Battleship secondaries

[Dominico]

 

 

Yes clearly, by making BBs safe at any ranges from any targets it's of course not pandering to BBs.

 

Neither have none suggested anything like "sailing by the side" of a BB.

 

Somehow not having to stay at a BBs ideal range for its main guns, is.. easy mode for those not in BBs. Somehow every other ship is "easy mode" when you're asking for buffs to make your own ship ideal at any range any any situation 

 

battleships are not my ship. I use different ships....

 

As a destroyer player it's no challenge to sail to the side of a battleship. In fact his only chance is to hit me with main batteries. Combine that with the fact he likely has ap loaded and will need to hit me about 5 or more times. It's easy mode for me as I can dodge pretty well.

 

Destroyers should be torping  at range either out of sight (which is not perfect range for a battleship as he can't see him....) or ambush (which is mot perfect range as he is aiming the wrong way).

 

I know people don't understand how destroyers worked but anyhow... back to topic, though I would say this is not about making destroyers more likely to be hit (though personally I would) I concede they need easy mode as I said in the opening post. I'm talking about accuracy vs cruisers and battleships.

 

The problem is a lot of secondaries, IJN primarily, fire AP, small-caliber AP, and their performance reflects this completely. They will facewreck destroyers, be meh against cruisers and do nothing but bounce on battleships. As a general rule the dedicated secondaries (usually 140-155mm) fire AP and the dual-purpose ones (basically the ones that double as secondary guns and long range anti-air) fire HE.

 

The best comparison here I can give is between the Nagato and Amagi. The Amagi has double (yes double) the dual-purpose guns as secondaries compared to the Nagato, although the Amagi has less range I do find that WHEN the secondary guns come into play they are significantly more effective because of the higher amount of HE which are pretty equal versus destroyers to the AP ones but significantly better against cruisers and particularly battleships.

 

Anyways, to recap, I do not believe that accuracy is the problem. Their hit ratio is usually between 10% and 18% (my own is 15% at the moment), the problem is that when they hit they oftentimes do jack-all.

 

This is probably it. But in that case they should change ammo dependent on target really. It's all a bit anaemic.  I mean you have all those secondaries and expect an epic firefight with your opponents and both your and his secondaries just splash about in the water. Sad this got through beta.

 

A good fix I believe would be leave them blind to destroyers to stop whining.  Then buff at extreme close range 2km or so vs battleships and to a lesser extent cruisers. 

[Dominico]

hit ratio should be 50% of the hit ratio of the players hit ratio... i would laugh my a.s off

 

I would agree with that as I have about 80% hit rate at 3 km so 40% would be great for secondaries instead of them being fired by this guy.

 

 

[Userext]

 

I would agree with that as I have about 80% hit rate at 3 km so 40% would be great for secondaries instead of them being fired by this guy.

 

You have generally 

 

Hit Ratio
Main battery	28%
Torpedoes	10%
Secondary battery	17%

 

 

So it is more than %50 of your hit ratio  yes i know you meant your close range accuracy

[Dominico]

 

You have generally 

 

Hit Ratio
Main battery	28%
Torpedoes	10%
Secondary battery	17%

 

 

So it is more than %50 of your hit ratio  yes i know you meant your close range accuracy

 

Stats. Stats are usually useless unless you look at them in context. For example those stats include my girlfriend playing. My nephew for 10 games or so (he's 5) and me firing at destroyers when the teqm ignores them (in a battleship with he) and long range speculative shots at the start of the game where 1 or 2 shells hit. So no. I'm talking about when the ship is side on. About 2km away and my men still can't hit it. They have 0% chance at the ranges most of those shot in my stats were taken at (rightly so) but then 17% at 2km.... meh. That's crap.

 

I mean if they wanted to make them so inacurate they should also have kept the range higher. Not 3km or 4 :/

[Userext]

Stats. Stats are usually useless unless you look at them in context. For example those stats include my girlfriend playing. My nephew for 10 games or so (he's 5) and me firing at destroyers when the teqm ignores them (in a battleship with he) and long range speculative shots at the start of the game where 1 or 2 shells hit. So no. I'm talking about when the ship is side on. About 2km away and my men still can't hit it. They have 0% chance at the ranges most of those shot in my stats were taken at (rightly so) but then 17% at 2km.... meh. That's crap.

 

have you used any module upgrade? Remember the one i was taking about that increases range and accuracy?

If secondaries werent bad like this battleships could be easier to play. Which is not something you would want. Easier to play=less skill

[Dominico]

They wouldn't be easier to play. They would be more fun at close ranges opposing them and playing them. As it is now they are not a challenge to take on. And not as exciting to go toe to toe with enemy battleships. The damage from secondaries is very negligible anyway, the ship itself is hard countered by long range HE fire, carriers and destroyers. Buffing accuracy of secondaries vs cruisers and battleships (both of whom rarely come close if skilled) would not make it easier to any great point. It would make it more fun (remember if I'm in a battleship N my secondaries are buffed, so are his....)

 

I'm talking 2 or 3 km buff. Not 6 or 7km accuracy. 

I hope you get the point now. P's I have an upgrade ill go look in a few mind to check which.

[Userext]

They wouldn't be easier to play. They would be more fun at close ranges opposing them and playing them. As it is now they are not a challenge to take on. And not as exciting to go toe to toe with enemy battleships. The damage from secondaries is very negligible anyway, the ship itself is hard countered by long range HE fire, carriers and destroyers. Buffing accuracy of secondaries vs cruisers and battleships (both of whom rarely come close if skilled) would not make it easier to any great point. It would make it more fun (remember if I'm in a battleship N my secondaries are buffed, so are his....)

 

I'm talking 2 or 3 km buff. Not 6 or 7km accuracy. 

I hope you get the point now. P's I have an upgrade ill go look in a few mind to check which.

 

They would be easier to paly because you wouldnt worry much about a ship thats close to you. Also as i said before Izumo and Yamato have up to 9.8km secondary range. If they buff accuracy to %40 i am %100 sure destroyers especially USN ones are going to be nerfed.

[LilJumpa]

Why would it be more fun if guns you can control only to a minimum degree and fire on their own do more damage?

 

I am not sure what you want to hear/read.

 

People stated what secondaries are for, how they can be upgraded and that different ships have better secondaries.

You got answers and are still asking why this "made it trough beta" because you (and only you!!) want them to work differently.

 

And ofc the "Stats are useless because............ and my dog played too" statement which never gets old.

 

 

 

[Dominico]

Meh. Reading skills are not you guys forte.  You keep going on about destroyers and long range problems at blah blah km with the yamato. CLOSE RANGE ACCURACY VS BIG TARGET. 

 

Also to the stat guy stats are quite complex. For example accuracy of secondaries is overall is quite a worthless stat. Vs a destroyer they are probably 2 or 3%. When I'm a destroyer and I see battleship secondaries firing I think meh. They will never hit, maybe 1 or 2 shells as I sail past him. So they are zero threat to destroyers. But it's off topic again...

 

I NOT ASKING FOR A BUFF VS DESTROYER BUT A SIZE/TARGET DISTANCE BASED BUFF. Facepalm*

[Userext]

Meh. Reading skills are not you guys forte.  You keep going on about destroyers and long range problems at blah blah km with the yamato. CLOSE RANGE ACCURACY VS BIG TARGET. 

 

I NOT ASKING FOR A BUFF VS DESTROYER BUT A SIZE/TARGET DISTANCE BASED BUFF. Facepalm*

 

Cruisers are already bigger than destroyers thus higher chance to get hit. Why do you want a spiked armoured tank?

IS this what you want?

[bloomoon11]

AOE damage is not fun gameplay.  If you want to damage a target nearby then aim at it and click your left mouse button.

[Mucker]

As it is now, at least at lower tiers, the lack of secondary gun effecticveness on BBs is a huge exploit for smaller vessels. I'm not talking about that pesky destroyer that sailed straight at me in my Myogi, torped me in my face for 20k damage and got 500 dmg in return by a broadside of 8 x 152 mm guns. Torpedo bombers are even more annoying in that regard. But in principle, a DD could circle a Wyoming or a Myogi and inflict 10 times the damage by the main guns alone, then it would get in return by the secondarys. An that's ridiculous.  The funny thing is, DDs will not really try that with cruisers, because their (player controlled) main guns (which are roughly equal in numbers to a BBs secondarys) will send them to the sea bottom within 2-3 salvos.   

[Dominico]

Its quite worrying that you guys are beta testers, and kinda explains the mess that the game is in, especially carriers etc (which they are starting to fix)

 

I think guns are a bit innacurate at close range and pointless. They could do with a buff vs bigger targets.

 

NOOO YOU WILL KILL ALL DESTROYERS.

I didnt say destroyers, i said a buff vs other battleships and a smaller buff vs cruisers, the damage they do is so negligable it doesnt matter anyhow.

 

NOO YOU WANT EASY WIN BUTTON AND BIGGEST SHIP IN GAME WITH SPIKES!

 

Sigh... ok forget it you clowns, i realise you are terrified of battleships and lack the ability to keep them at range lol. 

[Userext]

Its quite worrying that you guys are beta testers, and kinda explains the mess that the game is in, especially carriers etc (which they are starting to fix)

 

I think guns are a bit innacurate at close range and pointless. They could do with a buff vs bigger targets.

 

NOOO YOU WILL KILL ALL DESTROYERS.

 

I didnt say destroyers, i said a buff vs other battleships and a smaller buff vs cruisers, the damage they do is so negligable it doesnt matter anyhow.

 

NOO YOU WANT EASY WIN BUTTON AND BIGGEST SHIP IN GAME WITH SPIKES!

 

Sigh... ok forget it you clowns, i realise you are terrified of battleships and lack the ability to keep them at range lol. 

 

Nah. You see this is how you sound to us

ICUDNT KILL A SHAP NOOB SECONDAR BUFF SECNDAR

Why? They arent underperforming. They are performing just about right. 

NU I IS NO ACCEP BUF SECNDAR

There is no reason to buff a class that isnt having any balance issues. Battleships arent under performing? Then why buff them?

BATLSHAPS UNDERPRFOM BUFF SECNDAR BUFF BATLESHAP

*facepalm*

 

Do please not ask such stuff. What would you say if a cruiser player requested buff to cruisers as "make radar spot all ships in 10km for a min long time"

 

Edit: Also dont blame us here. They dont listen to players. Especially the ones that arent from RU

[Wischmob_von_Eimer]

Its quite worrying that you guys are beta testers, and kinda explains the mess that the game is in, especially carriers etc (which they are starting to fix)

 

Just ignore them...

 

They are that kind of player that requests Buffs because of historical accuracy and cries when said historical accuracy is used to explain nerfs, because its a game and does not have to be 100% historical accurate.

 

But yes, Secondary Guns missing >300m behemoths made of steel by a mile simply looks ridiculous.

 

 

My approach would be different however. I would use the speed difference between both ships as the main factor for hits with secondary guns.

 

Example:

 

BB with 25kn, DD with 35kn.

 

Situation "A"

BB drives from west to east, DD comes from East to west => relative speed of the DD to the BB: 60kn 

 

Situation"B"

BB drives from west to east, alongside another BB traveling in the same direction => relative Speed => 0kn

 

In situation "A" the DD should be next to immune to the secondary guns because from their point of view he is a fast moving object. In situation "B" the opposite BB should be hit with a decent ammount of precision, because from the point of view of the secondary guns it is basicaly stationary.

[Dominico]

 

Just ignore them...

 

They are that kind of player that requests Buffs because of historical accuracy and cries when said historical accuracy is used to explain nerfs, because its a game and does not have to be 100% historical accurate.

 

But yes, Secondary Guns missing >300m behemoths made of steel by a mile simply looks ridiculous.

 

 

My approach would be different however. I would use the speed difference between both ships as the main factor for hits with secondary guns.

 

Example:

 

BB with 25kn, DD with 35kn.

 

Situation "A"

BB drives from west to east, DD comes from East to west => relative speed of the DD to the BB: 60kn 

 

Situation"B"

BB drives from west to east, alongside another BB traveling in the same direction => relative Speed => 0kn

 

In situation "A" the DD should be next to immune to the secondary guns because from their point of view he is a fast moving object. In situation "B" the opposite BB should be hit with a decent ammount of precision, because from the point of view of the secondary guns it is basicaly stationary.

 

 

Yeah as i said i woudlnt even mess with it vs destroyers, because though i think its entirely ridiculous that a destroyer only has to fear the battleships main guns and can sail up to it without tactics or too much skill, well "game balance" we have to have easy mode for them. But i just find it a bit pointless really, the whole "secondaries" on my ship thing is pointless. Id even be more happy if they nerfed the damage more (its low anyway but meh) and made them more accurate, atleast then it would look good, which is mainly what im after. Or just buff them in Battleships vs battleship if cruisers are going to cry they got near a battleship without torping it and got killed by the secondaries. 

 

It just seems a bit weak to me that the ship has all these guns and they do f' all lol. (the secondaries)

[Userext]

 

 

Yeah as i said i woudlnt even mess with it vs destroyers, because though i think its entirely ridiculous that a destroyer only has to fear the battleships main guns and can sail up to it without tactics or too much skill, well "game balance" we have to have easy mode for them. But i just find it a bit pointless really, the whole "secondaries" on my ship thing is pointless. Id even be more happy if they nerfed the damage more (its low anyway but meh) and made them more accurate, atleast then it would look good, which is mainly what im after. Or just buff them in Battleships vs battleship if cruisers are going to cry they got near a battleship without torping it and got killed by the secondaries. 

 

It just seems a bit weak to me that the ship has all these guns and they do f' all lol. (the secondaries)

 

If you want such buff you need to nerf one part of a battleship. Also they might use secondary diffrence as a nation diffrence. As you know japan has better secondaries compared to US and as you also know that warspite has better secondaries than nagato at tier 6. So we can quite clearly say that RNBBs will be the BB you guys are looking for. Not accurate slow turning turrets but good power

[Wischmob_von_Eimer]

 

If you want such buff you need to nerf one part of a battleship. 

 

Given a 100% perfect balance that statement may be correct, but what part of a DD would you nerf in order to justify the buff of the reload times for torps at tier 6+? Detection range? Speed? Torpedo speed?

 

I think we both agree, that sometimes a pure buff of something, like the reload for DD, is neccessary.

 

Better yet, why not combine a mostly visual BB buff with a long waited for DD buff to bring them on level with CA and CV?

[AgarwaenME]

 

Given a 100% perfect balance that statement may be correct, but what part of a DD would you nerf in order to justify the buff of the reload times for torps at tier 6+? Detection range? Speed? Torpedo speed?

 

I think we both agree, that sometimes a pure buff of something, like the reload for DD, is neccessary.

 

Better yet, why not combine a mostly visual BB buff with a long waited for DD buff to bring them on level with CA and CV?

 

You don't need to justify a buff when you buff the class of ships that are are at the bottom of the list.

 

And it's amazingly ridiculous to have someone defend buffs for BBs, then claiming it's the people not belonging to the BB mafia that talks about historical accuracy. It's as if you can completely ignore months of thread on this forum and what's been said in them.

[Wischmob_von_Eimer]

Well, it seems like you did not read the full proposal of the OP, so me not reading every single "OMG WTF BBQ BB are so bad" as well as "OH NOEZ PLZ NURF BB!!" thread is a rather small problem.

[Userext]

 

Given a 100% perfect balance that statement may be correct, but what part of a DD would you nerf in order to justify the buff of the reload times for torps at tier 6+? Detection range? Speed? Torpedo speed?

 

I think we both agree, that sometimes a pure buff of something, like the reload for DD, is neccessary.

 

Better yet, why not combine a mostly visual BB buff with a long waited for DD buff to bring them on level with CA and CV?

 

DDs tier 6+ dont need a reload buff. It isnt necessary their reload is whats keeping high tiers away from torpedo spams. A pure buff of something would be done to a UP class. Battlesihps are not UP. Battleships are at a higher level than CA

[Wischmob_von_Eimer]

Ah, yes, WG Minion, at least you show up ^^

 

And of course, DD are perfectly balanced at tier 6+, thats what everyone says since at least 0.3.0 and especialy 0.3.1 and that is why high tier matches right now are perfectly filled with DD, right?

 

Well, it seems like a lot of DD players do not agree with you.

 

 

Anyway, it was an example for a class that needs a pure buff, without a responding nerf, in case you did not get that.

 

And you aswell did propably not read the proposal of the OP, so .... yeah .... 

[Userext]

Ah, yes, WG Minion, at least you show up ^^

 

And of course, DD are perfectly balanced at tier 6+, thats what everyone says since at least 0.3.0 and especialy 0.3.1 and that is why high tier matches right now are perfectly filled with DD, right?

 

Well, it seems like a lot of DD players do not agree with you.

 

 

Anyway, it was an example for a class that needs a pure buff, without a responding nerf, in case you did not get that.

 

And you aswell did propably not read the proposal of the OP, so .... yeah .... 

 

Yes definetly buffing reload speed will fix the glorious IJNDD master race *facepalm*

It seems like a lot of DD players are just imaginary. There are only 2 nations in game. There will be up to 5-6 nations. To fit in diffrent natinos there will be national diffrences between classes. Anyone who cant take the reload of tier 6+ IJNDDs can jsut sit at the corner and wait for other ships to come.

 

I read OP'S proposal and i am still saying WG does not want to give 2 sides super sharp swords to people. IF you want that kind of thing WT naval would be your choice. There is balance system here. You guys can be ignorant as much as you want but i am saying this again

                                       

                                                                                     THERE ARE ONLY 2 NATIONS IN THIS GAME RIGHT NOW

 

I hope you can see it now. Wait for RNBBs go for them dont expect WG developers to eat all the empty space left out for other nations just so you can be happy

[t0ffik1]

 

You have generally 

 

Hit Ratio
Main battery	28%
Torpedoes	10%
Secondary battery	17%

 

 

So it is more than %50 of your hit ratio  yes i know you meant your close range accuracy

 

And you dont notice that main battery hit ratio is counted from 20+km to almost 0 ? LOL someone doesnt have a clue about statistics...

Typical shots fired from main BB battery from 5k under what i observe on my case has easly 50% hit ratio.

Where i see my secondery shots fire 1km in front, aft, around the target... I seriously thing the secondery batteries should have way more acc vs BIG TARGETS and maybe minimal buff vs small ones, as a DD so or so would be harder to hit. But i dont see how the hell you can miss a BB on 3km range from secondery.

Knowing the game engine the batteries are way smaller with lower acc as they dont have such long barrel/gun and it would also lower the speed of the projectile and its penetration value, so still big part would probably be blocked by enemy armor.

But yes, the seconderies are a joke now... They probably do lower DPS/M then and hashidate/erie ships with 2 guns driven by bots (and you have typicly like 15+? secondery guns?).

 

So buff their ACC on big targets the most, little on small and medium. So if you see BB's dogfighting them selfs the seconderys do hit more then 1 time per 5 minutes.

[Userext]

 

And you dont notice that main battery hit ratio is counted from 20+km to almost 0 ? LOL someone doesnt have a clue about statistics...

Typical shots fired from main BB battery from 5k under what i observe on my case has easly 50% hit ratio.

Where i see my secondery shots fire 1km in front, aft, around the target... I seriously thing the secondery batteries should have way more acc vs BIG TARGETS and maybe minimal buff vs small ones, as a DD so or so would be harder to hit. But i dont see how the hell you can miss a BB on 3km range from secondery.

Knowing the game engine the batteries are way smaller with lower acc as they dont have such long barrel/gun and it would also lower the speed of the projectile and its penetration value, so still big part would probably be blocked by enemy armor.

But yes, the seconderies are a joke now... They probably do lower DPS/M then and hashidate/erie ships with 2 guns driven by bots (and you have typicly like 15+? secondery guns?).

 

So buff their ACC on big targets the most, little on small and medium. So if you see BB's dogfighting them selfs the seconderys do hit more then 1 time per 5 minutes.

 

Someone cant read....

No need for buff towards battleships.