Secondary Guns - need a buff?

[HeliPilot_UK]

Considering battleships have long reloads and a long firing range, the close quarters combat capabilities (I think) should be increased.

 

Recently they have had Main Battery buff making them accuracy much better at close range, but they have long reloads.

 

The secondary guns on most BB's are mostly a joke unless you acquire both commander upgrades and have the Accuracy and Range upgrade mounted on your ship. However, many BB's need the Main Battery Accuracy upgrade in order to be effective, which then prohibits the use of the alternative Secondary Upgrade,

 

I propose that Secondary Gun Firing Accuracy should get better the longer a target stays within it's range.

(this would makes sence, as if the crews were acquiring their range on the target)

 

This is because the accuracy is stupendously inaccurate,  and only is useful for incapacitating ships or setting them on fire with lucky hits.

 

Their range I believe should stay as they are, as this can be significantly increased to up 40% (if the BB is capable of mounting the Secondary Upgrade).

 

However, my main reason for this is because BB's have to deal with constant fire's, massive attention from carriers, and deal with pesky long range torpedoes. With my experience with BB's from tier 2 (Mikasa) to the Nagato & Tirpitz, they have to much on their plate to worry about, so this proposal should not effect game play too much, and offer BB's a second chance to surprise ships (not just DD's).

[AgarwaenME]

And in what way would you nerf BBs to compensate for such a buff?

[xCaptainObviousx]

And in what way would you nerf BBs to compensate for such a buff?

 

I can sacrifice the top 2 kt top speed since you never reach those anyways 

[HeliPilot_UK]

And in what way would you nerf BBs to compensate for such a buff?

 

To be honest, they don't really need nerfing. The chance of getting citadel hits was reduced. The increasing Accuracy buff is to deter ships from hanging around and sailing in circles around them (since their Main Guns can't really catch up).  

 

Maybe sacrifice rate of fire?  The Health of Secondary Guns is poor anyway. Enough HE spam on Sec Guns will destroy them, even with the increased Health Pool. Along with the constant setting on fire.

[NoMoon]

Secondary batteries should work like AA.  It should be a zone of consistent DPS so that any ship that wants to get close has to endure an additional layer of damage, with or without a flat percentage chance to set fires/incapacitate modules.

 

To balance such a change, DDs could have a unique passive ability which reduces the damage and incapacity chance by 80% (or whatever) to reflect their size and maneuverability.

 

Job done, BBs are scary to approach for everyone but DDs get an easier time on their close attack runs.

[22cm]

 

To balance such a change, DDs could have a unique passive ability which reduces the damage and incapacity chance by 80% (or whatever) to reflect their size and maneuverability.

 

Only problem is that DDs need much more than that for balance overall.

[HeliPilot_UK]

 

Only problem is that DDs need much more than that for balance overall.

 

I don't think DD's need another buff (if the BB buff is added). If they close enough for the Secondary Guns to fire, then the BB's is mostly likely to die anyway from the torpedoes.

[Userext]

 

I don't think DD's need another buff (if the BB buff is added). If they close enough for the Secondary Guns to fire, then the BB's is mostly likely to die anyway from the torpedoes.

 

only newbies and noobs die because a DD got in 3-5km

 

Also Battleships like yamato can have up to 9.8km secondary range. 

Secondaries do not need a buff. 

[HeliPilot_UK]

 

only newbies and noobs die because a DD got in 3-5km

 

Also Battleships like yamato can have up to 9.8km secondary range. 

Secondaries do not need a buff. 

 

Only noobs? I like to think I am decent at the game, and there have been times where cruisers and DD's push my flank, or when I have had to push the flank and take the fire off my ally cruisers. 4-5km range is pathetic for Tier 6-8 BB's, but yes I agree, Tier 9 and 10's do not need a Secondary Gun buff. Still their accuracy is laughable, and unrealistic.

[Ascender]

The accuracy on secondaries is fine (judging this by the typical hit rate of 10% which seems good considering the number of guns and the fact they are AI-controlled), the biggest issue I have is their ineffectiveness against Cruisers and Battleships. They are really only useful at damaging soft targets, anything hardier you will find typical results like 150 shots fired, 18 shots hit for a whopping 1000 damage if that. Those same 18 hits against a destroyer would easily result in a figure 8 times that, though the accuracy would be less meaningful.

 

I like the idea of increasing accuracy the longer a target is visible but I feel this implementation but I doubt such a suggestion has any chance of success for a few reasons including that WG will probably perceive it too complex for new players to understand and that it would require a new set of mechanics to be build specifically for it. I know that first reason sounds really stupid but considering how this game is right now I really do feel that is the case with something like this lol. But I could also see some other problems, take for instance American destroyers, especially in the lower tiers, against something like fast battleship. It is already dangerous enough for them to close the distance, with this it would be sheer suicide, even if the BB driver is completely oblivious....

 

I would feel a lot more for a Battlestations-esk approach where you have some level of control over the secondaries and thus can boost their accuracy that way. Above all what we need is some cold, hard numbers so we can actually judge what their accuracy IS. It's hard to judge how to improve it or how much when you don't know what it is. The same for the upgrades, how much do they do!? Only since the last patch did we know how much the main battery upgrade gave (about a 7% decrease in maximum dispersion) but for secondaries we're still completely in the dark.

[AgarwaenME]

 

I don't think DD's need another buff (if the BB buff is added). If they close enough for the Secondary Guns to fire, then the BB's is mostly likely to die anyway from the torpedoes.

 

Which "another buff"? Since DDs have more or less only gotten nerfs, directly or indirectly, due to endless crying from the BB mafia. Nor are BBs automaticly going to die to torpedoes from 5-9 km unless you know.. they're your typical straight sailing, not even turning as they even see DDs sort of BB captain.

[AgarwaenME]

 

Only noobs? I like to think I am decent at the game, and there have been times where cruisers and DD's push my flank, or when I have had to push the flank and take the fire off my ally cruisers. 4-5km range is pathetic for Tier 6-8 BB's, but yes I agree, Tier 9 and 10's do not need a Secondary Gun buff. Still their accuracy is laughable, and unrealistic.

 

Indeed, it's unrealistic, just unrealisticly high that is. You're just comparing it to the absurdly unrealistic hit rates for BB main guns (which I'm not really objecting too, even if it does make mid to high tier BBs into "click and erase enemies" sort of ships with a very low skill ceiling required, because realistic hit rates would simply be unfunny).

[Spellfire40]

Secondary batteries should work like AA.  It should be a zone of consistent DPS so that any ship that wants to get close has to endure an additional layer of damage, with or without a flat percentage chance to set fires/incapacitate modules.

 

To balance such a change, DDs could have a unique passive ability which reduces the damage and incapacity chance by 80% (or whatever) to reflect their size and maneuverability.

 

Job done, BBs are scary to approach for everyone but DDs get an easier time on their close attack runs.

 

Acually they dont. AA does damage planes inside the aura and shoot down some when the damage exedes the hp of a plane. If they fly out of the aura the damage resets. Sec guns fire shells it does not give constant damage. the actions of the target reduces the number of hits sigificantly if it shows a small profile that is because hits have more efects than just removing hp, the set on fire they destroy modules. You see how this 2 mecanics work on total diferent basis?

 

Its the secendary efects that actaully cause the most problems for an atacking DD sice you cant calculate on it like you can with AA auras.

 

At the moment for shor duration ships inside sec arc its roghly a hit rate around 10%. My personal best with my near 8km Warspite were at 14% hitrate around 50 hits of 350 fired

 

 

cya

 

 

Spellfire40

 

[HeliPilot_UK]

The accuracy on secondaries is fine (judging this by the typical hit rate of 10% which seems good considering the number of guns and the fact they are AI-controlled), the biggest issue I have is their ineffectiveness against Cruisers and Battleships. They are really only useful at damaging soft targets, anything hardier you will find typical results like 150 shots fired, 18 shots hit for a whopping 1000 damage if that. Those same 18 hits against a destroyer would easily result in a figure 8 times that, though the accuracy would be less meaningful.

 

I like the idea of increasing accuracy the longer a target is visible but I feel this implementation but I doubt such a suggestion has any chance of success for a few reasons including that WG will probably perceive it too complex for new players to understand and that it would require a new set of mechanics to be build specifically for it. I know that first reason sounds really stupid but considering how this game is right now I really do feel that is the case with something like this lol. But I could also see some other problems, take for instance American destroyers, especially in the lower tiers, against something like fast battleship. It is already dangerous enough for them to close the distance, with this it would be sheer suicide, even if the BB driver is completely oblivious....

 

I would feel a lot more for a Battlestations-esk approach where you have some level of control over the secondaries and thus can boost their accuracy that way. Above all what we need is some cold, hard numbers so we can actually judge what their accuracy IS. It's hard to judge how to improve it or how much when you don't know what it is. The same for the upgrades, how much do they do!? Only since the last patch did we know how much the main battery upgrade gave (about a 7% decrease in maximum dispersion) but for secondaries we're still completely in the dark.

 

You have a good point, and I do agree with everything you said but I feel as if that if the accuracy was increased over time, DD's will still get away with it as they are a much smaller target. Plus any caliber of gun firing HE can easily knock-out Secondary guns, meaning the sheer number of Sec Guns in irrelevant. 

 

And YES! We need those hard-stats for our Sec Guns!

 

A Battalions control idea would probably solve the ineffectiveness of Sec Guns but I think this would be too hard for Wargaming to implement.

[HeliPilot_UK]

 

Which "another buff"? Since DDs have more or less only gotten nerfs, directly or indirectly, due to endless crying from the BB mafia. Nor are BBs automaticly going to die to torpedoes from 5-9 km unless you know.. they're your typical straight sailing, not even turning as they even see DDs sort of BB captain.

 

I'm guessing your a fellow MightyJingles subscriber like me? lol Yes, DD's have got nothing but nerfs, but that is because Smoke screens were way to over-powered in the CBT. I sail Carriers, BB's and Cruisers (up to Tier 8) and DD's to Tier 7.

 

But they did receive a Engine Boost buff and DD's and Cruisers only need to spam HE and Torps everywhere. There ARE skilled players in all classes of Ships, but BB's turn slow as hell (I equip al my BB's with the rudder shift) and they have to worry about Air Attacks, Torpedo attacks from HIDDEN DD's and HE spam from cruisers whilst trying to avoid long range AP fire from enemy BB's.

 

PLUS BB's cannot out-run cruisers, DD's or Planes.

 

Stock BB's with stock Captains have a really poor view range for Torps, so when i'm in my Tier 7 Nagato, I have to deal with high tier (6-9) DD's who can see me and engage me from 10-15 Km away. Only then spotting Torps around 5km away (with a fully upgraded ship and Commander) so you don't have much time to turn your slow-[edited]BB around.

[AgarwaenME]

 

I'm guessing your a fellow MightyJingles subscriber like me? lol Yes, DD's have got nothing but nerfs, but that is because Smoke screens were way to over-powered in the CBT. I sail Carriers, BB's and Cruisers (up to Tier 8) and DD's to Tier 7.

 

But they did receive a Engine Boost buff and DD's and Cruisers only need to spam HE and Torps everywhere. There ARE skilled players in all classes of Ships, but BB's turn slow as hell (I equip al my BB's with the rudder shift) and they have to worry about Air Attacks, Torpedo attacks from HIDDEN DD's and HE spam from cruisers whilst trying to avoid long range AP fire from enemy BB's.

 

PLUS BB's cannot out-run cruisers, DD's or Planes.

 

Stock BB's with stock Captains have a really poor view range for Torps, so when i'm in my Tier 7 Nagato, I have to deal with high tier (6-9) DD's who can see me and engage me from 10-15 Km away. Only then spotting Torps around 5km away (with a fully upgraded ship and Commander) so you don't have much time to turn your slow-[edited]BB around.

 

Smoke wasn't overpowered, it was merely annoying to have a battlefield where no one could see anything at all.

 

Much like HE, it's annoying, but does a paltry amount of damage compared to a BB firing AP, DD (HE does 1-200hp per hit against BBs in higher tiers, and chances to set a BB on fire is neglible for a DD) and that doesn't even take a BBs huge pool of HP, and ability to repair that damage. Even those CAs that are considered borderline OP struggles to be anywhere close to the damage a BB can put out.

 

And guess what, everyone else have to worry about the same things attacking them, they just don't have the armour, torpedo protection, tough to destroy turrets or self repair meaning that even if they avoid more, they take a relatively larger amount of their HP worth of damage from them. Neither are higher end BBs more than a small fraction slower than other ships.

 

Also, spotting torpedoes have next to nothing to do with your captain nor the level up upgrades on your ship.

 

So yes, I really don't think you need to take the class with the lowest skill ceiling, and give them even more passive damage against anyone that gets up close.

[Takeda92]

I'm against any buff to secondaries. As long as they are AI controlled they should not have any considerable contribution other than finishing of a couple of thousands of HP. If WG managed to find a way other than auto-easymode-AI-controlled-click-and-forget then yes. Yamato already has some sick secondaries firepower with it.

[Userext]

 

Only noobs? I like to think I am decent at the game, and there have been times where cruisers and DD's push my flank, or when I have had to push the flank and take the fire off my ally cruisers. 4-5km range is pathetic for Tier 6-8 BB's, but yes I agree, Tier 9 and 10's do not need a Secondary Gun buff. Still their accuracy is laughable, and unrealistic.

 

Well tell that to the times in my kagero taking %50 off my health with 2 HE shots. Yeah i was laughing a lot because it was fun getting killed by "useless and laughable" secondaries. Sorry friend but if you cant use your secondaries effectively then maybe you should focus on your main guns

[HeliPilot_UK]

 

Well tell that to the times in my kagero taking %50 off my health with 2 HE shots. Yeah i was laughing a lot because it was fun getting killed by "useless and laughable" secondaries. Sorry friend but if you cant use your secondaries effectively then maybe you should focus on your main guns

 

I find that very hard to believe, that 2 HE shots took 50% of you HP. That makes no sense. How are you getting killed by Secondaries? Have your tried shooting back? Or maybe stay away from them????

 

Why do you presume that I rely on my Secondaries and not use my main Batteries?

 

This isn't a pissing contest of who is better, I am trying to share my thoughts on a system which I "think" could be improved upon. 

[HeliPilot_UK]

I'm against any buff to secondaries. As long as they are AI controlled they should not have any considerable contribution other than finishing of a couple of thousands of HP. If WG managed to find a way other than auto-easymode-AI-controlled-click-and-forget then yes. Yamato already has some sick secondaries firepower with it.

 

I agree too, I don't expect AI controlled guns to be super effective and relied upon. That's not what I am trying to say, just either make them more of a deterrent rather than an annoyance.  

 

I would prefer, like yourself, to have it manually controlled. An yes, of course the Yamato has awesome Secondaries, it's a Tier 10!  lol  ;)

[HeliPilot_UK]

 

Smoke wasn't overpowered, it was merely annoying to have a battlefield where no one could see anything at all.

 

Much like HE, it's annoying, but does a paltry amount of damage compared to a BB firing AP, DD (HE does 1-200hp per hit against BBs in higher tiers, and chances to set a BB on fire is neglible for a DD) and that doesn't even take a BBs huge pool of HP, and ability to repair that damage. Even those CAs that are considered borderline OP struggles to be anywhere close to the damage a BB can put out.

 

And guess what, everyone else have to worry about the same things attacking them, they just don't have the armour, torpedo protection, tough to destroy turrets or self repair meaning that even if they avoid more, they take a relatively larger amount of their HP worth of damage from them. Neither are higher end BBs more than a small fraction slower than other ships.

 

Also, spotting torpedoes have next to nothing to do with your captain nor the level up upgrades on your ship.

 

So yes, I really don't think you need to take the class with the lowest skill ceiling, and give them even more passive damage against anyone that gets up close.

 

You are very mistaken, upgrades on your ships (Acquisition Upgrade which costs 2,000,000) helps with the spotting of everything. Same with the commander, there is an upgrade for him to spot Torps better. Please have a look at these in the port.

 

And yes your right, it's not only the BB's who have to deal with all the incoming attacks and fire.  But if the enemy have a choice who to shoot at, then GEUSS WHAT? They ignore the Cruisers (and sometimes DD's) and shoot the biggest target with the most HP!

 

As I have said before, 

This isn't a pissing contest of who is better, I am trying to share my thoughts on a system which I "think" could be improved upon. 

[Userext]

 

I find that very hard to believe, that 2 HE shots took 50% of you HP. That makes no sense. How are you getting killed by Secondaries? Have your tried shooting back? Or maybe stay away from them????

 

Why do you presume that I rely on my Secondaries and not use my main Batteries?

 

This isn't a pissing contest of who is better, I am trying to share my thoughts on a system which I "think" could be improved upon. 

 

I was in a kagero and they were capping. yamato ahd al lthe points so i had to hit him. In like 10 seconds 2 HE shells hit me. Took %50 of my health. They were probably 155mm canon's shells. I am not sure if it was 2 or 3 hit i took but i am pretty sure i lost 7k. I didnt die there of course i had a bit health lose before and i was at 3k health. I was 9km away from yamato. I couldnt fire torpedoes they were reloading.

 

I will quote myself from another recent secondary thread

Ah... secondaries again.... 

 

Listen sun shine secondaries in this game is like back of your sword. Do you want to sharpen secondaries? Then you will have to give up on upgrades towards main guns. Do you want to sharpen main batteries? Then you ill have to give up on secondaries. WG simply cant allow you to have bothsides super sharp swords. That is kinda the point of balance. If they make everything equally suck then the game will be more noob friendly and balanced. If they make everything equally superpowerfull it wont be noob friendly. Because the noob doesnt know how to use his sword. He might even hold the sharp side trying to use it.

[HeliPilot_UK]

 

I was in a kagero and they were capping. yamato ahd al lthe points so i had to hit him. In like 10 seconds 2 HE shells hit me. Took %50 of my health. They were probably 155mm canon's shells. I am not sure if it was 2 or 3 hit i took but i am pretty sure i lost 7k. I didnt die there of course i had a bit health lose before and i was at 3k health. I was 9km away from yamato. I couldnt fire torpedoes they were reloading.

 

I will quote myself from another recent secondary thread

 

Well if you are right with your experience, it sounds like he hit you with his main batteries. 2 secondary turrets on the Yamato are big, but not that big. About 203mm I believe. The accuracy on both Main and Secondary guns on the Yamato are really inaccurate. Considering the hit scanning is quite bad in WoW.

 

I like your second older quote, because I know that already. Wargaming has always been about choose 1 path of play-style. But I think that (as said in a previous comment) BB's have a lot on their plate, being the No.1 choice as a target to shoot at, with constant HE spam, and it is not that hard to miss a BB with Shells or Torps.

 

I'm mainly talking about tier 4-7 (maybe tier 8) BB's as their Secondary guns are just there to be destroyed and look pretty. It gets annoying when (for example) I am the last ship alive in a BB, and I am flanked by 2 cruisers and a DD. I can kill 1 cruiser within 1-2 AP  barrages, and then slowly turn my hull and guns to fire at the 2 cruiser. But when the DD and cruiser are close, you have to wait 30+ seconds for your reload and Turret turn time to then be failed by your Secondaries guns failing to do any significant damage.

 

At Tier 9-10 secondary guns are not a problem.

[Userext]

 

Well if you are right with your experience, it sounds like he hit you with his main batteries. 2 secondary turrets on the Yamato are big, but not that big. About 203mm I believe. The accuracy on both Main and Secondary guns on the Yamato are really inaccurate. Considering the hit scanning is quite bad in WoW.

 

I like your second older quote, because I know that already. Wargaming has always been about choose 1 path of play-style. But I think that (as said in a previous comment) BB's have a lot on their plate, being the No.1 choice as a target to shoot at, with constant HE spam, and it is not that hard to miss a BB with Shells or Torps.

 

I'm mainly talking about tier 4-7 (maybe tier 8) BB's as their Secondary guns are just there to be destroyed and look pretty. It gets annoying when (for example) I am the last ship alive in a BB, and I am flanked by 2 cruisers and a DD. I can kill 1 cruiser within 1-2 AP  barrages, and then slowly turn my hull and guns to fire at the 2 cruiser. But when the DD and cruiser are close, you have to wait 30+ seconds for your reload and Turret turn time to then be failed by your Secondaries guns failing to do any significant damage.

 

At Tier 9-10 secondary guns are not a problem.

 

No he didnt hit me with his main batteries. Yamato has 155mm mogami turrets as secondary which has the longest range as secondary

it is hard to hit a BB with torpedoes. Fastest DD torpedoes (if we ignore minekaze) at best has to travel like 45 seconds to reach their target. 45 secs is long enough to let you dodge them without knowing.

By the way it is normal to lose against 2 cruisers in a battleship. It also is normal to lose against 1 destroyer in battleship. It is very unusual to win against 2 cruisers and one destroyer.

[HeliPilot_UK]

 

No he didnt hit me with his main batteries. Yamato has 155mm mogami turrets as secondary which has the longest range as secondary

it is hard to hit a BB with torpedoes. Fastest DD torpedoes (if we ignore minekaze) at best has to travel like 45 seconds to reach their target. 45 secs is long enough to let you dodge them without knowing.

By the way it is normal to lose against 2 cruisers in a battleship. It also is normal to lose against 1 destroyer in battleship. It is very unusual to win against 2 cruisers and one destroyer.

Ah I see 155mm. Still a bit of a surprise he did that :/    and yes your right, you do have loads of time to dodge a DD's torps. BUT he has to be spotted in order to do so, then when he is you either have to be looking at him or just evade anyway which could cost you in fire-power by having to turn you guns around.

 

Yes it is normal to lose, but the whole idea of a BB's despite is massive lack in manoeuvrability and lack of concealment, it is meant to stand a chance, even if it is a 2v1 and not a 3v1. 

 

However, this Secondary Gun Buff (my idea) won't be exclusive to BB's. It would be across the board. So cruisers will have this AS WELL.