Of RNG & "skill"

[daki]

Very often do we see the claim on forums that the RNG in WoWs goes against the "skill", i.e. that less RNG would somehow increase the "skill" component of the game.

 

But is that really so?

 

Before elaborating, let me clearly point out that I am referring here solely to the shooting "skill" and not other components of overall skill which basically include: shooting skill (ability to hit with shells by judging distances, speed, direction..), situational awareness (tactical perspective, referring to the ability to track developments and respond appropriately in the vicinity), maneuvering (not only the driving/sailing component or the ability to angle properly, but also being at the right spot at the right time), and finally team awareness (strategic perspective, referring to awareness of both your and enemy team, battle flow...).

Also let me point out that in my opinion a good player has to have all of the above sufficiently developed since having only the shooting skill, but having a lack of situational awareness or being bad at maneuvering for example will not get you far.

 

To go back on point, the RNG in WoWs is mostly visible though gun dispersion, which varies depending on guns from less than 100m to about 300m.

At the same time, and this is different compared to most other games, we have relatively huge hitboxes as ship lengths tend to be up to several hundred meters.

 

So lets assume the following - simplified mechanics to make the point more clear:

- Ship length of 200m at 90deg angle to guns going at whatever speed

- 1 gun with 0 dispersion

- 1 notch on the aim sight being the  equivalent of say 25m.

So if you are trying to aim at the middle of the ship you can still have your aiming  judgement off by 4 notches left or right  and you will still certainly (100% chance) hit the ship.

In other words, with 0 RNG you have a rather big room for error while still being able to hit the ship:

----x---- as graphical representation of ideal position and room for error while still hitting the enemy ship

 

Now lets assume 100m dispersion, i.e. that after firing the shell will hit up to 50m to the left or right of ship middle depending on RNG. You still have room for error, but it is much smaller as only if you are off in aiming up to 2 notches can you reliably hit the target (100%) otherwise you might or might not hit it depending on RNG. In other words:

--x-- ideal position and room for error while still hitting the ship

 

Based on the above the RNG in fact increases the shooting skill requirement taking into account the size of targets and other game mechanics.

In other words, reducing RNG increases the room for error while aiming, hence there is much less skill required.

 

P.S. Of course, I am not judging with the above opinion if the existing level of RNG should be changed slightly (one or the other way), but just that the basic mechanic of RNG is an excellent solution for this "large hitbox" naval type of game to differentiate more skilled and less skilled players.

P.P.S. Lets be honest, LUCK (i.e. RNG) even in RL represented an important factor in historic battles - even though I could not care less about the "historic" argument when discussing an arcade game.

[Supakadai]

RNG is about either killing a ship with one salvo or keep on missing for the entire match while aiming at the exactly same spot. This game is all about zigzaging in the open sea and rolling dice. The skill is the least effective factor here.

[Hibasnev]

real randomness plays a minor part in WoWs but unless you can read the minds of half a dozen opponents, things will still be out of your control nonetheless.

[Userext]

The skill is the least effective factor here.

 

Oppositely someone who is skilled enough can do monster amount of damage while someone who isnt skilled enough will do poor damage. RNG isnt here to keep the diffrence between skilled players and noobs to min. Everyone knows how to aim a gun not everyone knows how to aim an artillerity

[Supakadai]

People take too much credit for their "skill". As I said, you might take out a ship with a single salvo or you might be missing, dinging or doing minimal damage for long periods of time. Also RNG isn't here to differentiate people, that's just utter nonsense horsecrap. Quite the opposite, with large RNG variation you even the odds between the "skilled" (lol) as they get "bad luck" streaks and the "less skilled" who often simply get lucky.

[ZoidFile]

There is no skill only Zuul RNG!

[RDYSET]

This thread has about as much chance of getting anywhere as a Kawachi does at hitting citadels at 6km. ;)

[Memo1991]

 

Oppositely someone who is skilled enough can do monster amount of damage while someone who isnt skilled enough will do poor damage. RNG isnt here to keep the diffrence between skilled players and noobs to min. Everyone knows how to aim a gun not everyone knows how to aim an artillerity

 

Well RNG doesn't even effect the unskilled player so leave it a part. In fact all the RNG does is hurting the skilled. 

[Userext]

 

Well RNG doesn't even effect the unskilled player so leave it a part. In fact all the RNG does is hurting the skilled. 

 

oh poor guy. Sure RNG effects the skilled more right? Not the people who think they are skilled. no no no no no

[Memo1991]

 

oh poor guy. Sure RNG effects the skilled more right? Not the people who think they are skilled. no no no no no

 

I am not poor, if you have an argument please judge polity. Here is example

 

Unskilled player -> off-aiming a target = RNG will never make you hit it.

Skilled player -> aiming a target  = RNG is there to decide.

 

It can make you the best in the world one shooting the target. Or it can make a miss and being just like the unskilled player doing no damage.

 

So Does RNG help you aim or make you aim better ?! Not really ...

   

[Valkyrie_7]

Players will either shoot accurately or not based on their skill. Someone who can't shoot simply won't hit with any real consistency. RNG gets involved when you put a perfect salvo right at where the enemy ship is just to have all the rounds land both too short and too far (or generally all around the target), effectively scoring no hits. And then one stray shot hits you at the edge of your aft and apparently that's a citadel hit. And then there are one in a million random ammorack detonations.

 

RNG doesn't make anyone skilled or not, it's just annoying.

[Dominico]

 

 

Skill is the most important factor and intelligence.

 

I hate the word rng and prefer to use reality.

 

This was around in ww2 gunnery. And in firing a bow and arrow. In shooting a gun. In kicking a football.  They all have your rng life has it. In a boxing match. In a motor race.

 

Skilled people know how to minimise the effect of variation. Firing at broadsides. Punching when an opponents jaw is showing. Closing distance and brawling in the right ship. Catching enemies with torps in narrows.  Poor players whine and similar to those who believe the mm cheats them and life cheas them they whine and blame it on their shortcomings.

 

Rng is life. Get used to it in realistic games.  If they take away rng (ie hugely buff accuracy) they actually lower the skill making the gap between players less.  

[True_Winterfeld]

Dear RNGesus bless us all in our daily endeavor at sea. May our aim be true and the dispersion small. Amen.

 

I would like it if players wouldnt just hone their fireing skils, but also and formost their teamplay and situational awerness, like reading and understanding the minimap and what is happening. Shoting? If you are not completly mentally/visually handicaped, you will hit enough.

[Userext]

 

I am not poor, if you have an argument please judge polity. Here is example

 

Unskilled player -> Will aim poorly and miss. Then s/he will come on to forum to whine about battleship RNG

Skilled player -> Will aim properly and hit his targets. Sure s/he wont hit his targets %100 of the time but only good players can pull high damage out of a battleship

 

It can make you the best in the world one shooting the target. Or it can make a miss and being just like the unskilled player doing no damage.

 

So Does RNG help you aim or make you aim better ?! Not really ...

   

 

Fixed that for you.

RNG is the code name for luck in game. The game doesnt present you a super high roll on luck. 

 

Let me look at your stats... wow. You do know that you are a total newbie and dont know jack... about aiming in this game right?

It is your fault that you are having bad results. Its not just your aim no. You have to know where you are trying to hit. You can check my arkansas stats. I dont like battleships. They are too slow for me which i get bored too quickly. I have %21 hit ratio you have %19 hit ratio and %23 hit ratio. But you have bad results. You know whats the reason for that? You arent aiming correctly. You arent just trying to hit the enemy ship. You have to hit their criticallly damagable part(citadel). I assume you came from WT or some other game and you think RNG controlls your aim. It isnt effecting your aim at all. 

 

By the way poor guy isnt an insult. I am not calling you poor or identifying your wealth. "Poor" there is used for pity.

[Deathnine]

Sure the RNG might not controll your aim, but it bloody well controls were your shots go, I've played enough BB's too know that there is RNG that will either make your salvo go way of or make you dead on target. Far to many times i have perfect lineup for salvo ends up with 1 Overpenetrain (1400 ish dmg) and was that cause of my aim? Sometimes sure, mostly No. Rng loves to mess your salvos up, which is relativly annoying when u have 30 secs reload time.

 

But it's WG way of balancing the game, otherwise you would see skilled players 1shotting people left and right. So saying RNG isent there and is [edited], well then your just wrong.

[Kranodor]

Very often do we see the claim on forums that the RNG in WoWs goes against the "skill", i.e. that less RNG would somehow increase the "skill" component of the game.

 

But is that really so?

 

To go back on point, the RNG in WoWs is mostly visible though gun dispersion, which varies depending on guns from less than 100m to about 300m.

At the same time, and this is different compared to most other games, we have relatively huge hitboxes as ship lengths tend to be up to several hundred meters.

 

So lets assume the following - simplified mechanics to make the point more clear:

 

Based on the above the RNG in fact increases the shooting skill requirement taking into account the size of targets and other game mechanics.

In other words, reducing RNG increases the room for error while aiming, hence there is much less skill required.

 

Okay, got it. And yeah, it's true: RNG, in a simplified model, reduces the margin of error, and thus increases the requirement to aiming skill.

 

Two points, though:

1. A bit of an oversimplification: The dispersion isn't horizontal only, but also vertical (or rather: distance). In short shots, neither dispersion matters as much (but vertical even less so, since any shell that would hit water behind the enemy will probably still hit the hull on a flat trajectory shot) but in long shots, it makes a world of difference. I don't mind it as much, it's part of what makes WoWs (all WG games, really) feel more like an RPG-based MOBA than a twitch-based shooter. But the vertical dispersion can make shots land in front of or behind an enemy ship, because ships are usually far longer than wide. It's most obvious in those shots where your shells hit water along the whole length of the enemy hull - but some shots of the salvo behind it, and other shots of the same salvo in front of it. In this case, the skilled player, who aimed true - speed, distance and so on - does exactly as many hits as someone whose aim was completely off: Zero.

(While this feels like RNG negates skill in a singular case, it doesn't matter as much in the grander picture: The skilled player will probably hit with second and/or third salvo, the player whose aim is off will probably still miss most of them.)

2. The whole margin of error thing only works if your goal is to just hit the ship in any way possible. The moment you want to aim at a specific spot (say, citadel), dispersion can be so wide in relation to the target area that even with perfect aim, the shot will miss it (and only hit the ship somewhere else), while another player may score a lucky hit even if his aim was off. (Of course, RNG might make his shot land even further away from the desired spot, but in the singular occurrence, again, this feels like being cheated by RNG.)

 

But apart from that, I agree. It's another factor to be aware of, even if it sometimes feels like it's stacked against you. And it's a good way to prevent combat resolutions that might be too quick (as said above: more RPG-esque than twitch-shooting, including abundance of one-shot kills)

[Praxics]

So lets assume the following - simplified mechanics to make the point more clear:

 

There is your error. You simplified the matter.

You assume you only have dispersion in the horizontal lane, you don't. And you assume the target does nothing to avert the incoming disaster, you bet many do.

 

You can have your salvo right on target and miss every shot in an extreme case.

BBs have a beam of roughly 30 to 36 meters, cruiser ranging from 15 to 30 meters. Depending on your distance and shell trajectory it might be a thin line you try to hit.

Of course you can have your salvo right on target and everything bounces or over penetrates for 1k.

And you can be right on target and get 3x citadel blasting it out of the water in one salvo just the same.

 

Next thing up is shell flight time. My random guess of the day is that on average a BBs shell is probably for 6 seconds in the air as most battles take place beyond 10km range.

That is plenty of time to change course or speed. Once the shell leaves the muzzle its simply out of your hand and in the hand of the enemy captain and RNG what will happen.

 

Thing is your aim only ensures you are straggling the target. RNG decides if and what you will hit in which manner. Unless you brawl...

 

Just yesterday I had my best game in my Amagi yet. I was hitting the citadels of basically everyone and everything. Sunk 5 ships, got tons of awards making 177k damage and 500k Credits mine.

Two games later in Fuso I was missing everything. Cruiser could steam right thru my shells just getting a little wet…

 

Do I want to change that? I think BBs could do with a little less dispersion but overall I think it works as intended.

After all BBs seem to do fine.

[Dominico]

Another real life example to close this argument.

 

Muskets.  Huge let's say RUG for you guys. The musket ball flew all over the place the materiel in the barrel made it flip direction. The barrel was smooth pre so the ball could change trajectory. It was a pretty random inaccurate gun. 

 

Musketeers and other sharp shooters and snipers. Trained in using these muskets to a high level and accuracy.Able to take into account the issues with the weapon and kill.

 

Buh buuhh but the RNG meant that the results were easier for low skilled people!!

So wait you mean a peasant who picked up a musket got better or equal results to a musketeer?

Ummmm. .. er. 

 

That's a bad example!!!  RNG favours bad skill!!!

 

No... no it does not. 

[Rombescu]

I have a huge problem, about the RNG, and i am asking you lot, if it ever feels or happens to you: 

Day 1: Shooting in X way, everything goes fine, citadels over citadels(with battleships)

Day 2: Shooting in the same X way, i don't hit anything.

I just do not get it.Is it me, am i crazy or is there some RNG truly controling my aim day by day ?

I truly hit the same way, daily, one day it goes kaboom devastating strikes all day long, next day feels  just the opposite.No citadels or anything.

[Kranodor]

Another real life example to close this argument.

 

What argument? Everyone is pretty much agreeing, there's just different layers of evaluation, and different terminology.

 

If we argue about general, long-term effects, then the thread starter is right and - here's the kicker - the fact that RNG is there means that more skill is required to hit, because the margin of error is lower.

However, he argues from a standpoint of ship length versus dispersion (that is: a target to be hit that is smaller or similar in size as the dispersion) - it doesn't hold if the target area is much smaller. While then, it still holds true that the person who aims better (accounting for dispersion) has a higher likelihood to hit, especially if the distribution of hit chances is weighed towards the centre (like in World of Tanks), the effect is greatly diminished and RNG (and thus random results) may have a greater impact. (Clarification: Higher likelihood to hit, especially if weighed. Effect is greatly diminished in either case, but less so if weighed.)

This leads to the other side of the equation: If we argue about singular events, of course, RNG may have adverse effects. A perfectly aimed shot might miss, and a poor shot might critically hit. Sadly, it's these events that we remember better in the long run (bread, butter, price of carpet, you know) which makes "feeling" go the other way.

 

I have a huge problem, about the RNG, and i am asking you lot, if it ever feels or happens to you: 
Day 1: Shooting in X way, everything goes fine, citadels over citadels(with battleships)
Day 2: Shooting in the same X way, i don't hit anything.
I just do not get it.Is it me, am i crazy or is there some RNG truly controling my aim day by day ?
I truly hit the same way, daily, one day it goes kaboom devastating strikes all day long, next day feels  just the opposite.No citadels or anything.

 

What do you pay attention to when you shoot the same way? Which ship you're on, which ship you're shooting at, and most importantly: How far away it is?

I know that my daily performance (and perception thereof) may vary greatly, based on what a kind of day I had at work, how awake or tired I am, if I played something else beforehand, how my previous battles went, which ships I have been driving and am driving, and what kinds of players are online (the latter, usually comparable by day and time, actually plays a HUGE role in my performance, as I've seen in WoT thanks to vbaddicts great stat trackers).

 

In my case, it's usually myself doing stuff wrong. A common problem is switching ammo type too far away (too early) or too close (too late), which can and will make a huge difference, especially if I don't consider distance, what ship I'm in and what ship I'm shooting at properly, which can happen if I play on tilt, because a few rounds have not been going too well. Another thing is shooting at targets too small while they're away too far.

 

[General_Kunde]

Dispersion (RNG) favours bad players because they would most likely miss a whole salvo, but RNG gives them the opportunity to spread and probably grant them 1-2 hits. It's like pulling the trigger of a shot-gun, everybody can do that. But what happens if we switch to a rifle?

 

I remember one-hitting a Kongo in my New Mex (no detonation).

And you know what? I knew you right after the shells had left the barrels as they formed in almost zero-spread salvo and hit right there where I wanted them to arrive.

Result: 5 Citadels + extra pens

 

This was the [edited]best shot I ever had.

 

Why have I been that happy? => Because I didn't know this was even possible.

Why have I been that sad? => Because I knew this wouldn't happen again soon (unfortunately)

 

RNG therefore favours bad players as they would leave after getting one-salvo'ed from better players most of the time.

But bad players bring WG the moneyz.

 

Moneyz rule the world (of warships).

[Userext]

 

 

Battleship aim here is same with artillerity aim at world of tanks. Yuo remember that ellipse aim "circle" ? Thats the same thing you get here. Shots going left and right too much means get closer. But when you get closer the short and long shots will increase. RNG is not effecting anyone's aim its just people with huge egos that came from wot keeps whining about it.

[LilJumpa]

For shooting there is only one big RNG factor in WoWs which is the dispersion of the guns. Then there are several chances of something happening like Module damage, fires or flooding which you can hardly influence 

 

Just for  comparison:

In WoT there are 3 things affected by RNG while shooting: Penetration (+/- 25%), damage (+/- 25%) and dispersion (depending on the gun)

 

"Skill" is maximising your chances to hit and penetrate while minimising your opponents chances to hit and penetrate. Its all about math and probabilities.

 

Looking at Torpedos in WoWs, there is not a single RNG factor involved. Damage has fixed % depending on where you hit the ship and what kind of ship it is. Everything else is just skill dependant.

Go figure why so many people hate Torpedos......

 

 

Btw: Nice Vid about RNG

 

 

 

[OldGrandad]

Another real life example to close this argument.

 

Muskets.  Huge let's say RUG for you guys. The musket ball flew all over the place the materiel in the barrel made it flip direction. The barrel was smooth pre so the ball could change trajectory. It was a pretty random inaccurate gun. 

 

Musketeers and other sharp shooters and snipers. Trained in using these muskets to a high level and accuracy.Able to take into account the issues with the weapon and kill.

 

Buh buuhh but the RNG meant that the results were easier for low skilled people!!

So wait you mean a peasant who picked up a musket got better or equal results to a musketeer?

Ummmm. .. er. 

 

That's a bad example!!!  RNG favours bad skill!!!

 

No... no it does not. 

 

I have a huge problem, about the RNG, and i am asking you lot, if it ever feels or happens to you: 

Day 1: Shooting in X way, everything goes fine, citadels over citadels(with battleships)

Day 2: Shooting in the same X way, i don't hit anything.

I just do not get it.Is it me, am i crazy or is there some RNG truly controling my aim day by day ?

I truly hit the same way, daily, one day it goes kaboom devastating strikes all day long, next day feels  just the opposite.No citadels or anything.

 

Hello, Dominico's reply above probably sums up the randomness of events, in this case firing large calibre guns. We do not have effects in game currently (weather/sea/wind conditions) that would have affected shell firing so RNG is put in to alter dispersion every salvo. Having read Norman Friedman's Naval Firepower and the section dealing with propellants, guns and shells the amount of factors (even engine vibration) that affected the accuracy was pretty astounding.

          Accuracy, and being skilled enough to be accurate for the majority of the time is one part of the equation, but the dispersion always plays its part no matter your accuracy making you feel sometimes that you are not actually accurate. Frustrating? Absolutely. But, it (RNG) is the same for all, the one defining aspect is the skill to be accurate often and there are those that are plain inaccurate and not even RNG will make them hit more than they should.

[Kuningas_Arthur]

Dispersion (RNG) favours bad players because they would most likely miss a whole salvo, but RNG gives them the opportunity to spread and probably grant them 1-2 hits. It's like pulling the trigger of a shot-gun, everybody can do that. But what happens if we switch to a rifle?

 

I remember one-hitting a Kongo in my New Mex (no detonation).

And you know what? I knew you right after the shells had left the barrels as they formed in almost zero-spread salvo and hit right there where I wanted them to arrive.

Result: 5 Citadels + extra pens

 

This was the [edited]best shot I ever had.

 

Why have I been that happy? => Because I didn't know this was even possible.

Why have I been that sad? => Because I knew this wouldn't happen again soon (unfortunately)

 

RNG therefore favours bad players as they would leave after getting one-salvo'ed from better players most of the time.

But bad players bring WG the moneyz.

 

Moneyz rule the world (of warships).

 

I've had that happen to me once. Was in my Myogi or Kongo, can't remember which one I had at the time, game started and I went on my merry way, and only a couple minutes into the game an enemy BB (can't remember what it was) shot at me, I knew he'd shoot and I knew I was out of position but the result was just... Well all I could do at that point was just laugh my a$$ off 4 citadel pens and 2 regular hits, left my one-second-ago-full-hp BB on 3k health and was sunk by another enemy 3 seconds later. The guy who hit me actually went and apologized for sending me to an early grave, he was just as shocked as I was!