Talk about German Tech tree

[cometcruiser]

I'm going to go over old groud, and try and re-ignite to discussion about our hopes and dreams of the German tree.  

 

Great previous and closed post, by Enaris I found, link here

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/46-german-tech-tree-ideas/page__hl__derfflinger__fromsearch__1

 

and the main table that was put together by Enaris

 

Quote:

"Battlecruisers
Tier 2: Von Der Tann
Tier 3: Moltke
Tier 4: Seydlitz
Tier 5: Derfflinger
Tier 6: Hipper (CA)
Tier 7: Deutschland (Panzerschiffe/Pocket Battleship)
Tier 8: Scharnhorst
Tier 9: P Class (8x15", 33.4 kts as designed, never built)
Notice I had to shovel the CA Hipper in as a midtier.
Battleships:
Tier 2: Nassau
Tier 3: Ostfriesland
Tier 4: Kaiser
Tier 5: Kronprinz
Tier 6: Bayern
Tier 7: Some Paper intermediary
Tier 8: Bismarck
Tier 9: H39
Tier 10: H41
Notice that forces 2 paper ships into the mix, even counting the H39 as being something which had been laid down. Also, pushing the Bayern as a Tier 6 is a bit much, as that's where I expect the post war US Standards and maybe the British Nelson to be living.
Now, you could consolidate the lines, likely at the expense of some of the WW1 Battlecruisers. Something along this line
BB/BC
Tier 2: Nassau (BB)
Tier 3: Seydlitz (BC)
Tier 4: Kaiser (BB)
Tier 5:  Bayern (BB)
Tier 6: Deutschland (Panzerschiffe)*
Tier 7: Scharnhorst (BC)
Tier 8: Bismarck (BB)
Tier 9: H39 (BB)
Tier 10: H41
Aside from losing alot of the WW1 era classes, shoveling the Deutschland class in there really doesn't fit all that well.  Now, one possibility would be to move the Deutschland off into a Cruiser line with the Hipper (though the rest of that line is going to be light cruisers, with the possible exception of the Armored Cruisers Schornhorst as a Tier 2 and AC Bluecher as a Tier 3)  You could then move another WW1 era ship into the early list, and bump the Bayern up a level (though a WW1 era BB at Tier 7 is going to be a major stretch in any case).
There are similiar problems with the lighter ships as well, and I make poke at some ideas for them a bit later (depending on my mood, heh).
*Notice, in a later post, I have different thoughts about this line and the role of the Deutschland class"

 

Unquote

 

 

So what do you guys think of his ideas? I preffer the third mixed tree, with Hipper and Deutschland in the cruiser line.  That leaves out my personal favorite the Derfflinger.  Again with 12" guns, that might sit in a battleship line.  

 

If WG go down the same trees we have for US and Japan, there may never be a heavy cruiser line.

 

The main issue that was discussed, and I also agree is that the Germans brought 11" guns into their capital ships in WW2.  They will be outgunned at tier V until tier VIII when the Bismark comes.  How could these smaller guns be brought into the game?.  Particularly if Scharnhorst, Graff Spee are put in the normal battleship line.  Maybe a new method of play, similar to heavy cruisers, with faster firing guns than a normal battleship could work? 

 

Anyway.  After my research recently done on the WW1 ships, I have formed an affection for the Derfflinger.  It is a ship with real soul and character.  And a ship I really want to play. 

[Vaderan]

Not sure what you are intending with this. There are tons of speculations out there, and as far as i know, the cruiser tree for the german navy is more or less revealed, at least for what we are to expect in octobre. It is a flawed tree, anyway.

 

The Deutschland class pocket battleships were heavy cruisers with less, but bigger guns and relatively weak armor. As those, they should be put at tier 7 in the cruiser tree, right between Nürnberg and Hipper.

 

BBs would/should be something like:

 

Tier 2: Deutschland class pre Dreadnaught ship of the line (to match the Mikasa)

Tier 3: Ostfriesland class (sparing Nassau class)

Tier 4: Kaiser class

Tier 5: König class (although it requires compensation for just 2x5 305mm guns and poor speed)

Tier 6: Bayern class (matching the Warspite, less speed but better survivability)

Tier 7: Scharnhorst class (fast and great survivability, weak but rapidly firing long range 11" guns, powerfull secondary armament, maybe upgrade to 6x15" guns with hull upgrade C)

Tier 8: Bismarck class

Tier 9: H39

Tier 10: H41

 

That would be the most realistic and appropriate BB tree for the german line. The german philosophy was always about survivability over firepower, although german engeneers developed guns which weren´t too much of a drawback from foreign higher calibres. Scharnhorsts 11" guns were highly developed, lacking some punch of course, compared to what other tier 7 ships in WoWs will deliver, but she should be able to compensate with a very high survivability, the highest agility of her tier and class, and a great range and rate of fire. That way, she will become a unique ship for her tier, and the bane to all CAs, a threat even to DDs, and a HE avenger to enemy BBs. If wargaming does it right, the Scharnhorst class can become a very versatile class...

[ShuggieHamster]

got to admit I am excited by what the DD line might hold assuming the 1936A Narvik is classed as a DD.

I suspect it could be a CL in the same way a Kuma/Tenryu are but it is considerably smaller with a pretty huge punch, torps and AA. It would slide into the standard cruiser line at 3 or 4 but be very fragile.

[MA89]

I'm excited for h41 and the admiral hipper class.

[Historynerd]

To be honest, both Von der Tann and Nassau seem rather OP for Tier 2... not considering all the issues about having BBs at that Tier...

[Trigger_Happy_Dad]

We worked this out in the german forum:

 

 

Older version with battlecruiser-line:

 

Der deutsche Tech Tree im Blick  [focus on german tech tree]

Teil 1: Schlachtschiffe (und Schlachtkreuzer) des ersten Weltkrieges [bBs and Battlecruisers of ww 1]

Teil 2: Leichte und Schwere Kreuzer des ersten Weltkrieges   [Light and Heavy cruisers of ww 1]

Teil 3: Torpedoboote (und Zerstörer) des ersten Weltkrieges   [Torpedo boats and destroyers of ww 1]

Teil 4: Torpedoboote des zweiten Weltkrieges (und der Zwischenkriegszeit)  [Torpedo boats of ww 2]

Teil 5: Zerstörer des zweiten Weltkrieges   [Destroyers of ww 2]

Teil 6: Leichte und Schwere Kreuzer (sowie Panzerschiffe) des zweiten Weltkrieges (und der Zwischenkriegszeit)    [Light and Heavy cruisers of ww 2]

Teil 7: Schlachtschiffe (und Schlachkreuzer) des zweiten Weltkrieges    [bBs and Battlecruisers of ww 2]

Teil 8: Flugzeugträgerprojekte und potentielle Trägerflugzeuge        [carrier-projects and potential carrier-aircraft]

Teil 9: Potentielle Premiumschiffe (bzw. weitere Kanditanten für den Tree)     [potential premium ships and other candidates for the tree]

 

 

 

 

....but in the end WG decides, so we just have to wait. ;)

[Trigger_Happy_Dad]

http://worldofwarships.eu/en/news/common/gc-announcements/

 

overview:

 

Hermelin  ( I ) Ari:   2 x 2 128mm   Flak: 2 x 2 128mm, 3 x 2 37mm,              2 x 2 20mm   Geschwindigkeit: 24 kn

Dresden ( II ) Ari:   10 x 105mm   Flak: 4 x 7.92mm   Geschwindigkeit: 25 kn

Kolberg ( III ) Ari:   12 x 105mm, 2x 45mm   Flak: ?   Geschwindigkeit: 26 kn

Karlsruhe (IV) Ari: 8x 150mm Torpedos: 2x 2 500mm Flak: 2x 88mm Geschwindigkeit: 27,5 kn

Königsberg ( V ) Ari:   9 x 150mm, 2x 88mm,     Torpedos: 4 x 3 500mm     Flak: 8 x 37mm,  8 x 20mm   Geschwindigkeit: 32 kn

Nürnberg ( VI ) Ari:   9 x 150mm, 8x 88mm,     Torpedos: 4 x 3 533mm     Flak: 8 x 37mm,  8 x 20mm   Geschwindigkeit: 32 kn

Yorck ( VII ) Ari:  …?   Torpdeos: …?     Flak: …?   Geschwindigkeit: …?

Admiral Hipper ( VIII ) Ari:   8 x 203mm,        12 x 105mm,     Torpedos: 4 x 3 533mm     Flak: 12 x 37mm,  8 x 20mm   Geschwindigkeit: 32 kn

Roon ( IX ) Ari:  …?   Torpedos: …?     Flak: …?   Geschwindigkeit: …?

Hindenburg ( X ) Ari:  …?   Torpedos: …?     Flak: …?   Geschwindigkeit: …?

 

 

[ari = arty, Flak = AA, Geschwindigkeit = speed]

 

data from:

 

http://gamemodels3d.com/worldofwarships/

"Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 1906 - 1921"

"Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 1922 - 1946"

 

 

I don't think that Yorck, Roon und Hindenburg will be these ships:

 

 

 

...so we'll have to wait and see! 

 

[BlackSamBellamy]

We worked this out in the german forum:

 

 

Older version with battlecruiser-line:

 

Der deutsche Tech Tree im Blick  [focus on german tech tree]

Teil 1: Schlachtschiffe (und Schlachtkreuzer) des ersten Weltkrieges [bBs and Battlecruisers of ww 1]

Teil 2: Leichte und Schwere Kreuzer des ersten Weltkrieges   [Light and Heavy cruisers of ww 1]

Teil 3: Torpedoboote (und Zerstörer) des ersten Weltkrieges   [Torpedo boats and destroyers of ww 1]

Teil 4: Torpedoboote des zweiten Weltkrieges (und der Zwischenkriegszeit)  [Torpedo boats of ww 2]

Teil 5: Zerstörer des zweiten Weltkrieges   [Destroyers of ww 2]

Teil 6: Leichte und Schwere Kreuzer (sowie Panzerschiffe) des zweiten Weltkrieges (und der Zwischenkriegszeit)    [Light and Heavy cruisers of ww 2]

Teil 7: Schlachtschiffe (und Schlachkreuzer) des zweiten Weltkrieges    [bBs and Battlecruisers of ww 2]

Teil 8: Flugzeugträgerprojekte und potentielle Trägerflugzeuge        [carrier-projects and potential carrier-aircraft]

Teil 9: Potentielle Premiumschiffe (bzw. weitere Kanditanten für den Tree)     [potential premium ships and other candidates for the tree]

 

 

 

 

....but in the end WG decides, so we just have to wait. ;)

 

AWWWWWWWWWWEEEE !. Plz dont capture Tegetthoff class(see spoiler tier IV premium ship), this was an austro-hungarian battleship class in WW I and likely will be one in WoWs in a coming european tech tree.

 

Austria was not a part of germany at that time, later historical experiments have proved to be wrong, Austria will never again be a part of germany.

 

 

[Fenrir2205]

Has there been any info on the release dates for German tree?

[Trigger_Happy_Dad]

 

AWWWWWWWWWWEEEE !. Plz dont capture Tegetthoff class(see spoiler tier IV premium ship), this was an austro-hungarian battleship class in WW I and likely will be one in WoWs in a coming european tech tree.

 

Austria was not a part of germany at that time, later historical experiments have proved to be wrong, Austria will never again be a part of germany.

 

 

 

Like I wrote, doesn't matter what our ideas are, WG decides in the end anyway.

 

We had the impression that Austria-Hungary will have no own tree so we decided to put it in there.

 

But it doesn't matter anyway. ;)

[Userext]

So they arent going to make Prinz Eugen premium?

[Stribog2033]

All that is certain is that Hermelin will be tier I cruiser and Dresden will be tier II

[cometcruiser]

Not sure what you are intending with this. There are tons of speculations out there, and as far as i know, the cruiser tree for the german navy is more or less revealed, at least for what we are to expect in octobre. It is a flawed tree, anyway.

 

The Deutschland class pocket battleships were heavy cruisers with less, but bigger guns and relatively weak armor. As those, they should be put at tier 7 in the cruiser tree, right between Nürnberg and Hipper.

 

BBs would/should be something like:

 

Tier 2: Deutschland class pre Dreadnaught ship of the line (to match the Mikasa)

Tier 3: Ostfriesland class (sparing Nassau class)

Tier 4: Kaiser class

Tier 5: König class (although it requires compensation for just 2x5 305mm guns and poor speed)

Tier 6: Bayern class (matching the Warspite, less speed but better survivability)

Tier 7: Scharnhorst class (fast and great survivability, weak but rapidly firing long range 11" guns, powerfull secondary armament, maybe upgrade to 6x15" guns with hull upgrade C)

Tier 8: Bismarck class

Tier 9: H39

Tier 10: H41

 

That would be the most realistic and appropriate BB tree for the german line. The german philosophy was always about survivability over firepower, although german engeneers developed guns which weren´t too much of a drawback from foreign higher calibres. Scharnhorsts 11" guns were highly developed, lacking some punch of course, compared to what other tier 7 ships in WoWs will deliver, but she should be able to compensate with a very high survivability, the highest agility of her tier and class, and a great range and rate of fire. That way, she will become a unique ship for her tier, and the bane to all CAs, a threat even to DDs, and a HE avenger to enemy BBs. If wargaming does it right, the Scharnhorst class can become a very versatile class...

 

I do like the sound of how the post 1939 battlecruisers would play.  

 

Still no-one has put my Derfflinger in a tree yet!!

[Trigger_Happy_Dad]

 

I do like the sound of how the post 1939 battlecruisers would play.  

 

Still no-one has put my Derfflinger in a tree yet!!

 

So you didn't look at the tree in the spoiler here:  http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/29456-talk-about-german-tech-tree/page__pid__522612#entry522612   ?

 

;)

[Historynerd]

Well, Nassau and Von der Tann in Tier 3 makes much more sense.

 

I think, though, that Austria-Hungary may be part of a later minor tree, so the Tegetthof- and Ersatz Monarch-class battleships could find a place there...

[cometcruiser]

 

So you didn't look at the tree in the spoiler here:  http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/29456-talk-about-german-tech-tree/page__pid__522612#entry522612   ?

 

;)

 

Yea but thats not a spoiler, and no Derfflinger class?

[Vaderan]

The Derfflinger class was one of the most beatifull ship designs ever, and they made a legacy of their own. However, i have doubts that there is room for something like battlecruisers in this game.

I would love to see them, but how do you want to balance them? The maps are too small to make the BC concept work. We already have them ingame, with the Kongo, Myogi and Amagi.

Taking into consideration that the Kongo is a more powerfull BC compared to the Derfflinger, the Derfflinger would make up for a tier IV ship, tier V at best if it receives signifficant advantages in different aspects, to make her a match for the Kongo.

[Trigger_Happy_Dad]

 

Yea but thats not a spoiler, and no Derfflinger class?

 

That's a link to post  #6 in this thread, under the 1st image you'll find this:

 

 

Older version with battlecruiser-line:

 

....and if you click on that spoiler you'll see this:

 

 

so?

[lu11as]

No, the battleship Scharnhorst is not even far of being able to compete in tier 8.

The Scharnhorst will be tier 7.

And the O-class in tier 9 is nonsense.

The O-class is even worse than the Scharnhorst with having the same amount of 15in guns but way less armour

(because she is a battlecruiser and the Scharnhorst a battleship (with 14in belt)).

Being 4 knots faster isnt helping.

The gk10 has nearly the same guns as the Nagato. Its at best tier 8 rather tier 7.

And helgoland would be strange after nassau. They would look too similar. We already have the kawachi.

I would rather see the kaiser-class.

Otherwise I would agree, but I would make the Bismarck the tier 8 ship in the fast line and put something with 16in as the tier 8 slower battleship. Having 16in with l20e and going back to 15in would be strange.

[RAMJB]

No, the battleship Scharnhorst is not even far of being able to compete in tier 8.

 

It's abysmal as a tier 8. Laughable deck armor, extremely limited weaponry for a tier where competition has 9-10 16 inch guns, tear-inducing weak AAA...seriously only redeeming factor would be top speed, but by running a lot you're not going to accomplish much.

 

Scharnhorst looks more or less on par at tier 7. The problem is that chronologically it just doesn't fit at all there, as both Nagato and Colorado are early 1920s ships, but at least it's weak artillery and lack of deck armor will be more than compensated by the 31 knots there.

 

Let's face it, the ship itself is just plain bad (and it was plain bad back in the day aswell). And won't be an easy fit anywhere. Personally for a german tier 7 I'd put an Ersarz York battlecruiser (eight WWI vintage 15 inch guns, decent but somewhat weaker armor than both nagato's and colorado's, 27 knot top speed, and fits chronologically aswell).

[lu11as]

I would agree that this would be the easiest way, except that the AA would be by far too weak.

But i think the Scharnhorst will do good at tier 7 Ok AA, good secondary, good torpedo-belt, the 6x2 38 cm with 2.3 reload wont be such bad.

Not putting the Scharnhorst in would make many people upset. It would be similar to the Bismarck with having a inch less on her guns and some less, but bether turret turnspeed and rate of fire and a small citadel.

 

 

[Maloghigno]

Regarding the german battleships tree... it could be that we will find the Deutschland class at tier VI and Scharnhorst at tier VII ?

They didn't pick the Deutschland as battlecruiser ... may be they see it as pocket-battleship...

[Trigger_Happy_Dad]

 

http://www.twitch.tv/phlydaily/v/18832348

 

Königsberg ab 24:28

 

Admiral Hipper ab 43:23

 

Hindenburg ab 53:42

 

Admiral Hipper ab 1:07:50

 

York ab 1:20:13

 

Hindenburg ab 1:38:21

 

Hindenburg ab 1:59:11

 

Khabarovsk ab 2:16:59

 

Nürnberg ab 2:37:11

 

Hermelin ab 3:06:04

 

Hermelin ab 3:17:28

 

Orlan ab 3:28:18

 

 

[VonPletz]

My guess is Prinz Eugen and Scharnhorst will be premium ships.

The Cruiser line is pretty much set from what I have read and there will be little changes.  No one has talked much about it but what about DDs?  I would like to see some eBoots as one offs as well.

 

[Earl_of_Northesk]

My guess is Prinz Eugen and Scharnhorst will be premium ships.

 

The Cruiser line is pretty much set from what I have read and there will be little changes.  No one has talked much about it but what about DDs?  I would like to see some eBoots as one offs as well.

 

Scharnhorst will be Tier 7. Both because nothing else fits there and its her righful place. Her Armourlayout is similar to the Bismarck, the 11" guns are VERY fast firing.

She will be more of a cruiser killer and even with the option for the 15" guns I doubt anybody will go for these, just as with Mogami.