[Discuss] The viability of High level DD play.

[SXLightning]

Hi all, SXLightning here.

 

I am a dedicated DD player and after 400 games I have finally reached the Kagero. I had some terriable win rate when i started playing because I divisioned with my friend who was already T6-7. It was probably not the best idea and I accumulated a win rate of about 20~30%. It is during this time that I decided to play the DD. I was a fun experience till the minekaze. 

 

However, I will get to the point. T6-T8 are some of the worst experiences and finally getting the Kagero makes me feel that the pain I went through is worth it. I do not know if its because I got better at the game or the Kagero is just a better ship. I am currently on the stock 15km, even without captain skills because his retraining. This ship just feels much better.

 

I am committed to getting the shimakaze. However, I do not see many youtubers making videos for actual game play for the high level JPN DDs. I am thinking of making some tutorial guides and demonstrate some tactics of how to play high level DD so the grind for others become easier. If someone already does that then please tell me so I don't make duplicate videos.

 

I feel that when i started, T2-T5 vs T6-T8 play style is a huge change and it took me many hundreds of games to finally adjust to it. I am not saying I am now a good player, (I am not, my stats suck). I am a very greedy player. You can probably see from my survival rate which is like 66%. 

 

I have seen a few guides here and there but there is no consolidated knowledge and I would really like to call out to all the DD players out there to help build up a knowledge bank for the new players that are about to join on the 17th. 

 

TL;DR we need more guides and videos on high level DD play.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read this

 

SXL

 

Problems in the High tiers

1. Too many planes on high tier, perma spotted or torps being spotted form miles away.

2. No reward for the things DD does.

3. Unreliable Toros at long ranges (torp detect ability and speed).

4. Cost of running a DD.

5. Slow reload time, leading to less fun gameplay.

 

Tactics

1. Hide/Ambush  the only torp option for <T8 (USN) but IJN DD can also use this tactic.

2. Fire in a cone to increase the chance of a hitting a blob.

3. Fire while sitting in smoke is the other way to deal damage without receiving any.

4. Get range upgrade and fire but still stay invisible. +4km detection range when firing 127mm guns. You can do the math.  (only mostly applies to USN DD since you dont really want to fire you guns and the range on IJN DD are not very good.

5. USN DD now can get defensive fire??? not used it yet, it might be useful to at least push the planes away from you???

 

Solutions

There are plenty and many good ones listed by people but I will not discuss them here. I will focus on how to make the current DDs work, but a fix (buff) is defiantly needed.

[Userext]

You only played 10 battles in kagero. It was really painfull for me(in CBT). yes having 20km torpedoes is a big pack of happines with a side effect called not good enough. T6-7 IJNDDs need serious check up. Hatsuharu isnt too bad but again it isnt much of an improvement. 

 

Now i dared to look into your stats. They arent great you are around an average EU server DD captain. But i am going to call your kagero results for now just lucky day 

Fubuki isnt terrible but kagero was terrible for me. Its probably the best time to go through IJNDDs because of all the tirpitzs and mixed tier battles. *insert a grandpa voice*When i was playing with kagero everyone was at  high tiers. So it was mostly populated enough to show this thing's true power. IT SUCKED damn it IT SUCKED

 

But seriously kagero isnt a good DD in my eyes. I had 37k average damage with it at %10-%11 torpedo hit ratio. It was really expensive. 20km torpedoes cost 3600 credit per lancher(yes 900 credit per torpedo)

[VonVolks]

I finally have my captain skills activated on my Fubuki, so I will see how it goes.

 

I have done an IJN guide in the destroyer section and will update it with post patch and higher tier notes. However its my style guide of course not a definitive guide. (see link in sig)

 

In Non CV games at higher tiers DDs can still be fun. But with CVs in your game, especially the "DD hating" CVs, who look for your scalps first and perma sport you with fighters, its a lonely and hellish experience...

[Rich_B]

Don't forget the interminable stern chases because you're not fast enough to outstrip cruisers and carriers if they're chasing you, or catch them up if they're steaming away... I've unlocked but not yet bought the Kagero, but it looks every bit as painful in that respect as the Fubuki is. That said there is a certain masochistic pleasure in stringing half the enemy fleet out on a wild goose chase while you eke out enough tenths of a kilometre to be able to drop some more torps on them... I've won plenty of games in DDs because I've dragged their cruisers out of cap and to the far reaches of the map, distracting them long enough for assistance to arrive or for our fleet to cap it out.

[VonVolks]

Wow, I was just looking at some Kagero stats in port, and apart from the uber 2nd mod type 93 torps (20km range AND fast) it seems to suck hard.

 

35 knots, shorter range guns than the Fubuki, even when upgraded with slower ROF. 8(

 

Is there ANYTHING aside form those lovely torps that serve it well? Even the torps only have dual x 4  launchers cutting down on your options....

[rafparis]

Let's be honest, only shimakaze is a viable IJN DD... (After tier 5 of course).

It's fast (40 knots), good rudder time (3s), not bad cammo (5,9 km with all camo and perks), and 3x5 excellent torps.

The only good thing for the kagero is that it can have 5,4 km cammo (again with all perks and equipement), and that it have shimakaze torps, but only 8 instead of 15.

The most negative thing about these ships is the post battle costs... Around 1000 creds per torp, around 150 000 creds for repairs if you are destroyed.

[Rich_B]

Let's be honest, only shimakaze is a viable IJN DD... (After tier 5 of course).

 

My Fubuki would like words! 

 

 

Admittedly almost 50% of my games have been in destroyers, racking up 400/824 games so far. The Fubuki does crap cash as well at tier 8. When I finally get the tier 5 concealment skill for it I will be a very happy bunny. I'm training its replacement captain up for when he gets promoted to Kagero duty when I can finally afford to buy one...

[VonVolks]

ha, yeah the tier 5 concealment skill will arrive in about 15 months time for me.....

[Rich_B]

Apart from the difficulty of landing torp hits at higher tiers, the main issue for me is that the xp you get doesn't reflect the useful stuff you do for your team in a game. Xp for spotting damage would be a simplistic way of representing it, but you can work your [edited]off for llittle reward far too easily...

[SXLightning]

So basicly, to sum up everything everyone said:

 

1. Too many planes on high tier

2. No reward for the things DD does

3. Unreliable Toros at long ranges (torp detect ability and speed)

4. Cost of running a DD

I know these have been the problem for DDs since OBT. However there are a lot of benefits or little tricks most people don't know.

1. Firing your 127mm guns only increase your detect ability by ~4km. A lot of new players don't know this and it's not some stats openly avaliable. I had to look very hard to finally find these or to test them myself. I think making a guide/spreadsheet of these stats would be very useful. I found one someone made with all the gun ranges and another with all the detect ability after skill/upgrade and camo.

 

@ to answer your observation about my stats. 

1. I am very selfish player. I prefer to live than die, I would go for kills that help me instead of the team. As long as I get exp I don't care if I win or not. It's something I am trying to change.

2. I division a lot with my friend who is 2 tiers higher than me. Trying to play the hatsuharu or fubuki in tier 10 games is difficult.

3. I been doing better in the jäger I because I feel it suits my play style. Additionally I been playing the USN DD a lot so now my play style is more diverse. Mixing long range torp and am use much better. I used to only play long range torp.

4. I am a new player after all, I only played this game for about 2 weeks, I took a break of 1 week and just got back again to continue playing so I used to suck at this game.

 

I personally think the Kagero is great ship  as long as you mix your play style and play like a American DD. additionally I gives you the option to play 15km or 20km. 

At the end of the day, I admit playing DD requires a lot more skill to play well then any other class and I am learning, as you can see from my exp graph and win rate graph. I am slow climbing my way back up from my terrible start at this game. But I personally don't care about stats, as long as I get exp, credits and kills I am happy. (Even terrible players have good games and a good game replay is always useful to see what the energy did wrong or what you did right and it will defiantly help new players or at the very least fun to watch, because everyone like to watch someone win xD)

 

[SXLightning]

I believe the Kagero is more agile than the fubuki. That's is defiantly useful!!! Additionally, once you learn to play around the planes you have a good chance to stay hidden.

 

Know where the planes usually come from and go around them or just wait for them to appear. It will be a boring early game but a hidden DD is the best DD.

[rafparis]

 

My Fubuki would like words! 

 

 

Admittedly almost 50% of my games have been in destroyers, racking up 400/824 games so far. The Fubuki does crap cash as well at tier 8. When I finally get the tier 5 concealment skill for it I will be a very happy bunny. I'm training its replacement captain up for when he gets promoted to Kagero duty when I can finally afford to buy one...

Fubuki is not that bad... But i think your good stats in it have something to do with the arrival of the average players at higher tiers and the stream of noobs in tirpitzes. Look at my DDs stats: http://worldofwarships.eu/en/community/accounts/505378898-rafparis/#tab=pvp/account-tab-ships-pvp you can see i did worse in fubuki, but in kagero, which i get just before the tirpitz sale, my xp and dmg skyrocketed.

[Rich_B]

Yeah, it is possible to play around them. Quite often in my Fubuki I'll be running alongside their flight paths with enemy planes passing by at 5-6km range. CV players are so predictable...

[Rich_B]

Fubuki is not that bad... But i think your good stats in it have something to do with the arrival of the average players at higher tiers and the stream of noobs in tirpitzes. Look at my DDs stats: http://worldofwarships.eu/en/community/accounts/505378898-rafparis/#tab=pvp/account-tab-ships-pvp you can see i did worse in fubuki, but in kagero, which i get just before the tirpitz sale, my xp and dmg skyrocketed.

 

Haha, yeah it's difficult to look a gift Tirpitz (or Atago) in the mouth - it's entirely possible. I do find that a lot of the time I spend my time fighting other DDs or the cruiser screen, the BBs at the back are the just desserts for a dirty job well done. If they charge off on their own though... Biscuits!

[Svartur77]

Fubuki is not that bad... But i think your good stats in it have something to do with the arrival of the average players at higher tiers and the stream of noobs in tirpitzes. Look at my DDs stats: http://worldofwarships.eu/en/community/accounts/505378898-rafparis/#tab=pvp/account-tab-ships-pvp you can see i did worse in fubuki, but in kagero, which i get just before the tirpitz sale, my xp and dmg skyrocketed.

 

 

My Fubuki would like words! 

 

 

Admittedly almost 50% of my games have been in destroyers, racking up 400/824 games so far. The Fubuki does crap cash as well at tier 8. When I finally get the tier 5 concealment skill for it I will be a very happy bunny. I'm training its replacement captain up for when he gets promoted to Kagero duty when I can finally afford to buy one...

 

Sorry but I fail to see what is good in those stats beside win rate and that you had a really good game game (max damage). 

 

0.72 k/d - unimpressive

34k avg damage (on tier8 that doesnt sound good to me at all)

 

 

[ColonelPete]

I think the reload times for torpedos Tier VI and higher need to be reduced a lot.

[rafparis]

I think the reload times for torpedos Tier VI and higher need to be reduced a lot.

 

this may be reduced a little, but the worst is the detection range of torps, and that planes can detect them.

[jarskog]

I think the reload times for torpedos Tier VI and higher need to be reduced a lot.

 

No, that will not improve the game experience for anybody besides IJN DD-drivers. Spamming of torpedo's is not the way to go. There is alot of other things more important to look at like the amazing ability to take evasive action with mega-large BB's.

[Iron_Gekko]

Saw a game the other day with a division holding 3 level X IJN DD's they synchronized their torp launches and holy cow did they win the game for their team...

 

With out playing DD but being on the receiving end I think it's very viable, it just seems to require a bit of team-play.

[ColonelPete]

 

No, that will not improve the game experience for anybody besides IJN DD-drivers. Spamming of torpedo's is not the way to go. There is alot of other things more important to look at like the amazing ability to take evasive action with mega-large BB's.

You will not see more torpedos than in the lower Tiers.

[Rich_B]

 

 

Sorry but I fail to see what is good in those stats beside win rate and that you had a really good game game (max damage). 

 

0.72 k/d - unimpressive

34k avg damage (on tier8 that doesnt sound good to me at all)

 

 

 

You're heading towards the Mutsuki at the moment? You'll see what it's like. 

[GulvkluderGuld]

OP, are we discussing top IJN destroyers or destroyers in general?

If the latter, the title is actually a bit misleading

 

I would like to have a tread for high tier USN DD play aswell. Not sure if this is the place for it?

[Nefczi]

 

 

Sorry but I fail to see what is good in those stats beside win rate and that you had a really good game game (max damage). 

 

0.72 k/d - unimpressive

34k avg damage (on tier8 that doesnt sound good to me at all)

 

 

 

Welcome to higher tier DD gameplay. The general opinion that DD lines peak at tier 5, isnt really exagerrated, at least if its comes to tier 6-8 DDs. At those tiers DDs are vastly underperforming in compare to other lines and often in compare to lower tier DDs.

[Userext]

 

Welcome to higher tier DD gameplay. The general opinion that DD lines peak at tier 5, isnt really exagerrated, at least if its comes to tier 6-8 DDs. At those tiers DDs are vastly underperforming in compare to other lines and often in compare to lower tier DDs.

 

To support your idea: 

http://www.warshipstats.com/shipleaders/

 

Global/Japan/Minekaze to Kagero/Damage

 

This is the global server stats. 

Minekaze at highest 75k average damage

Mutsuki at highest 59k average damage

Hatsuharu at highest 56k average damage

Fubuki at highest 67k average damage

Kagero at highest 72.9k average damage

 

This isnt caused by lower rate of torpedo fire this is caused by 12 seconds reaction time.

[SXLightning]

OP, are we discussing top IJN destroyers or destroyers in general?

If the latter, the title is actually a bit misleading

 

I would like to have a tread for high tier USN DD play aswell. Not sure if this is the place for it?

 

Yeah, I am only on the farragut myself, so I don't know the high level in too much detail. However, generally the USN DD get better as the tiers go up.

 

1. Hide/Ambush  the only torp option for <T8 (USN) but IJN DD can also use this tactic.

2. Fire in a cone to increase the chance of a hitting a blob.

3. Fire while sitting in smoke is the other way to deal damage without receiving any.

4. Get range upgrade and fire but still stay invisible. +4km detection range when firing 127mm guns. You can do the math.  (only mostly applies to USN DD since you dont really want to fire you guns and the range on IJN DD are not very good.

5. USN DD now can get defensive fire??? not used it yet, it might be useful to at least push the planes away from you???