IJN vs. US TB damage

[Nottler]

After having a (more) difficult time playing IJN CV after 4.1 and thinking of switching to other classes or US CV-line twice a day, I wanted to check out some stat differences between the 2 T10 CV's (playing a Hakuryo myself since today). 

 

One thing regarding the Torpedo Bombers got my attention: I actually thought IJN TB deal more max. damage per torp. But the stats mention US TB's dealing 1,3k more. (8.5k IJN vs. 9.8k US). 

 

Considering the squadron size and spread i calculated and average of 40k dmg with US TB's (4 out of 6 drops hit) vs. 16k - 24k dmg with IJN TBs (2 - 3 out of 4 hits). Possible setups are up to 3 IJN squadrons vs. 2 US squadron, so theoretical dmg is ~60k IJN vs. 80k US.

 

Now, taking into consideration that US fighters are completely roflstomping anything right now, I feel like IJN CV's are way underpowered compared to US CVs. 

 

Or: Am I missing something here? 

 

My general consent is that if I run against a Midway and he runs 3 fighter sqd. and/or is at least a half decent captain (fought a couple of brain afk captains today) me and my Haku always funked...

[Sharana]

My general consent is that if I run against a Midway and he runs 3 fighter sqd. and/or is at least a half decent captain (fought a couple of brain afk captains today) me and my Haku always funked...

 

When he runs the 3 fighter squadrons he has no TBs and you have fighter deck with 4 fighters + 2TBs which is much better.

 

Still if you look at the pure damage capacity for now the USN CVs (9-10) so Midway will have far higher one because of the tight spread and more damage per torpedo and if you only hunt BBs that's your choice. The more squadrons (3 TBs) combined with much faster torpedoes (DDs can't outrun them) make the Hakuryu International Airport far better choice when you concentrate on hunting DDs and cruisers.

[t0ffik1]

But isnt it something should be done with Japan TB's spread? how is it possible that its so wide when its totaly not effective and US have such good spread (and higher changes to actually fire anything through heavy AA as theyr squadron nas more planes).

Ignoring the fact that currently 1 US tier 4 fighter squadron rapes 2 japan fighter squadrons from Zuiho (i dont think it is possible looking at stats - yet i saw it happend half of the time) - damn i even saw enemy US fighter squadron blow up my squadron over empty sea in under 2s, so it something wrong here.

But the torp problem is actually more significant one, as we dont have almost any RNG system in it (like guns have dispersion) torps also never were droped in 1 pararel single lines but they did have little difference in course to each other. And US torps had almost 40% fail to expload rate in WW2. 

So looking at dmg the US torp bomber spread should be widened (if you can put in the fail to expload mechanic), or IJN's TB's should have tighter spread as there are less planes and the Japan pilots were flying in similar tight formations (im actually more for increasing spread on US planes as there are simply more of them).

 

btw can someone explain to me why IJN has a paper haryuku or something as tier 10 when they had a shinano CV build in reality with over 120 planes on board (it was the 3rd yamato class bb rebuild to a carrier)

[Nottler]

When he runs the 3 fighter squadrons he has no TBs and you have fighter deck with 4 fighters + 2TBs which is much better.

 

Yeah this one kinda appealed to me yesterday while checking the stats of these ships. Knowing that there are no TB's around has a great impact on ship positioning. Good thing you mentioned it though.

 

Still if you look at the pure damage capacity for now the USN CVs (9-10) so Midway will have far higher one because of the tight spread and more damage per torpedo and if you only hunt BBs that's your choice. The more squadrons (3 TBs) combined with much faster torpedoes (DDs can't outrun them) make the Hakuryu International Airport far better choice when you concentrate on hunting DDs and cruisers.

 

. Interesting information. I use to hunt DD's and CA's whenever viable (or if enemy AA is grouped up to much). Never thought about or got any experience on how US CV's fare with that.

 

But isnt it something should be done with Japan TB's spread?

 

I really hope that the IJN spread will be narrowed again a bit. I cannot believe my eyes sometimes when a BB almost fits through 2 broadsided torps...

[...] when they had a shinano CV build in reality with over 120 planes on board (it was the 3rd yamato class bb rebuild to a carrier)

 

Oh... I would love to see that carrier :3

 

[Kenliero]

I hope Enterprise will be tier 7 Premium carrier.

In Battle of Midway it was facing Hiryu in real life, which would be interesting to see here as well

[viceadmiral123]

IJN is broken. Devs know about the USN vs IJN imbalance and do nothing. Solution - post in the development section on top of the already existing topics. In the meantime, play all classes of all nations.

[Sharana]

Actually the devs just wait for the programes to fix the inversed IJN spread so they can add it. It will narrow the spread, but will increase the skill floor so avarage or worse many players will probably consider it a nerf.

[Figment]

The thing you're missing is, T10 US Midway has:

 

2 - 1 - 2 (deck 1) - max torp damage 9.867 x 6 = 59.202 max torp damage + 7.500 x 12 = 90.000 max bomb damage

1 - 2 - 2 (deck 2) - max torp damage 9.867 x 12 = 118.404 max torp damage + 7.500 x 12 = 90.000 max bomb damage

3 - 0 - 2 (deck 3) - max torp damage 0 max torp damage + 7.500 x 12 = 90.000 max bomb damage

 

Average damage of a carrier typically lies between 80-120K for a very good player. Most people don't achieve that average damage. That includes torp, flood, bomb and fire damage. That means the torp hit rate and the damage per torp dealt is much lower than the maximum damage a torpedo does. But, you can at most have two torp bombers crosshatch.

 

 

If you compare to the IJN line with the Hakuryu:

 

2 - 3 - 2 (deck 1) - 8.567 x 12 = 102.804 max torp damage + 4.600 x 8 = 36.800 max bomb damage

2 - 3 - 3 (deck 2) - 8.567 x 12 = 102.804 max torp damage + 4.600 x 12 = 55.200 max bomb damage

4 - 2 - 2 (deck 3) - 8.567 x 8 = 68.536 max torp damage + 4.600 x 8 = 36.800 max bomb damage

 

That allows for extensive cross hatching and you have so many ground attack aircraft squadrons there is no way the enemy carriers can hold them all back. It also means that you can force enemies to take a hit, repair and then wait with a strike to force flooding or fire damage after they repaired. US carriers do not have as much of a luxury, they rely far more on alpha damage.

 

 

The whining about IJN CVs becoming underpowered I think comes from people that don't really understand this part about indirect damage inflicting, which the IJN carriers have much more opportunity to, next to being able to box units in better to up the hitrate.

 

On top of that, consider launch and turn around time, which for IJN carriers are shorter iirc.

[Guillotine]

There should be some fixes to CV gameplay:

1: Fix the imbalance of fighter setups and DB / TB so there might be more planes AKA more HP and maeby even slight dmg advantage. But no gamebraking 1 fighter group of 6 can decimate 2x 4man groups ( 8 planes ) thx to some decision.

2: Fix the spreads and DMG outputs of each plane type so there is no 20k differense and that is artificial cuz theres alot lower chanse to score 4 hit in IJN TB than 6 hit with USN TB.

3: Fix the Dive bombers, USN ones atleast do dmg and have somewhat decent chance to hit while IJN ones can cause fires and meaby with luck destroy AA mount.

[Ksionc]

 

Now, taking into consideration that US fighters are completely roflstomping anything right now, I feel like IJN CV's are way underpowered compared to US CVs. 

 

 

Please explain to me, how IJN could be underpowered if IJN has every kind of planes FASTER than US, and the speed is the most importand factor.

[Nottler]

From the attacking PoV:

• I need to group up 2 to 6 attack planes
• an US CV needs only 2 fighter squads to shoot down most of my planes
• my planes need to travel twice as far b/c the enemy is on the other side of the map most of the time (dont think me a border hugging CV)
• So, if the US CV defends, time is on his side

 

From the defending PoV:

Lol... don't even get me started... US CV will just send his fighters up front to keep my fighters busy while his attack planes drop their loads.If I want at least some of my fighters to stay alive I have to 2-on-1 his fighter planes (and still lose all of 'em most of the time). Else he will pick apart one squad after the other and I will quickly run out of fighters 

 

IJN pushes planes out way faster than US, that is correct. But travel times and fighter power are usually to the advantage of US CV's.

[Et_Lanatus_baro]

tightening the TB spread for IJN CV's is best way forward not too tight juts slightly which will bring its damage output up bringing it inline with US TB's

[Figment]

If I want at least some of my fighters to stay alive I have to 2-on-1 his fighter planes (and still lose all of 'em most of the time). Else he will pick apart one squad after the other and I will quickly run out of fighters 

 

Why do all of the complainers think they have to send their fighters into the middle of nowhere to fight?

 

That's just stupid. Just draw them away and only engage over friendlies. Then you can one vs one squadron them.

[RepSrb]

if you really,really, want to play cv -go usa cv line , dont listen to usa cv captains here. in jap cv youre food.

[RepSrb]

tightening the TB spread for IJN CV's is best way forward not too tight juts slightly which will bring its damage output up bringing it inline with US TB's

ahahah lool and howyou tighten it up ? with a screwdriver ?!?!

[Vulgarny]

The thing you're missing is, T10 US Midway has:

 

2 - 1 - 2 (deck 1) - max torp damage 9.867 x 6 = 59.202 max torp damage + 7.500 x 12 = 90.000 max bomb damage

1 - 2 - 2 (deck 2) - max torp damage 9.867 x 12 = 118.404 max torp damage + 7.500 x 12 = 90.000 max bomb damage

3 - 0 - 2 (deck 3) - max torp damage 0 max torp damage + 7.500 x 12 = 90.000 max bomb damage

 

Average damage of a carrier typically lies between 80-120K for a very good player. Most people don't achieve that average damage. That includes torp, flood, bomb and fire damage. That means the torp hit rate and the damage per torp dealt is much lower than the maximum damage a torpedo does. But, you can at most have two torp bombers crosshatch.

 

 

If you compare to the IJN line with the Hakuryu:

 

2 - 3 - 2 (deck 1) - 8.567 x 12 = 102.804 max torp damage + 4.600 x 8 = 36.800 max bomb damage

2 - 3 - 3 (deck 2) - 8.567 x 12 = 102.804 max torp damage + 4.600 x 12 = 55.200 max bomb damage

4 - 2 - 2 (deck 3) - 8.567 x 8 = 68.536 max torp damage + 4.600 x 8 = 36.800 max bomb damage

 

That allows for extensive cross hatching and you have so many ground attack aircraft squadrons there is no way the enemy carriers can hold them all back. It also means that you can force enemies to take a hit, repair and then wait with a strike to force flooding or fire damage after they repaired. US carriers do not have as much of a luxury, they rely far more on alpha damage.

 

 

The whining about IJN CVs becoming underpowered I think comes from people that don't really understand this part about indirect damage inflicting, which the IJN carriers have much more opportunity to, next to being able to box units in better to up the hitrate.

 

On top of that, consider launch and turn around time, which for IJN carriers are shorter iirc.

 

What bull drop that one on barn floor?

[Sasha31]

with IJN CV you better pay dearly to have all modules, skills needed for better fighter planes and use air superiority setup JUST so you can function and do some minor damage in the game..otherwise its a wipe out.. IJN fighters are paper fighters.. talking stock versus stock.. so you better upgrade like insane and hope with some luck enemy US fighters not upgraded.. that is all..

 

 and be happy to drop 2,4 torpedoes per game.. and hit 4 bomb hits with 1 fire.. that is now the "average" and is per WG and community considered balanced.. btw, that is about 20-30 k damage)lol..

 

 something you will do much more in any class no matter what line (US, IJN).. 

[Figment]

What bull drop that one on barn floor?

 

Well as far as I can tell a different one from the one that stuffed it down your throat and made you puke it out all day.

 

 

I would like to hear you explain what is wrong about it and why. Just checked and you've been putting out exactly that amount of damage on average. Interesting.

[Et_Lanatus_baro]

ahahah lool and howyou tighten it up ? with a screwdriver ?!?!

 

LOL

[Vulgarny]

 

Well as far as I can tell a different one from the one that stuffed it down your throat and made you puke it out all day.

 

 

I would like to hear you explain what is wrong about it and why. Just checked and you've been putting out exactly that amount of damage on average. Interesting.

 

Cannot explain to you sorry. First you need to get rid of all that stuffed between your ears.

[Figment]

Cannot explain to you sorry. First you need to get rid of all that stuffed between your ears.

 

I think you mean that self-entitlement superiority complex of yours. I've made a couple statements. If you're so sure of yourself, then please use that thing between your ears to make actual arguments, instead of childish insults. So until then you're just saying "you're right, but I'm so butthurt I'm just going to vent my frustration at being nerfed at you instead of making my point that me dealing 133K per match is just about where it should be civilly".

[Vulgarny]

You just missed the whole point. You just took raw numbers of torp dmg and bomb damage of planes from Hakuryuu and Midway and you want to prove what? That Hak isnt falling too much behind dmg because it can do more dmg with fire and flooding? (What is pure scrap from barn floor).

IF you actually play some games instead of fancy theorycrafting you would understand why high tier CV players are laughing at you when you write things like this:

max torp damage 9.867 x 12 = 118.404  Midway

8.567 x 12 = 102.804 max torp damage Hak

 

 Inexperienced therycrafting player like you that think that its only 16k dmg difference potential with alpha strike so because IJN  service planes faster it means that Mid and Hak are  more or less equal.Well maybe grind both lines play some game then try to convince anyone about your theorycraft. Right now I wouldnt even use it to wipe my [edited]after toilet visit.

 

[Figment]

You just missed the whole point. You just took raw numbers of torp dmg and bomb damage of planes from Hakuryuu and Midway and you want to prove what? That Hak isnt falling too much behind dmg because it can do more dmg with fire and flooding? (What is pure scrap from barn floor).

IF you actually play some games instead of fancy theorycrafting you would understand why high tier CV players are laughing at you when you write things like this:

max torp damage 9.867 x 12 = 118.404  Midway

8.567 x 12 = 102.804 max torp damage Hak

 

 Inexperienced therycrafting player like you that think that its only 16k dmg difference potential with alpha strike so because IJN  service planes faster it means that Mid and Hak are  more or less equal.Well maybe grind both lines play some game then try to convince anyone about your theorycraft. Right now I wouldnt even use it to wipe my [edited]after toilet visit.

 

 

So inexperienced reader like you doesn't understand what I wrote.

 

 

Nice. No wonder you disagree when you don't even know what you're argueing with.

[Vulgarny]

Well you just proved that you dont understand what you wrote yourself.

[Figment]

Well you just proved that you dont understand what you wrote yourself.

 

Vulgarny, one last chance to make a point, otherwise just find my nice ignore space.

 

 

 

HINT: REREAD WHAT I ACTUALLY WROTE AS A COMMENT BELOW IT. And if you really want to argue that having more squadrons doesn't enhance your ability to crosshatch and keep stuff burning/flooding, then you're just not as good as you think you are. Do you have any idea how much damage you deal by flooding per match out of that average of yours? Because I get the idea you don't when you say you don't deal more flooding damage than on a US CV, which gets one big strike opportunity (or two smaller) opposed to two big or three smaller at the higher tier IJN.

 

I'm under the impression you got your scores by spamderping aircraft at single targets by overwhelming AAA, but completely fail when you have to manage actual threats that can cancel you out if you fail to properly engage.