Bias Against US?

[FloRead]

 

Let's go to Ryuujou. I think it's better mainly because she has more reserve plane + having 2 more planes in the sky. The gap between Hiryuu and Ranger is smaller but Hiryuu just by being more flexible is better. 

 

 

No, a Ryujo can lockdown an Independence using the 3/1/1 loadout and still have a torpedo bomber setup. The good Ryujo players have already figured this out.

[Takeda92]

 

No, a Ryujo can lockdown an Independence using the 3/1/1 loadout and still have a torpedo bomber setup. The good Ryujo players have already figured this out.

 

They can do that as much as they want, they will still lose planes for it. eventually until they ran out of fighters. Don't forget rear gunners were buffed a lot last patch and even they can take out an entire fighter squad if you don't group them up. 

This is not a problem for Ryuujou in particular because she has more planes in reserve. Other IJN carriers can't afford to do it.

[FloRead]

 

They can do that as much as they want, they will still lose planes for it. eventually until they ran out of fighters. Don't forget rear gunners were buffed a lot last patch and even they can take out an entire fighter squad if you don't group them up. 

This is not a problem for Ryuujou in particular because she has more planes in reserve. Other IJN carriers can't afford to do it.

 

I mean a Ryujo air superiority loadout is just straight up superior to anything the Independence has.

 

Ryujo 3/1/1 vs Independence 1/1/1.

The Independence 1 squadron of fighters have no chance, and Ryuho will be able to spare 1 fighter squadron to hunt the Independence's TB and DB squadron. Ryujo's TB and DB squadron is free to roam because Ryuho can always lockdown and win Independence's 1 fighter squadron.

 

Ryujo 3/1/1 vs Independence's 0/1/2.

Ryujo's 3 fighter squadrons to panic Independence's 3 squadrons. Ryujo don't have to shoot them down even, the panic alone is enough. Or if Ryujo hates the US TB squadron so much, sic all 3 fighter squadrons on the TB squadron.

 

Ryujo 3/1/1 vs Independence's 2/0/1.

Contrary to what people think about IJN vs USN fighters, Ryujo's 12 planes can win Independence's 12 planes in the air.

Ryujo's HP/DPS per fighter, 1150/41. Independence's HP/DPS per fighter, 1140/42. 

12 Ryujo fighters means a total of 13800hp and 492dps. Independence's 12 fighters mean 13680hp and 504dps. Granted that the US fighters benefit from dogfighting expertise, the IJN fighters benefit more from fighter survivability traits here. Even if Ryujo spends all her fighters against Independence's fighters here, Independence's 1 DB squadron will never do as much damage as Ryujo's 1 TB and 1 DB squadron.

 

 

 

[MrEasyUK]

Okay so by the sounds of it you still don't think there is an imbalance, next question, is there an other ship in the game capable of launching a fighter in the game other than CV's?

[FloRead]

Okay so by the sounds of it you still don't think there is an imbalance, next question, is there an other ship in the game capable of launching a fighter in the game other than CV's?

 

Yes, cruisers.

[Takeda92]

 

I mean a Ryujo air superiority loadout is just straight up superior to anything the Independence has.

 

Ryujo 3/1/1 vs Independence 1/1/1.

The Independence 1 squadron of fighters have no chance, and Ryuho will be able to spare 1 fighter squadron to hunt the Independence's TB and DB squadron. Ryujo's TB and DB squadron is free to roam because Ryuho can always lockdown and win Independence's 1 fighter squadron.

 

Ryujo 3/1/1 vs Independence's 0/1/2.

Ryujo's 3 fighter squadrons to panic Independence's 3 squadrons. Ryujo don't have to shoot them down even, the panic alone is enough. Or if Ryujo hates the US TB squadron so much, sic all 3 fighter squadrons on the TB squadron.

 

Ryujo 3/1/1 vs Independence's 2/0/1.

Contrary to what people think about IJN vs USN fighters, Ryujo's 12 planes can win Independence's 12 planes in the air.

Ryujo's HP/DPS per fighter, 1150/41. Independence's HP/DPS per fighter, 1140/42. 

12 Ryujo fighters means a total of 13800hp and 492dps. Independence's 12 fighters mean 13680hp and 504dps. Granted that the US fighters benefit from dogfighting expertise, the IJN fighters benefit more from fighter survivability traits here. Even if Ryujo spends all her fighters against Independence's fighters here, Independence's 1 DB squadron will never do as much damage as Ryujo's 1 TB and 1 DB squadron.

 

 

 

 

I'm not so sure about Indy's 1/1/1. RJ 2 squadrons will lose planes against 1 Indy fighter. The other fighter will get annihilated eventually by the rear gunners. That's why you don't send a lone fighter after a bomber. If RJ didn't have more planes (3 sqaudrons worth of planes) this would be balanced. I'm also not sure about the 2/0/1. US will have superiority with dogfight. IJN should have superiority with bombers. But even ten this 1 TB is useless because it will get targeted by AA and killed before it can do any major harm. 

 

MrEasyUK, I asked a question for you myself. As for this thread, proving one or two IJN carrier being better than USN doesn't mean US bias. Every other line has it's bad grind ships (Furutaka, Colorado, Myougi and Izumo, Mutsuki, the tier 3 BBs..etc) and that is wrong but why do you think only US CVs should be any different?

[MrEasyUK]

Wrong answer, Battleships as Patch Update 0.4.0 have a path for either Spotter or Fighter and I believe only certain cruisers can launch fighters (Correct me if I am wrong as i refer to the patch news in this link  Developer Bulletin 0.4.0)

 

So with the amount of CV's in a game, and battleships with Fighter capabilities along with Cruisers it is fair to state that what is happening in a lot of games is that the air is full of fighters and the odd spotter planes good for team protection perhaps, I know this as I am up against fighters all the time.

 

So as a US CV player i have a choice, I either go fighter flight,  two fighters and one bomber, (We established the bombers do pitiful damage for the effort) or have 1 Torp plane and two bombers,  or I go 1 of each, that's all i can do with the US Langley Bogue or Independence, I either go for Clear Sky, which bores me to death, I mean really is boring, or do what I really want to do and sink a ships we all love to sink a ship or two, IJN Players oddly enough have a wider choice with a strike load-out and their strike capability.

 

So to spell it out, in simple terms so you can understand, there are mixed Nations on a team mostly, US or IJN ships, made up of Battleships and CV's etc, so the other team  which has two IJN CV's they have a big payload in terms of strike capability from the start and they have a bigger strike capability to sink a ship,  as a US CV I player I loose my one Torp plane among all the fighters from the other teams fighters from  both the enemy battleships and CV's on the other team  and my real strike ability has gone and the team with IJN carriers have the bigger strike capability and more often than not win... that is not balance.

 

The tail gunner point about US CV's has its place but what of that of a fighter from a battleship with captain upgrades on the opposing team with two IJN CV's, having a tail gunner buff is no way enough to combat the strike capabilities of a team with two IJN Carriers and Battleships and Cruisers that have fighters in the air.

 

They should either change the load-outs of the US CV's to match that of the IJN CV's or they really buff the bombers capabilities, now I have said my bit, I trust you can see what I am talking about, you can look at it which ever way you want, there is a balance issue between nations its plane to see, sorry no pun intended.

 

 

 

[MrEasyUK]

 

I'm not so sure about Indy's 1/1/1. RJ 2 squadrons will lose planes against 1 Indy fighter. The other fighter will get annihilated eventually by the rear gunners. That's why you don't send a lone fighter after a bomber. If RJ didn't have more planes (3 sqaudrons worth of planes) this would be balanced. I'm also not sure about the 2/0/1. US will have superiority with dogfight. IJN should have superiority with bombers. But even ten this 1 TB is useless because it will get targeted by AA and killed before it can do any major harm. 

 

MrEasyUK, I asked a question for you myself. As for this thread, proving one or two IJN carrier being better than USN doesn't mean US bias. Every other line has it's bad grind ships (Furutaka, Colorado, Myougi and Izumo, Mutsuki, the tier 3 BBs..etc) and that is wrong but why do you think only US CVs should be any different?

 

I understand that there are poor ships in the Tier upgrade tree, that doesn't mean they shouldn't do something about it, I also think Battelships need a buff and they should stop the dispersion of shots as the grouping of shots on some battleships is silly, but back on track.

 

Langley, Bogue, Independence they all have the same issue, I would of expected improvement after being on my 3rd  US CV and coming up on my 4th CV and they all have the same pitiful load outs and strike capabilities, the US CV is challenging but could improve if  I can at least choose two Torp Planes so i can mix up my game play but I cant when every IJN tier has this ability, they have a far better strike capability thus more of an impact on the game.

 

Call me any name you like, I don't spout out on the forums for no good reason I am trying to get change, I don't find the US CV's enjoyable as they should be as I am coming up on my 4th US CV, so I have choice I can go IJN, but if everyone goes IJN CV what happens then?.... at the moment they are a game changer and it is right slap there in our faces and the games are becoming predictable.

 

 

 

[Takeda92]

Well, that's a lot better post than your other one. You are right that USN CVs are not fun. But IJN CVs are no where as good as you make them seems. They have their problems as well. You can see it in their stats, in other peoples posts and if you tried them out yourself.

Btw, even if there was 2 IJN CVs on the enemy team. You have another CV on your team helping you. Work with him. Try to see if you both can make something together.

[MrEasyUK]

Yes your right but again the loadouts are just the same for the IJN and US CV in each which is the issue...we are running around in circles here.

[RapscallionDK]

planes of the ryuujou: 5 squadrons of 4 planes = 20

planes of the independence: 3 squadrons of 6 planes = 18

 

so it IS pretty balanced, cause if you would add one more squadons to the us side, it would be 20 vs 24... would it be better?

 

When you compare raw number of planes total, sure stuff looks somewhat balanced. But in reality 5 squadrons vs 3 means more flexibility, more map coverage and thanks to the stupid combat system where if your fighters are engaged they cant move, means that several IJN squadrons will be able to fly past easily.

 

I dont mind the japs having extra squadron but this is not balanced.

 

Either they need to change up the squadrons/number of planes so that the japs at most have 1 extra squadron than US or they need to redesign the US layouts.

[FloRead]

 

Wouldnt a 2/1/0 loadout be fair to give to fx the Indy?

 

There will be massive resistance to this. The Independence will also always strictly put out more damage than the Ryujo.

[Takeda92]

 

 

It seems to me that the problem with US CVs are the loadouts. As many have expressed the 2/0/1 loadout is crap for XP and the 1/1/1 loadout is mediocre in every aspect leading to the same result.

 

Wouldnt a 2/1/0 loadout be fair to give to fx the Indy?

 

Look at the stats of USN TBs and their spread, then compare it to the IJN TB spread and damage, you'll see why this is bad. If they buffed the IJN TB (unlikely) or nerfed the USN TB then yes, I agree. But with the current stats? big no!

[MrEasyUK]

 

There will be massive resistance to this. The Independence will also always strictly put out more damage than the Ryujo.

 

There will be a lot more people disappointed if they don't so something about this which I am sure will pale in comparison to any resistance, everyone I know and play with is in agreement.

[Liare]

 

I'm not so sure about Indy's 1/1/1. RJ 2 squadrons will lose planes against 1 Indy fighter. The other fighter will get annihilated eventually by the rear gunners. That's why you don't send a lone fighter after a bomber. If RJ didn't have more planes (3 sqaudrons worth of planes) this would be balanced. I'm also not sure about the 2/0/1. US will have superiority with dogfight. IJN should have superiority with bombers. But even ten this 1 TB is useless because it will get targeted by AA and killed before it can do any major harm. 

 

MrEasyUK, I asked a question for you myself. As for this thread, proving one or two IJN carrier being better than USN doesn't mean US bias. Every other line has it's bad grind ships (Furutaka, Colorado, Myougi and Izumo, Mutsuki, the tier 3 BBs..etc) and that is wrong but why do you think only US CVs should be any different?

 

practical experience indicate you're wrong, the Independence fighters trade roughly 10-11 for 12 for the RJ, and carries less fighters, this means fighter-setup vs fighter-setup the independence loses due to lack of reserves, and it trades in basically all its offensive power versus the RJ who trades in roughly 2/3rds, so the Indepednece doesn't have superiority in terms of dogfighting either.

[Takeda92]

 

practical experience indicate you're wrong, the Independence fighters trade roughly 10-11 for 12 for the RJ, and carries less fighters, this means fighter-setup vs fighter-setup the independence loses due to lack of reserves, and it trades in basically all its offensive power versus the RJ who trades in roughly 2/3rds, so the Indepednece doesn't have superiority in terms of dogfighting either.

 

Well if you read my previous posts, you'd see me saying that the reason Indy is worse than RJ is because of lower amount of reserves. That is the only imbalance I see between the two.

[Liare]

 

I'm not so sure about Indy's 1/1/1. RJ 2 squadrons will lose planes against 1 Indy fighter. The other fighter will get annihilated eventually by the rear gunners. That's why you don't send a lone fighter after a bomber. If RJ didn't have more planes (3 sqaudrons worth of planes) this would be balanced. I'm also not sure about the 2/0/1. US will have superiority with dogfight. IJN should have superiority with bombers. But even ten this 1 TB is useless because it will get targeted by AA and killed before it can do any major harm.

 

 

Well if you read my previous posts, you'd see me saying that the reason Indy is worse than RJ is because of lower amount of reserves. That is the only imbalance I see between the two.

 

*ahem*

simply put, they dont even have superiority in terms of the actual dogfight, it's basically so close it's decided by RNG if both captains have the appropriate skills and equipment mounted, only the RJ gets what ? 25% more planes ?

 

it's a obvious case of a pair of ships where one is flat out superior, but surely it's balllanced!

[MrEasyUK]

It is not just a CV v CV fight its a team fight, given the different classes that can place fighters in the air and more often than not one team will have two US CVs; and the other team 2 IJN CV's it happens all to often, you do get the occasional mix but more often it is 2 US v 2 IJN the team with the two IJN have the skys

 

The Langley, Bogue, Independence all have the same flight load-outs its stupid, the time an effort of the US CV is waste of time when you have the capabilities of the IJN CV, something needs to be done.

 

Bombers need a serious damage boost or the flight load outs need changing, 1 torp and 2 bombers that do little damage is very poor... at least give the US CV's the option of two Torp planes.

 

 

[Takeda92]

 

 

*ahem*

simply put, they dont even have superiority in terms of the actual dogfight, it's basically so close it's decided by RNG if both captains have the appropriate skills and equipment mounted, only the RJ gets what ? 25% more planes ?

 

it's a obvious case of a pair of ships where one is flat out superior, but surely it's balllanced!

 

No it's not.

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/29099-ijn-cv-op/page__pid__536964#entry536964

 

Note that USN fighters are slower, so they benefit from dogfight skill.

[Lopi]

 

No it's not.

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/29099-ijn-cv-op/page__pid__536964#entry536964

 

Note that USN fighters are slower, so they benefit from dogfight skill.

I would take speed over dogfight skill any day. Greater speed means you get to decide when and where to engage. Independece with a 2/0/1 setup will always play defensively against a 3/1/1 Ruyjo. Ruyjo has map control in these match ups automatically.

 

Independence is at a significant distadvantage here. How you can argue against this is beyond me. Or maybe you just don't want to see Ruyjo nerfed/Independence buffed.

[Takeda92]

 

Independence is at a significant distadvantage here. How you can argue against this is beyond me. Or maybe you just don't want to see Ruyjo nerfed/Independence buffed.

 

You'd think people will read something I said just a couple of post ago. Why am I even arguing here?

[MrEasyUK]

 

You'd think people will read something I said just a couple of post ago. Why am I even arguing here?

 

It is not just reserves Takeda92 it is the strike capability and flight loadouts, they suck on US carriers.  The US CV does not have the strike capability of IJN carriers and its silly

 

I loved World of Tanks, it was a great game, still play it now and then but the effort put in to the game to level tanks that do damage and have armor to hold their own has become a waste of time due to nerfs and the the damage that smaller tanks do, you want and level a vehicle that is awesome and now it was a waste of time due to nerfs.

 

World of Warships is starting out, if they do not Buff certain things in World of Warships it means that a lot things from start are not worthwhile, for example I am thinking leveling through the Tiers for the Tier 10 US CV, but now to me with the total balls of an imbalance it  is a total utter waste of my time.

[gravelbelly]

I agree, I'm at Independence, I see no improvement on next ship eiher so I will NOT bother to progress up the chain. I don't give a toss if the top tiers are good, I wan't to enjoy a progression not hate it. It is bad enough to bee at a disadvantege in DDs, but at least they are playable and I will continue to Fletcher then stop

[Bregil]

The Langley, Bogue, Independence all have the same flight load-outs its stupid, the time an effort of the US CV is waste of time when you have the capabilities of the IJN CV, something needs to be done.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but I'd point out that the Langley doesn't even get dive bombers.

[FloRead]

I agree, I'm at Independence, I see no improvement on next ship eiher so I will NOT bother to progress up the chain. I don't give a toss if the top tiers are good, I wan't to enjoy a progression not hate it. It is bad enough to bee at a disadvantege in DDs, but at least they are playable and I will continue to Fletcher then stop

 

Oh dear.

 

Gets worse before it gets equal definitely.