fine as is. They autoaim, they shouldn't do your job - if you want something killed 100% use your main guns - game should not devolve to afk damage farming.

[mtm78]

 

I think that everyone here understand the importance of scouting.

 

The problem is that it is not rewarded.

 

Why should I go forward in my farragut to scout, and expose me to being spotted by fighters, or IJN destroyers, and focused by cruisers just because I'm the first thing spotted? I won't get any reward, not for spotting, not for damage done because of my spotting.

 

And the risks are really high.

 

No thanks, I can wait till the cruisers and BB just show themselves firing at other BB or cruisers.

 

If I were awarded with exp and credits for taking risks, then I would scout.

 

As it is now, I don't.

 

This is true, but I will still hate you for it during a game where I would rely on my USN DD's to attack IJN DD's instead of sometimes being even behind my cruiser trying to get gun damage. Or better, as it's not in any way personal, I would hate that particular DD captain, as well as WG for not rewarding important team play aspects ( CA's getting more XP for shooting down planes and preventing damage to their BB's, DD's for initial spotting ). Note I said initial since most engagements that is the only thing you'll see as after their first shot most ships would stay visible during the entire engagement. 

[Kruzenstern]

Secondaries are fine as is. They autoaim, they shouldn't do your job - if you want something killed 100% use your main guns - game should not devolve to afk damage farming.

 

The way secondaries are right now, they might as well not exist at all. I used to play a brawling Nagato in CBT and the secondaries were actually useful at both scaring off DDs and supporting your main guns against larger ships. Now I recently reached the Nagato again and specced it for secondaries again, and boy.... it basically does nothing. The shots go all over the place, and the only danger for a DD getting close to me is the DDs skipper running aground because he is busy laughing about my secondaries... And even against other BBs they hardly ever hit and even if they do more often than not there is no damage. When I play DD, secondaries are not even a consideration anymore when I approach a BB, even one with supposedly good secondaries like the Nagato.

 

They may or may not have been OP in CBT (I think not but thats just me and I am not even a hardcore BB player...), but right now they are definitely UP and deserve an accuracy buff. At the same time they need to buff DDs back towards what they were in CBT as well though, some of those nerfs were ridiculous.

[red_eye1980]

This is a rock paper scissor arcade game. Because of the abscence of Uboats, BBs and scouting are the main food/role of DDs. If you buff the secondaries, then DDs will have hardly any point of existence and none will play them. Also CAs will become obsolete to an extend as the BBs secondaries alone would outmatch the CAs primaries. The BBs should be behind the CAs, the CAs behind the DDs and that's how a battle line goes. When I say behind I don't mean at the spawn zone lol.

 

Basically the game works as it is just fine. Yeah it needs a few changes, but making DDs obsolete is not one of them

[combattank]

 

once again i am not talking about your gun. Everything in life has luck inside it. At chess if you fail to see your opponent's trap you lose. If you fail to see a DD's trap YOU LOSE. 

"my gun skills and awarness"

I m gonna stop you right there. If a DD got into the range where you think your guns should blow him away you failed as a battleship captain. 

RNG doesnt decide anything. I can compare chess to battleship gameplay because they arent diffrent. You walk into the trap of a DD? Well then dont expect to win against it unless you are lucky enough for your opponent to not see the escape door.

 

Dont expect WG to protect noob battleship captains more. 

 

 

Yes even chess has randomness. There are trillions of move. 

 

You have no clue what randomness is. Chess has no randomness at all as it it defined by set of deterministic rules & you can see whole map all the time. There is no luck factor at all, only your own carelessness.

In WoWs you rely on buggy spotting mechanics & mostly on your [edited] teammates to give you such information, so there is absolutely NO (0,000000000000000000000000000000000) similarity with chess in WoWs!

If you fall into trap in Chess, it is ALWAYS your fault, not so in WoWs. (BTW you are comparing a team game with 1v1 game -- EPIC FAIL)

 

But to not derail topic even more, the reason that manual secondary gunning cant be ballanced is COMPLETE AND UTTER [edited]!! With proper testing & adjustments it absolutely CAN, just adjust the average DPS accordingly! And it can be much more fun than watching AI hit everything but the target! It may have even the opposite effect as manual guns will not alert BB captain of DD's presence.

[red_eye1980]

If you rely on your BB secondaries to be alarmed about dds presence, you re definitely doing something wrong lol. How about they buffed accuracy by 10 - 15% but they only work when you cntrl click on something, which you can only do when it is within their range and have to do it again when it gets out of range? I wanna see how many captains forget to do it.

[Vanhal]

What many don't realize is how powerful secondaries are on high tiers. Too much powerful I'd even say.

 

That's precisly the reason to balance them. Leave or nerf at high tiers (dont have an idea, only 8 tiers i own are NC and Tirpitz where secondaries are equally useless than on low tiers) and buff them considerably on low tiers, this would have both the effect of making them useful, ending the "buff secondaries" thread flood and at the same time buffing the underperforming low tier BB's.

 

Because this:

I don't even bother to manually target secondaries any more waste of time as they almost never hit anything anyway, I've had games where they've fired 200+ shots and hit 2-3 times at most.

 

Is really common and boring. Especially at game where 7-9 km is almost impossibly to miss knife fight-range and those guns have range... of 3-5km.

[Userext]

You have no clue what randomness is. Chess has no randomness at all as it it defined by set of deterministic rules & you can see whole map all the time. There is no luck factor at all, only your own carelessness.

In WoWs you rely on buggy spotting mechanics & mostly on your[edited] teammates to give you such information, so there is absolutely NO (0,000000000000000000000000000000000) similarity with chess in WoWs!

If you fall into trap in Chess, it is ALWAYS your fault, not so in WoWs. (BTW you are comparing a team game with 1v1 game -- EPIC FAIL)

 

But to not derail topic even more, the reason that manual secondary gunning cant be ballanced is COMPLETE AND UTTER [edited]!! With proper testing & adjustments it absolutely CAN, just adjust the average DPS accordingly! And it can be much more fun than watching AI hit everything but the target! It may have even the opposite effect as manual guns will not alert BB captain of DD's presence.

 

Oh look another empty skull...

 

Do you know the word luck? It exist everywhere in life. "Chess doesnt have RNG!" Do you even know whats RNG? Its a system based on luck. Chess has luck system. How? Well i dont know maybe because i know the history of chess. You can search on internet. Best chess player in the world beats a computer. How can a human beat a computer? Was it skill? Oh come on a human brain against a computer that is designed to create best moves against his opponents moves.... That my friend is luck.

 

"ITS NOT LUCK ITS YOUR FAULT!!" 

So you jumped on a DD captains' lap and you say this? Oh the irony

 

Also dont take words out of my sentences and make castle out of them filled with your lies. Battleship gameplay is a lot like chess. You start with a bad move its hard ot recover. Please oh please dont even think about making assumptions over chess. Its obvious that you dont play chess.

 

You have a brain use it. Your brain is more effective than secondaries. Are you going to complain about life relying on too much luck? 

[Kruzenstern]

This is a rock paper scissor arcade game. Because of the abscence of Uboats, BBs and scouting are the main food/role of DDs. If you buff the secondaries, then DDs will have hardly any point of existence and none will play them. Also CAs will become obsolete to an extend as the BBs secondaries alone would outmatch the CAs primaries. The BBs should be behind the CAs, the CAs behind the DDs and that's how a battle line goes. When I say behind I don't mean at the spawn zone lol.

 

Basically the game works as it is just fine. Yeah it needs a few changes, but making DDs obsolete is not one of them

 

I don't want secondaries to instasink DDs that venture into their range. But I do want them to at least pose a threat to DDs when they get too close, not to just be a source for a good laugh. And against cruisers and especially other BBs they need a serious accuracy buff as well, since they don't seem to hit the larger ships any better than the DDs... As for buffing DDs, they need to do that by giving something to DDs (like buffing smoke back to where it once was), not by taking something away from BBs...

[combattank]

 

[edited]

 

Do you know the word luck? It exist everywhere in life. "Chess doesnt have RNG!" Do you even know whats RNG? Its a system based on luck. Chess has luck system. How? Well i dont know maybe because i know the history of chess. You can search on internet. Best chess player in the world beats a computer. How can a human beat a computer? Was it skill? Oh come on a human brain against a computer that is designed to create best moves against his opponents moves.... That my friend is luck.

 

"ITS NOT LUCK ITS YOUR FAULT!!" 

So you jumped on a DD captains' lap and you say this? Oh the irony

 

Also dont take words out of my sentences and make castle out of them filled with your lies. Battleship gameplay is a lot like chess. You start with a bad move its hard ot recover. Please oh please dont even think about making assumptions over chess. Its obvious that you dont play chess.

 

You have a brain use it. Your brain is more effective than secondaries. Are you going to complain about life relying on too much luck? 

 

It was not luck but imperfections in the computer program & technological limits (even the best supercomputer cant predict infinite moves). Even the best AI has to be programend by someone. It is rather inability to predict infinite ammount of moves into the future.

In chess you ALWAYS have the information to make your moves, you know where your and your opponent's army is & you know EXACTLY where opponent can move & see his move in real time. This does not apply to WoWs, you can't avoid something you can't see. Every player can move wherever he wants. Also you have to depend on a team contary to chess, so completely avoiding encounters with DDs would most likely mean camping base 24/7 & even that is not 100%. Chess is also a perfectly ballanced game, nothing that can be said about WoWs MM & some maps (STRAIT=[edited])! Sometimes you do not have to make a bad move to get into situation that is hard to recover from. You just spawned on the wrong side of [edited] with a slow Colorado.

So it is like playing chess blind while your opponent will not report his moves as he does them & with starting positions randomly generated.

If secondaries were redundant cause good players will never need them they would not be in the game & WG would not promote their use: http://worldofwarships.eu/en/news/common/bad-advice-battleships/ (#2)

 

If you rely on your BB secondaries to be alarmed about dds presence, you re definitely doing something wrong lol. How about they buffed accuracy by 10 - 15% but they only work when you cntrl click on something, which you can only do when it is within their range and have to do it again when it gets out of range? I wanna see how many captains forget to do it.

 

Never heard of "Tunnel vision"? Even the best can fall to it, especially when leading shots on <20Km.

Im not asking for buffing secondaries, but making their effectivity depend on skill instead of RNG/AI, is it so god damn hard to understand?!?

^^^^

Then there are CVs, which have to completely depend on luck when defending itself. Enabling manual secondaries for those would be a good start.

[Vanhal]

 

Im not asking for buffing secondaries, but making their effectivity depend on skill instead of RNG/AI, is it so god damn hard to understand?!?

^^^^

 

Except that even the worst tomato in game have accuracy higher than those secondaries, so making them depending on skill would be huge buff by itself - if they shoot like the cruiser guns, even without the cruiser range their accuracy would skyrocket by 1000% easily.

Thus if WG decided on the current model, they should buff them, both in range and accuracy, because they are useless mechanics right now. At least buff them to CBT values.

[Userext]

 

It was not luck but imperfections in the computer program & technological limits (even the best supercomputer cant predict infinite moves). Even the best AI has to be programend by someone. It is rather inability to predict infinite ammount of moves into the future.

In chess you ALWAYS have the information to make your moves, you know where your and your opponent's army is & you know EXACTLY where opponent can move & see his move in real time. This does not apply to WoWs, you can't avoid something you can't see. Every player can move wherever he wants. Also you have to depend on a team contary to chess, so completely avoiding encounters with DDs would most likely mean camping base 24/7 & even that is not 100%. Chess is also a perfectly ballanced game, nothing that can be said about WoWs MM & some maps (STRAIT=[edited])! Sometimes you do not have to make a bad move to get into situation that is hard to recover from. You just spawned on the wrong side of [edited] with a slow Colorado.

So it is like playing chess blind while your opponent will not report his moves as he does them & with starting positions randomly generated.

If secondaries were redundant cause good players will never need them they would not be in the game & WG would not promote their use: http://worldofwarships.eu/en/news/common/bad-advice-battleships/ (#2)

 

It does apply to wows. Its your problem if you cant play the game good. If you cant follow the battle in a freaking slow [edited]battleship you should just quit. Battleship is the 2nd highest situational awarness potential class. You can fail to follow the map and all other information game gives you in a CA or DD when you are under fire but that does not exist for battleships. You can stand in your place without worrying too much. And if you still fail to have a good situational awarness dont complain about the game.

 

Never heard of "Tunnel vision"? Even the best can fall to it, especially when leading shots on <20Km.

Im not asking for buffing secondaries, but making their effectivity depend on skill instead of RNG/AI, is it so god damn hard to understand?!?

^^^^

Then there are CVs, which have to completely depend on luck when defending itself. Enabling manual secondaries for those would be a good start.

 

So you are asking for a buff to secondaries and you also think they should reinforce the weak walls a battleship has?

my god you are ignorant. You dont ask for balance in game you ask for a OP class. Dont mix balance and OP together. 

 

The last line just makes me laugh. CVs are completly luck on defending itself? get this guy out of here

[philjd]

I had some good use of my secondaries on my Warspite last night - the first time I have seen secondaries being effective since Beta (but not played much in this launched version as yet, so not a good guide to secondaries in general).

[combattank]

 

It does apply to wows. Its your problem if you cant play the game good. If you cant follow the battle in a freaking slow [edited]battleship you should just quit. Battleship is the 2nd highest situational awarness potential class. You can fail to follow the map and all other information game gives you in a CA or DD when you are under fire but that does not exist for battleships. You can stand in your place without worrying too much. And if you still fail to have a good situational awarness dont complain about the game.

 

 

So you are asking for a buff to secondaries and you also think they should reinforce the weak walls a battleship has?

my god you are ignorant. You dont ask for balance in game you ask for a OP class. Dont mix balance and OP together. 

 

The last line just makes me laugh. CVs are completly luck on defending itself? get this guy out of here

 

So what exactly should I do in 18kt ship when whole my team is almost 2 times faster & decide to leave me here alone??? Guess I have to take out that 4 CAs & 1 BB myself, as running is barely an option??? MM can simply put you to situation where there are only bad options.

 

AGAIN Im not asking to buff them, but to make them manually controlled & then adjust their stats accordingly based on testing to keep the game ballanced, but i guess it too much for your tiny brain to take.

NavyField 2 has prooved it is possible to do while keeping game ballanced & all classes viable. So saying it can't be done is bollocks as it has already been done!

[Exocet6951]

 

AGAIN Im not asking to buff them, but to make them manually controlled & then adjust their stats accordingly based on testing to keep the game ballanced, but i guess it too much for your tiny brain to take.

NavyField 2 has prooved it is possible to do while keeping game ballanced & all classes viable. So saying it can't be done is bollocks as it has already been done!

 

Asking them to be manually controlled is a buff.

If you decided to read what people wrote, you woul finally understand.

 

NavyField isn't an arcade game, is it? Navy Field isn't 5 battleships per team, with 7 or so cruisers and 3 destroyers. If WoWS had authentic ship line-ups, and the number of battleships was limited to two, like CVs, then yes, allowing their secondaries to be manually controlled would be justified.

But allowing a class that's supposed to be equal to the others of the same tier, and completely unlimited in terms of numbers per battle, to basically have a 50% boost in damage is utterly insane.

[Echelon2k]

AGAIN Im not asking to buff them, but to make them manually controlled & then adjust their stats accordingly based on testing to keep the game ballanced, but i guess it too much for your tiny brain to take.

NavyField 2 has prooved it is possible to do while keeping game ballanced & all classes viable. So saying it can't be done is bollocks as it has already been done!

 

Manual control for secondaries is highly doubtful. it was tested early in alpha i believe and WG had good reason not to implement it imo.

Personally i can only think of very few ways to somewhat balance manual secondaries:

1. reduce their damage to absurd amounts as even the worst gunner would hit a destroyer pretty easy at these short ranges

2. severly limit their firearcs to artificially lower the accuracy

3. extermely low rate of fire to increase the chances or survival for a DD approaching

 

On the other hand you could make them semi skill dependant. For example crtl-clicking a ship would not only focus the secondaries on that target but also increase accuracy. Or it could be something similar to the torpedo aiming where you would define a small arc in which their accuracy would be buffed - think of this as pre-aiming.

[Userext]

 

So what exactly should I do in 18kt ship when whole my team is almost 2 times faster & decide to leave me here alone??? Guess I have to take out that 4 CAs & 1 BB myself, as running is barely an option??? MM can simply put you to situation where there are only bad options.

 

AGAIN Im not asking to buff them, but to make them manually controlled & then adjust their stats accordingly based on testing to keep the game ballanced, but i guess it too much for your tiny brain to take.

NavyField 2 has prooved it is possible to do while keeping game ballanced & all classes viable. So saying it can't be done is bollocks as it has already been done!

 

well i dont know maybe surface? 18 knots speed? Who? which ship does that? Buddy if you suck and expect your team to have telepathical lines its your fault. Oh you got a bad team? deal with it. 

 

You are asking for a buff in alpha stage of wows they did make secondaries fairly accurate and they didnt like the way BBs became too powerfull. Also navyfield 2? that garbage? Yeah sure why dont they also bring submarines too huh?

 

If you have a problem with the game because the class you play isnt OP dont cry here. 

[combattank]

 

Manual control for secondaries is highly doubtful. it was tested early in alpha i believe and WG had good reason not to implement it imo.

Personally i can only think of very few ways to somewhat balance manual secondaries:

1. reduce their damage to absurd amounts as even the worst gunner would hit a destroyer pretty easy at these short ranges

2. severly limit their firearcs to artificially lower the accuracy

3. extermely low rate of fire to increase the chances or survival for a DD approaching

 

On the other hand you could make them semi skill dependant. For example crtl-clicking a ship would not only focus the secondaries on that target but also increase accuracy. Or it could be something similar to the torpedo aiming where you would define a small arc in which their accuracy would be buffed - think of this as pre-aiming.

 

Or just combine a little of 1, 2 & 3 and bang! With proper adjustments it can be done.

 

 

Asking them to be manually controlled is a buff.

If you decided to read what people wrote, you woul finally understand.

If you did read my post, you would notice that together with manual control there would be stat adjustments for secondaries to "bring them in line" based on average player hit ratios. So yes there will be players that get more out of them & players that get less. It more or less is same now, except it would be based on skill instead of a chance.

 

 

You are asking for a buff in alpha stage of wows they did make secondaries fairly accurate and they didnt like the way BBs became too powerfull. 

 

So instead of proper testing & adjustments they patched their own incopetence with RNG!!!

[Userext]

So instead of proper testing & adjustments they patched their own incopetence with RNG!!!

 

No, they just did not want BB captains who are super good to be better. It breaks the game balance when you free players from limits. RNG is the only way to keep game in a fun mode. Yeah it would be fun if you would have 12 kills every battle with milions of damage but it would be fun only for you.

 

Tell me why would people play other ships if this one ship is super OP? I am not saying secondaries on manual would make the ship super OP but it would let better players crash others. Right now with "bad secondaries" there is a guy named HamburgerSV in his montana with 260k max damage. Guess what that would be if secondaries were manual

[Echelon2k]

 

Manual control for secondaries is highly doubtful. it was tested early in alpha i believe and WG had good reason not to implement it imo.

Personally i can only think of very few ways to somewhat balance manual secondaries:

1. reduce their damage to absurd amounts as even the worst gunner would hit a destroyer pretty easy at these short ranges

2. severly limit their firearcs to artificially lower the accuracy

3. extermely low rate of fire to increase the chances or survival for a DD approaching

 

On the other hand you could make them semi skill dependant. For example crtl-clicking a ship would not only focus the secondaries on that target but also increase accuracy. Or it could be something similar to the torpedo aiming where you would define a small arc in which their accuracy would be buffed - think of this as pre-aiming.

 

 

Or just combine a little of 1, 2 & 3 and bang! With proper adjustments it can be done.

 

Yes you could balance them for manual use with these. However this would take an absurd amount of time (should have made this point in the original post tbh ^^). And it would slow down developement of future content - for example the Royal Navy - as every new balance factor increases the time until any ship is considered ready for release.

 

Remeber WG has no baseline on how manual secondaries could be balanced. So they would be either extremely OP at first or extremely UP and then the balance pendulum would have to swing for quite some time before everybody could say they are "balanced". Same things happened to ship-launched torpedos almost the entire CBT phase, which i still do not consider finished as they are OP in low tiers but loose considerable usability in higher tiers. And this is one of the games coremechanics.

 

We might see manual secondaries happen some time in the future but for now i can't see that happening without considerable relocating of resources/manpower for something that doesn't generate much revenue.

 

[combattank]

 

No, they just did not want BB captains who are super good to be better. It breaks the game balance when you free players from limits. RNG is the only way to keep game in a fun mode. Yeah it would be fun if you would have 12 kills every battle with milions of damage but it would be fun only for you.

 

Tell me why would people play other ships if this one ship is super OP? I am not saying secondaries on manual would make the ship super OP but it would let better players crash others. Right now with "bad secondaries" there is a guy named HamburgerSV in his montana with 260k max damage. Guess what that would be if secondaries were manual

 

Translation: Skill = OP, we don't want skill to be a factor in WoWs!

 

 

 

Yes you could balance them for manual use with these. However this would take an absurd amount of time (should have made this point in the original post tbh ^^). And it would slow down developement of future content - for example the Royal Navy - as every new balance factor increases the time until any ship is considered ready for release.

 

Remeber WG has no baseline on how manual secondaries could be balanced. So they would be either extremely OP at first or extremely UP and then the balance pendulum would have to swing for quite some time before everybody could say they are "balanced". Same things happened to ship-launched torpedos almost the entire CBT phase, which i still do not consider finished as they are OP in low tiers but loose considerable usability in higher tiers. And this is one of the games coremechanics.

 

We might see manual secondaries happen some time in the future but for now i can't see that happening without considerable relocating of resources/manpower for something that doesn't generate much revenue.

 

 

WG pretty much already collect stats needed to make rough adjustments. Many ships also have similar secondary layouts (like NY, NM, Colorado are pretty much the same), so that cuts down the ammount of unique combinations. Public beta tests for major updates takes more than 3 weeks, that is hell a lot of time to collect necessary data.

If WG plans to implement pre-dreadnough battleships, they better got this feature ready as those ships relied on secondary guns a lot! Unless they plan from beggining to fill the trees with useless turds to force people to buy freeXP.

[Userext]

Translation: Skill = OP, we don't want skill to be a factor in WoWs!

 

Nope. What you are asking for is not skill. Its completly nonsense. There are so many other options you can chose instead of easy way secondary. They just simply dont want to make playing battleships easier. They are already the 2nd most easy class(CA-BB-CV-DD). Why dont you ask for realistic main battery controll then? Having an invisable spy glass that can automatically calculate the angle of your guns from 200 meters above ship is just nonsense. It removes the skill out of BB gameplay

[combattank]

 

Nope. What you are asking for is not skill. Its completly nonsense. There are so many other options you can chose instead of easy way secondary. They just simply dont want to make playing battleships easier. They are already the 2nd most easy class(CA-BB-CV-DD). Why dont you ask for realistic main battery controll then? Having an invisable spy glass that can automatically calculate the angle of your guns from 200 meters above ship is just nonsense. It removes the skill out of BB gameplay

 

Easier? Like srsly!!

How can manual fire be easier than CTRL-click stupid mechanics we have now??? The only nonsense here is you!