How to balance secondaries?

[mtm78]

DD is least affected class, no sane DD captain will sail straight lines even without the aim mod being there.

[Mayv]

I dont see secondaries being buffed with the current game design.

 

Look at the Kongo for example it has a secondary armament of 14 152mm guns and 4x2 127mm guns. She has a greater broadside with her secondaries than the Kuma (7 140mm guns, max 6 on a target) which is one tier lower. The Omaha at tier 5 has 12 155mm guns at most, and can only use a max of 8 at a time.

[combattank]

Didn't they try manual secondaries in the alpha and found that it as too gamebraking and OP?

 

Only prooves that they are incopetent codebuggers unable to make a single thig right.

What would be OP exacly? It would only make game less accesible for IQ<60 demography WG is targeting! e.g. Russians!

[mtm78]

 

Only prooves that they are incopetent codebuggers unable to make a single thig right.

What would be OP exacly? It would only make game less accesible for IQ<60 demography WG is targeting! e.g. Russians!

 

BB's have often stronger secondary guns then equal tier cruisers, you don't see an issue with those being under manual control? Even more accurate AI secondaries make some BB's incredibly OP since no DD would be able to get close to it.

[combattank]

 

BB's have often stronger secondary guns then equal tier cruisers, you don't see an issue with those being under manual control? Even more accurate AI secondaries make some BB's incredibly OP since no DD would be able to get close to it.

 

NavyField 2 have done it, DDs still perfectly playable.

NO TO RNG!

[Wizzmann_zeOrbitalStrike]

 

NavyField 2 have done it, DDs still perfectly playable.

 

Ehm yeah, and you had BBs with 3 kind of guns that were a nightmare to shoot with.

[mtm78]

 

NavyField 2 have done it, DDs still perfectly playable.

NO TO RNG!

 

This isn't NavyField and it never will be. If you don't want any RNG, what do you call gun dispersion?

[combattank]

 

This isn't NavyField and it never will be. If you don't want any RNG, what do you call gun dispersion?

 

Less RNG the better.

Dispersion randomness is unavoidable as it sort of represent reality, AI shooting your guns is not!

Until you provide OBJECTIVE reason why it works in NF2 while it can't work here, this discussion is pointless.

& aiming from isometric view in NF is much easier so not this "reason".

[Wischmob_von_Eimer]

This topic is, as allways, no detailed enough.

 

On the one hand you have low tiers, where secondarys are useless and DD walk the battlefield like gods, on the other hand you have high tiers, where secondarys destroy you in seconds and DD become just another victim.

 

The problem is not secondarys in general but the whole, completely fucked up, balance of the game. We have no balance in low tiers and none in high, but for completely different reasons. Yes, we need a buff for low tier secondarys, but we also need a nerf for the high tier ones.

 

Same goes propably for AA, wich is a joke on tier 4 (tier 1 ships have better AA...) but a death zone at tier 10.

 

 

So, simply asking whether something is op or not is wrong, because everything becomes OP and UP, depending on the tierlevel you are looking at.

[Comrad_StaIin]

You could make them player controled if they have the crap accuracy they habe now

[Talladega_Night]

 

Only prooves that they are incopetent codebuggers unable to make a single thig right.

What would be OP exacly? It would only make game less accesible for IQ<60 demography WG is targeting! e.g. Russians!

 

Nice, insulting an entire group of people, what a great way to get a point across.

 

Secondaries are fine, only people who are on low health and are derpy enough to approach a battleship will die from secondaries. my Warspite did 10k dmg just with secondary's one match. A Cleaveland charged me i thin with intent to ram, by the time he got within 50 yards he was dead.

[combattank]

 

Nice, insulting an entire group of people, what a great way to get a point across.

 

Secondaries are fine, only people who are on low health and are derpy enough to approach a battleship will die from secondaries. my Warspite did 10k dmg just with secondary's one match. A Cleaveland charged me i thin with intent to ram, by the time he got within 50 yards he was dead.

 

But RNG decides if they die before, or after they have torped you!!!

[dwenzler]

If you want a somewhat historical game DDs should not hunt BBs at all...

 

They should hunt submarines or rather escort allies to protect them from submarines ( and for US ones also AA ), as well as being in front scouting to detect the enemy before you are detected.

 

 

 

The only time during WW2 that a destroyer did considerable damage to a combat worthy Battleship was during surigao strait when 28 destroyers and 39 torpedo boats used cover of darkness to lay in wait for 2 approaching Battleships sailing in a straight line...

 

In reality a destroyer would be detected from 20km away in clear weather and secondaries would open up if they approached within 15-20 km of a Battleship, so it was an act of suicide or extreme desperation to attack Battleships with a single or small number of destroyers unless visibility was very limited.

 

Well there where also several other instances where DD' scored torpedo hits on BB or against fleets with BB's in it.

 

- during the sinking of Glorious on of the Twins took a torpedo hit from the two destroyer that where screening Glorious.

 

- Glowworm was able to ramm rhe CA Hipper

 

- A british Dd flotilla sank a japanese CA in the straith of mallacca in 1945

 

- Scharnhost was torpedoed during Northcape (albeith she had already taken some serious pounding from BB and cruiser guns)

 

- At Samar a flotilla of us DD's and DE's (together with asisting airplanes from the escort carriers) turned back a whole japanese Fleet which included the migthy Yamato. While no BB was hit, several Cruisers got badly mauled or sunk by them.

 

And this list was just from the top of my head. There are for sure more instances where DD's pulled their weight against bigger warships.

 

[Userext]

 

But RNG decides if they die before, or after they have torped you!!!

 

No its not RNG. If you suck at chess dont expect a shield around your king. This is like whining about RNG when you pushed your king too close to enemy lines.

[Tivook]

What it all boils down to is that this game offers faaaaaar too many things that aid the bad players.

 

A game should favor those who are good players because that's what games ultimately are, a competitive environment just for fun.

 

So things like:

 

1: Automatic secondary batteries that randomly hit ( a DD can sail up and kill you without a scratch and sometimes he'll get smoked by the secondaries ) are bad.

2: Automatic reef avoidance system; can be turned off but should not exist at all. It only favors players who have no sense of multitasking, bad idea.

3: Autopilot is also something that doesn't belong in a multiplayer game, only makes it easier to make a bot seem real.

4: Artillery raining down completely randomly, shots can hit and miss even though the aim was exactly the same.

 

Randomness and automatic gameplay is bad. M'kay?

 

[Eviscerador]

What it all boils down to is that this game offers faaaaaar too many things that aid the bad players.

 

A game should favor those who are good players because that's what games ultimately are, a competitive environment just for fun.

 

So things like:

 

1: Automatic secondary batteries that randomly hit ( a DD can sail up and kill you without a scratch and sometimes he'll get smoked by the secondaries ) are bad.

2: Automatic reef avoidance system; can be turned off but should not exist at all. It only favors players who have no sense of multitasking, bad idea.

3: Autopilot is also something that doesn't belong in a multiplayer game, only makes it easier to make a bot seem real.

4: Artillery raining down completely randomly, shots can hit and miss even though the aim was exactly the same.

 

Randomness and automatic gameplay is bad. M'kay?

 

1. Manual secondary batteries would be OP. Come on, it is like having an Omaha on top of your 16 inch guns. No DD will ever come close. This is not supposed to be a simulator, but an arcade game. I would accept manual secondaries if BB cap was 1 per game, the rest cruisers and DD.
2. Automatic crash avoidance does more harm than good. Most good captains have it disabled.
3. Autopilot is neither good or bad. You can still steer manually, so I don't get your point here. I would love everyone used autopilot. Easy and juicy targets!
4. Do you know that real life accuracy was much, much, but MUCH worse than in the game? 3% hits was superb!

[warlock07rox]

Ok the main guns may have a higher hit rate in game but that makes up for the secondaries that cant hit a thing at  3 km they just fire all over the screen and no where near the enemy ship, they are no use at keeping  Dds at bay.

[combattank]

 

No its not RNG. If you suck at chess dont expect a shield around your king. This is like whining about RNG when you pushed your king too close to enemy lines.

 

Combaring WoWs to Chess? A GAME WITH NO RANDOMNESS AT ALL?!?

And how are manually controled guns compared to a shield exactly???? It just replace luck with actual skill!

ONCE AGAIN:

Why it should be RNG what decides if DD jumping on me die or not INSTEAD of my own gunning skill & awareness???

[Eviscerador]

Ok the main guns may have a higher hit rate in game but that makes up for the secondaries that cant hit a thing at  3 km they just fire all over the screen and no where near the enemy ship, they are no use at keeping  Dds at bay.

You have answered yourself.

 

Secondaries are meant for finishing damaged ships, and set other ships on fire.

 

If you are being assaulted by a DD, you have more than enough time to just fire at the little bugger 2 or 3 times, and even then, you can see when he is firing the torpedoes and maneuver accordingly.

 

Of course, if the DD survive the gaunlet (and it is really hard to do) he deserves to get you fair and square.

[warlock07rox]

You have answered yourself.

 

Secondaries are meant for finishing damaged ships, and set other ships on fire.

 

If you are being assaulted by a DD, you have more than enough time to just fire at the little bugger 2 or 3 times, and even then, you can see when he is firing the torpedoes and maneuver accordingly.

 

Of course, if the DD survive the gaunlet (and it is really hard to do) he deserves to get you fair and square.

 

Yea but the secondaries are totally useless even against Bbs or cruisers that get close to duel It out they hardly ever hit they fire all over the screen and nowhere near the target and the range they have is laughable considering some of them are the same main guns on Dds and cruisers.

[Hauptbahnhof]

 

The real problem is that scouting is simply worthless. Aside from DDs nothing needs to be scouted. BBs can constantly see each other, especially if they are firing their guns. If scouting should be worth anything ships would need to be a lot harder to spot.

 

Just because you don't understand the value of scouting doesn't mean it's worthless...

 

The value of a forward destroyer is knowing if you 1 minute into the future will face just one lone Battleship that just fired on you and revealed himself, or if there actually is 2 more BBs just out of range not visible yet and they are escorted by 4 Cruisers. Or knowing if there is a big force obscured by an island that will be comming around a corner in a few min.

 

This knowledge is vital for you to take the right course of action... If it's a lone enemy you can push and probably win, capture points or put pressure on the enemy team. If its the main enemy force and you try to push your dead very quickly.

[Userext]

 

Combaring WoWs to Chess? A GAME WITH NO RANDOMNESS AT ALL?!?

And how are manually controled guns compared to a shield exactly???? It just replace luck with actual skill!

ONCE AGAIN:

Why it should be RNG what decides if DD jumping on me die or not INSTEAD of my own gunning skill & awareness???

 

once again i am not talking about your gun. Everything in life has luck inside it. At chess if you fail to see your opponent's trap you lose. If you fail to see a DD's trap YOU LOSE. 

"my gun skills and awarness"

I m gonna stop you right there. If a DD got into the range where you think your guns should blow him away you failed as a battleship captain. 

RNG doesnt decide anything. I can compare chess to battleship gameplay because they arent diffrent. You walk into the trap of a DD? Well then dont expect to win against it unless you are lucky enough for your opponent to not see the escape door.

 

Dont expect WG to protect noob battleship captains more. 

 

 

Yes even chess has randomness. There are trillions of move. 

[inAbag]

You have answered yourself.

 

Secondaries are meant for finishing damaged ships, and set other ships on fire.

 

If you are being assaulted by a DD, you have more than enough time to just fire at the little bugger 2 or 3 times, and even then, you can see when he is firing the torpedoes and maneuver accordingly.

 

Of course, if the DD survive the gaunlet (and it is really hard to do) he deserves to get you fair and square.

 

Not really. If you are being assaulted by a DD in close range you have to start maneuvering like crazy. You don't have time to aim your guns propperly nor can you since you have to turn your broadside away from him to have the most optimal chance of avoiding his torpedos. So you only have 50% of your firepower available at best.

 

Second of all at close range your main turrets often turn too slow to propperly get an aim on a DD in time. If it's also a fast little bugger and he maneuvers in the opposite direction your guns will never catch up to him.

 

And last but not least you will have AP loaded into your guns and not HE. Meaning that your first salvo will either do minimal damage or you spend 30 seconds reloading to HE.

 

Secondaries on BBs used to be worth something back in CBT, especially on the Nagato which could be transformed into a pretty good brawler with upgrades to secondaries. Nowadays it's just not worth it to specialize your BB in having good secondaries. Secondaries used to be something that would make an enemy think twice before getting too close to you. Nowadays they are worthless, if you are lucky you will set an enemy on fire with it, but that's about it. Don't expect to actually do damage with them. They are too inaccurate.

[Eviscerador]

 

Just because you don't understand the value of scouting doesn't mean it's worthless...

 

The value of a forward destroyer is knowing if you 1 minute into the future will face just one lone Battleship that just fired on you and revealed himself, or if there actually is 2 more BBs just out of range not visible yet and they are escorted by 4 Cruisers. Or knowing if there is a big force obscured by an island that will be comming around a corner in a few min.

 

This knowledge is vital for you to take the right course of action... If it's a lone enemy you can push and probably win, capture points or put pressure on the enemy team. If its the main enemy force and you try to push your dead very quickly.

 

I think that everyone here understand the importance of scouting.

 

The problem is that it is not rewarded.

 

Why should I go forward in my farragut to scout, and expose me to being spotted by fighters, or IJN destroyers, and focused by cruisers just because I'm the first thing spotted? I won't get any reward, not for spotting, not for damage done because of my spotting.

 

And the risks are really high.

 

No thanks, I can wait till the cruisers and BB just show themselves firing at other BB or cruisers.

 

If I were awarded with exp and credits for taking risks, then I would scout.

 

As it is now, I don't.

[philjd]

If you want a somewhat historical game DDs should not hunt BBs at all...

 

They should hunt submarines or rather escort allies to protect them from submarines ( and for US ones also AA ), as well as being in front scouting to detect the enemy before you are detected.

 

Actually, this is the timeline in reverse.

 

What we class as DD's (Destroyers), were developed initially as Torpedo Boat Destroyers - just a shortened name - TBDs were developed as a counter to Torpedo Boats (NOT MOTOR torpedo boats, or MTB's). Torpedo Boats were developed as a 'poor mans navy' counter to BB's (or rather what we call Pre-Dreadnoughts these days).

This is because you could build quite number of torpedo boats which. theoretically, were capable of taking out the enemies BB's and were a lot cheaper to build, using less expertise etc etc.

 

Destroyers existed long before submarines did (well, about 10-15 years IIRC).

TBD = larger and with more guns, but less torpedo's than a TB.