RN BBs

[Spellfire40]

Don't forget Spellfire the Nelsons handled like slugs. She may be able to take a lot of artillery punishment but she's torpedo bait at the same time. I'll agree with you both, the KGV were extremely well designed ships and the RN probably produced the best 14" guns in the world. Trouble is KGV's speed and citadel are Tier 9 territory and I don't think the 14" would cut it that high up the tech tree. I'd think they'd make a great Tier 8 Premium though.

 

KGV has 10 guns if they have enogh RoF and are acurate they can be efective enogh to put it in the T8 range. Atm we dont have enogh infos wat makes RN unique compared to KM/IJM and USN. The only real downside for Nelson at T9 is its speed(and the fact that it would be the older ship before a posible KGV at T8)

[HariSeldon]

 

KGV has 10 guns if they have enogh RoF and are acurate they can be efective enogh to put it in the T8 range. Atm we dont have enogh infos wat makes RN unique compared to KM/IJM and USN. The only real downside for Nelson at T9 is its speed(and the fact that it would be the older ship before a posible KGV at T8)

 

I think the guns will suffer a lot if faced t10, how you plan that tier8 damage a yamato? Firing he only? That would make it very MM dependant, and a joy to play in cruisers battles, and a pain to battle those high tier high armor BB. You have to think closely to make it balanced....and playable...and fun too.

[Killerbin34]

If Warspite is anything to go by the RN BB 'Thing' could be exceptionally good secondaries backed up by good main guns. And maybe even increased resistance to torpedo attack 

[Spellfire40]

 

I think the guns will suffer a lot if faced t10, how you plan that tier8 damage a yamato? Firing he only? That would make it very MM dependant, and a joy to play in cruisers battles, and a pain to battle those high tier high armor BB. You have to think closely to make it balanced....and playable...and fun too.

 

Tirpitz can manage wins german have the worst HE shells practical being forced to use AP. The point is not to win agist a Yamato. The point is being comatable to a Amagi/ NC / Tirplitz and Tirpiz showed fast firing Guns have a place ( at its are not the most acurate). Add a bit tighter spread and at least comparable ROF and you will have a ship that is Fun to play even it its rof is "just" compareble to compensate for the lower alpha.

[piritskenyer]

In case anyone is interested in some detailed penetration figures from British guns

http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/Penetration_Britain.htm

http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/Penetration_index.htm

 

Take it with a pinch of salt, but they seem to be close enough.

[Namolis]

As I said before, 14" will require a reworking of the game mechanics to have any business being on a T8. The 38cm of the Bismarck will overmatch 25mm armor, 14" will not. You want a tanky ship with 14" guns? That's the New Mexico. It even has 12 of them rather than 10. Fuso also has 12 and reloads faster in the game than any battleship save the Bismarck, faster than what navweapons says is the RoF on the KGV guns. That still doesn't make it a T8 ship, even with its range and even without having to tank damage. KGV was severly undergunned - being behind ships designed before WW1. This (for a 1940 battleship) weak armament may have been conscious choice, a product of an arms reduction treaty, but the war showed that history doesn't accept excuses.

 

Honestly, even with the extra range upgrade, all captain perks and the +20% RoF module, the secondaries on the Izumo and Yamato are still mostly symbolic. Secondaries in this game are just trash all around. There is a reason for that; you want your shooting skills to matter in the game - you don't want a ship that reduces you to the role of helmsman. Essentially a T8 Mikasa.

 

I think the ways they would have to bend over backwards to make to make it competative at T8 are just too many. I'd prefer if they could release it as a premium, and then they can put it wherever it fits, and not worry too much if it's a proper BB or more of a "German-style" battlecruiser.

[Spellfire40]

As I said before, 14" will require a reworking of the game mechanics to have any business being on a T8. The 38cm of the Bismarck will overmatch 25mm armor, 14" will not. You want a tanky ship with 14" guns? That's the New Mexico. It even has 12 of them rather than 10. Fuso also has 12 and reloads faster in the game than any battleship save the Bismarck, faster than what navweapons says is the RoF on the KGV guns. That still doesn't make it a T8 ship, even with its range and even without having to tank damage. KGV was severly undergunned - being behind ships designed before WW1. This (for a 1940 battleship) weak armament may have been conscious choice, a product of an arms reduction treaty, but the war showed that history doesn't accept excuses.

 

Honestly, even with the extra range upgrade, all captain perks and the +20% RoF module, the secondaries on the Izumo and Yamato are still mostly symbolic. Secondaries in this game are just trash all around. There is a reason for that; you want your shooting skills to matter in the game - you don't want a ship that reduces you to the role of helmsman. Essentially a T8 Mikasa.

 

I think the ways they would have to bend over backwards to make to make it competative at T8 are just too many. I'd prefer if they could release it as a premium, and then they can put it wherever it fits, and not worry too much if it's a proper BB or more of a "German-style" battlecruiser.

 

Warspite and Tirpitz both use 15 inch. Would you say Tirpitz Guns are be same to Warspites? A T8 BB would have 20 km plus range New Mexico has not and Fuso even with acurecy Module is a shotgun at 20km . You dont need to bend over to make it work just some soft stats buffs and its done.

[BuccaneerBill]

KGV should be fine at tier 8. The 15" on the Spite can really mess up T8 BBs if their broadside, so the KGVs 14" will also. With its very thick all or nothing armour, it should be a real pain when angled, either over pens or bounces. Couple this with fast turn time (maybe this will be a British trait?) and fast turret rotation, with long range 5.25" secondaries, it should be an awesome brawler. That's how I'm hoping they make it. Also give its full AA suite so that will be decent too. Oh and Warspite accuracy...going to be one nice ship!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

[RamirezKurita]

The KGV should be fine at T8, even if its guns are relatively poor for its tier. Remember that it has better armour than the T9s, historically they had some very strong AA towards the end of the war and were slightly faster than the NCs. Their relatively low penetration would be the only thing stopping them from being a T9, and even with poor penetration they would still make excellent cruiser hunters and escorts (and if they have good trajectories on their mains guns and a torpedo belt as good as the historical one, good destroyer hunters too). If they also give it 6+km ranges on the secondaries, it should help it become a nice brawler too, which would go well with its high speed and thick armour, but unfortunately it does suffer from having fewer secondaries than most equivalent ships.

[Sonic_157]

 

As I said before, 14" will require a reworking of the game mechanics to have any business being on a T8. The 38cm of the Bismarck will overmatch 25mm armor, 14" will not. You want a tanky ship with 14" guns? That's the New Mexico. It even has 12 of them rather than 10. Fuso also has 12 and reloads faster in the game than any battleship save the Bismarck, faster than what navweapons says is the RoF on the KGV guns. That still doesn't make it a T8 ship, even with its range and even without having to tank damage. KGV was severly undergunned - being behind ships designed before WW1. This (for a 1940 battleship) weak armament may have been conscious choice, a product of an arms reduction treaty, but the war showed that history doesn't accept excuses.

 

 

 

This not exactly true because KGV-class performed well eventually but they were indeed under-gunned.

Having established that, we just have to accept it! The ship belongs to tier 8 in all aspects (except the guns).

So, in-game it will be the most weak of the tier 8s gun-wise. Ok, some ship must be the weakest. They cannot be all equal.

I am sure that when they implement it, it will have many other strengths for balance (armor, RoF etc.) and it will be fun to play.

[Eruantien_Aduialdraug]

Don't forget Spellfire the Nelsons handled like slugs. She may be able to take a lot of artillery punishment but she's torpedo bait at the same time. I'll agree with you both, the KGV were extremely well designed ships and the RN probably produced the best 14" guns in the world. Trouble is KGV's speed and citadel are Tier 9 territory and I don't think the 14" would cut it that high up the tech tree. I'd think they'd make a great Tier 8 Premium though.

Um, that assessment of the Nelsons runs counter to everything I've ever seen. The Nelson class has been often praised for their handling. Placing the Nelson is difficult, at tier 7 it would be the fastest, most heavily armoured, and if they follow the histoical load out, have the best AA too. Whilst the 16 inchers were worse than other nations, it would have an extra gun over the other tier 7s as well. At tier 8, the armour is on par, it's the slowest of the BBs, and whilst it has the same number of guns, they should have below average performance.

 

This not exactly true because KGV-class performed well eventually but they were indeed under-gunned.

Having established that, we just have to accept it! The ship belongs to tier 8 in all aspects (except the guns).

So, in-game it will be the most weak of the tier 8s gun-wise. Ok, some ship must be the weakest. They cannot be all equal.

I am sure that when they implement it, it will have many other strengths for balance (armor, RoF etc.) and it will be fun to play.

The KGV would have the best armour and, baring the Bismark/Tirpitz, the best speed at tier 8, and should have the best AA suite too. I feel that would probably balance it.

 

Tier 6 though, probably going to be the Queen Elizabeth class, given that the Grand Old Lady is the tier 6 premium. What will the fully upgraded hull be though? If it's HMS Valiant by VJ day, then what you've got is the Warspite with the secondary battery and long range AA completely replaced with ten twin 113 mm dual purpose guns - which would give it incredible AA capabilities for a tier 6 BB. Maybe that's going to be the RN BB thing? Good secondary battariess and AA suites balanced with below average main batteries (be that penetration or turret traverse, Nelson & KGV having sub-par penetration for their tier, Warspite having those glacial turrets).

[Sonic_157]

Um, that assessment of the Nelsons runs counter to everything I've ever seen. The Nelson class has been often praised for their handling. Placing the Nelson is difficult, at tier 7 it would be the fastest, most heavily armoured, and if they follow the histoical load out, have the best AA too. Whilst the 16 inchers were worse than other nations, it would have an extra gun over the other tier 7s as well. At tier 8, the armour is on par, it's the slowest of the BBs, and whilst it has the same number of guns, they should have below average performance.

 

 

Actually, the stock Nagato has a top speed of 22.3 knots and with the engine upgrade that goes to 25 knots. So the Nelson-class, with 23 knots, wouldn't be the fastest but quite similar.

Also, the may have one more 16'' gun than the others but with a different (and quite worse) arrangement. I believe the Nelson, with its characteristics, is a solid tier 7 material actually.

 

[Killerbin34]

Nelson fits historically too at Tier 7 I know that factors isn't key as shown by Amagi. The same goes for KGV compared to North Cal 

[Trainspite]

Nelson        Tier 7 Slow Battleship Line.

KGV(1939) Tier 8 Fast Battleship Line.

 

Not a lot else to say. That is it.

[VonBroich]

As the Japanese have the tier 2 premium Mikasa, could i suggest HMS Canopus as a possible tier 2 ship.

 

She might have missed out on Coronel due to her speed, but fired the first shots at the battle of the Falklands and took part in the Dardanelles campaign.

[Getzamatic]

The problem with that is that Mikasa is basically a British pre-dreadnought in every way except the flag she flew.  Putting Canopus into the game wouldn't add anything new and unlike Mikasa, she's long gone to the scrappers...

[RamirezKurita]

I'd rather see one of the old semi-dreadnoughts as a T2 premium, rather than a standard pre-dreadnought. The only problem is that I know WG wouldn't give them good enough secondary batteries to make their 9.2" guns actually useful.

[Eruantien_Aduialdraug]

The problem with that is that Mikasa is basically a British pre-dreadnought in every way except the flag she flew.  Putting Canopus into the game wouldn't add anything new and unlike Mikasa, she's long gone to the scrappers...

I'd rather see one of the old semi-dreadnoughts as a T2 premium, rather than a standard pre-dreadnought. The only problem is that I know WG wouldn't give them good enough secondary batteries to make their 9.2" guns actually useful.

I was actually thinking about this the other day, Russian T2 premium BB is easy, Battleship Potemkin. There's even a film about it. HMS Agamemnon was my thought for RN, the penultimate pre-dreadnought of the RN, and the last one remaining when finally scrapped. Agamemnon was actually completed and commissioned after Dreadnought, but unlike Dreadnought saw notable action during WW1, particularly the Gallipoli campaign, and the Armistice of Mudros was signed onboard whilst Agamemnon was anchored at Lemnos.

 

KM and USN? Well, I'm not an expert on pre-dreadnoughts in any way shape or form, so I wouldn't be able to tell you if there's any that took part in important actions, but primarily from a balance point, USS Vermont and SMS Schleswig-Holstein caught my eye. In terms of interesting history, Vermont had something to do with the Mexican Civil War (not something I've ever looked into in great detail), and Schleswig-Holstein fired the first shots during the Invasion of Poland (which most people point to as being the start of WW2, and so they would have been the first shots of WW2).

[piritskenyer]

I was actually thinking about this the other day, Russian T2 premium BB is easy, Battleship Potemkin. There's even a film about it. HMS Agamemnon was my thought for RN, the penultimate pre-dreadnought of the RN, and the last one remaining when finally scrapped. Agamemnon was actually completed and commissioned after Dreadnought, but unlike Dreadnought saw notable action during WW1, particularly the Gallipoli campaign, and the Armistice of Mudros was signed onboard whilst Agamemnon was anchored at Lemnos.

 

KM and USN? Well, I'm not an expert on pre-dreadnoughts in any way shape or form, so I wouldn't be able to tell you if there's any that took part in important actions, but primarily from a balance point, USS Vermont and SMS Schleswig-Holstein caught my eye. In terms of interesting history, Vermont had something to do with the Mexican Civil War (not something I've ever looked into in great detail, and Schleswig-Holstein fired the first shots during the Invasion of Poland (which most people point to as being the start of WW2, and so they would have been the first shots of WW2).

 

Only I think Potemkin is actually an armoured/protected cruiser, not a BB. 

 

EDIT: check that, she indeed wasa BB. Nvm.

[Synth_FG]

As the Japanese have the tier 2 premium Mikasa, could i suggest HMS Canopus as a possible tier 2 ship.

 

She might have missed out on Coronel due to her speed, but fired the first shots at the battle of the Falklands and took part in the Dardanelles campaign.

 

I have a soft spot for Canopus, 

But think the Lord Nelson class would make a better t2 premium, being the last of the Pre-Dreadnoughts built for the RN 

[piritskenyer]

 

I have a soft spot for Canopus, 

But think the Lord Nelson class would make a better t2 premium, being the last of the Pre-Dreadnoughts built for the RN 

 

> *reads "Nelson" and "T2" in same sentence*

> *chockes on chewing gum*

> *rereads sentence*

 

Oh. That's LORD Nelson class. Okay then.

[Historynerd]

As the Japanese have the tier 2 premium Mikasa, could i suggest HMS Canopus as a possible tier 2 ship.

 

She might have missed out on Coronel due to her speed, but fired the first shots at the battle of the Falklands and took part in the Dardanelles campaign.

 

Hmmm... the Canopus was kind of a generation earlier than Mikasa... I'd look to the Lord Nelson to keep things balanced...

[RamirezKurita]

 

Hmmm... the Canopus was kind of a generation earlier than Mikasa... I'd look to the Lord Nelson to keep things balanced...

 

The Lord Nelsons are from a generation later than the Mikasa though, as the Lord Nelsons were among the semidreadnoughts which include the Japanese Satsumas and Katoris (and arguably the Kawachi, due to it mounting a mixed set of 12" guns) while the Mikasa was basically the last of the presemidreadnoughts (is that even a term?) alongside the British Formidables and Duncans. Unfortunately, the predreadnoughts only really have a single tier to work with as T1 is restricted to the little introductory gunboats and T3 is the beginning of the dreadnoughts, otherwise it would probably be quite possible to populate 3 or so tiers of them.

 

But if they don't severely gimp the secondaries I could see the semidreadnoughts actually working at T3, 9.2" guns can't really be underestimated at low tiers.

 

Looking into it all a bit more, another predreadnought that could work as a T2 premium would be HMS commonwealth, which underwent significant modernisations at the end of WW1 to function as a training ship. At that point she was basically a predreadnought with fire control systems on par with the Revenges, which may translate to having a very long range in game.

[piritskenyer]

 

[...]

 

Looking into it all a bit more, another predreadnought that could work as a T2 premium would be HMS commonwealth, which underwent significant modernisations at the end of WW1 to function as a training ship. At that point she was basically a predreadnought with fire control systems on par with the Revenges, which may translate to having a very long range in game.

 

Maybe she could have an additional captain xp bonus. 

[Historynerd]

 

The Lord Nelsons are from a generation later than the Mikasa though, as the Lord Nelsons were among the semidreadnoughts which include the Japanese Satsumas and Katoris (and arguably the Kawachi, due to it mounting a mixed set of 12" guns) while the Mikasa was basically the last of the presemidreadnoughts (is that even a term?) alongside the British Formidables and Duncans. Unfortunately, the predreadnoughts only really have a single tier to work with as T1 is restricted to the little introductory gunboats and T3 is the beginning of the dreadnoughts, otherwise it would probably be quite possible to populate 3 or so tiers of them.

 

But if they don't severely gimp the secondaries I could see the semidreadnoughts actually working at T3, 9.2" guns can't really be underestimated at low tiers.

 

Looking into it all a bit more, another predreadnought that could work as a T2 premium would be HMS commonwealth, which underwent significant modernisations at the end of WW1 to function as a training ship. At that point she was basically a predreadnought with fire control systems on par with the Revenges, which may translate to having a very long range in game.

 

Yes, in fact the Lord Nelson is a bit too much; the "Wobbly Eight" are a better alternative, I agree.

However, I couldn't find anything about the Commonwealth, and the director and fire control she was fitted with. If it was a modern one (for the end of WWI) then I guess it's a definite possibility for her to have long range and ok accuracy.

 

I went to NavWeaps, and the last models of the 9.2'' gun don't look exactly imposing. Sure, if they hit they are going to leave a mark, but if they were somewhat inaccurate even IRL, their behavior in-game won't be exactly spectacular.

 

On a side niote, I'm not sure wheter "semi-dreadnought" is a justified appellative for these and other classes (including other foreign designs) for which it's used just because they were a step in the right direction (towards the all-big gun concept) and they had strong secondary armament in turrets. They didn't solve the main issue that was arising in terms of long-range gunnery, which was the inability to recognize the salvoes from the different guns. They were just the strongest, more evolved pre-dreadnoughts.

I'd reserve the term for the Satsuma-class and, given the barrel length difference, to the Kawachi-class perhaps, since their armament was planned as uniform but in the end they had to make do with other weapons. But in the first case at least the difference in caliber was reduced to exactly 2 inches, which is less than the British ships with their 9.2-inchers and other foreign ships with 203 mm guns.