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LittleGentleman

Opinions on Tirpitz armor?

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Well I have been in North Carolina and done a few games. don't seem to actually be able to penetrate the Tirpitz armor at range side on; NOT ANGLED. Have had about 30 hits in a row, 0 dmg every single one of them... Whats going on I thought this is a battlecruiser. Then as well at close range I find it extremely hard to citadel, is this super armor ship?? I have more dmg vs Montana and Iowas compared to this...

 

Also somewhat unacceptable that battleships are better off using HE against each other the in-game mechanics are disappointing to say the least.

Edited by LittleGentleman

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Alpha Tester
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Tirpitz armor is good while up close and angled.

 

That said, NoCal should be able to punch through unless it's angled.

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Alpha Tester
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No I am not talking about angled at all that's a different matter.

 

That seems odd, do you have a replay?

 

I personally have gotten into a few "dogfights" with North Carolinas and if they got my side they seemed to have no problems penetrating me.

 

 

 

 

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That seems odd, do you have a replay?

 

I personally have gotten into a few "dogfights" with North Carolinas and if they got my side they seemed to have no problems penetrating me.

 

 

 

 

 

penetration and citadel are two different things. I can pen at close range
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Alpha Tester
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penetration and citadel are two different things. I can pen at close range

 

Sorry, I did mean that they penetrated my citadel.

 

She felt more vulnerable from afar than close up though.

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Beta Tester
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Playing North Carolina versus Tirpitz I also find them very hard to penetrate (didn't manage to citadel one yet) at close range.

Not enough good deck hits at long range to draw conclusion yet.

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Beta Tester
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Why the FU** is Tirpitz a premium ship because of that dumb decicion i will stop playing this game take that developers!

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Why the FU** is Tirpitz a premium ship because of that dumb decicion i will stop playing this game take that developers!

 

Why not? Would it be better if the leadship of her class was a premium?

 

And don't be silly.

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They are hard as nails indeed, yet i did manage one citadel hit at 8,5km earlier today, the same salvo had several pens so the total dmg was 28k, He went down rather fast with next to no dmg to my ship, then again i was angled and he was flat more or less the entire duel <12-7km>. From what little i have seen however is that it is hard to citadel reliably, yet fully possible to penetrate for average dmg. 

Edited by JohnA87

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It's my understanding that the ships of WoWS are modelled with historically accurate armor and layouts. If that's the case the german battleships (Scharnhorst and Bismarck classes at least) will be very tough nuts to crack at close ranges.

 

This is the layout of a Bismarck class battleships:

 

proteccion6.gif

 

That's the cross section roughly amidships. Now the "green" areas are the ones which are considered "citadel" in WoWS: Boiler rooms, engines and magazines. IF you look carefully you'll see that a shell that comes almost straight horizontal to reach those areas will have to penetrate, in order, a 320mm main armored belt, a highly angled 110mm angled "turtledeck", and a vertical 45mm bulkhead

 

That's inordinate heavy protection and ironically the closer you move to the ship, the more invulnerable it is (the more horizontal the incoming shell, the higher the incidence angle upon the 110mm angled deck - this setup will defeat the biggest naval guns when close in).

 

However the horizontal protection (armor against plunging fire) is not good at all against heavy gunfire. Incoming shells at a higher angle will have much less armor to beat in the way towards the vitals, and there are some certain angles where some potential hit areas are really vulnerable. on top of that the end bulkheads (the parts of the armor that enclosed" the armored citadel box fore and aft) weren't very thick, so the Bismarcks were also quite vulnerable to incoming end-on firing from directly in front or behind.

The setup, if properly modelled in WoWS should be impervious to any AP shell in the game when close enough (again, the closer the firing enemy was, the more strong the armor layout was vs the incoming shells), including yamato's 18.1'' guns, but be relatively vulnerable to battleship fire from long range where shells hit at a steep angle. In real life this was one of the worst achilles heels of the Bismarcks as most battleship engagements were expected to happen at long range (particularily so after the first long range blind firing radar sets started appearing). But in this game where plunging fire only really happens in the last 25% of the shells reach, the first 75% of the range shells travelling almost horizontally, it means the layout its very very powerful. And the closer you are, the more resistant it should be.

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I personaly havent played tripitz my self but as many of you could notice there alot of chance to play against him.

Im leveling my Iowa and Izumo atm, spamming them all day (as you could say i love Battleships class) and i might be doing something wrong against Tripitz but entier day i can tell you that ive got 1 citadel hit, yes ONE single citadel hit. And im talking about games with 50-60+ hits , 120-160k dmg done VS 6-8 Tripitzs in enemy team.

LIKE WTF? ?!??!?! full broad side 10km away from me i keep hitting them for 10-12k / salvo but no citadels at all. 

HALP PLS

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Out of 15 or so games against Tirpitz today, in my Amagi, i penetrated it's citadel only ones. What amazes me more it was from the front. But i had no problem scoring 10-18k hits on it without citadels tho.

Edited by Obereon

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I fired two long range salvoes at a Tirpirz in a North Carolina (aircraft launched for extra range) I hit both times the second salvo I got 2 citadel hits and blew her up, they are not infallible, I think the North Carolina is just as good if not better that Tirpitz. In a second encounter I went head to head with one and was getting the better of her, one more salvo and she would have been dead, but I forgot about the Torps, got to close and was killed, I was really annoyed with myself.:child:

 

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However the horizontal protection (armor against plunging fire) is not good at all against heavy gunfire. Incoming shells at a higher angle will have much less armor to beat in the way towards the vitals, and there are some certain angles where some potential hit areas are really vulnerable. on top of that the end bulkheads (the parts of the armor that enclosed" the armored citadel box fore and aft) weren't very thick, so the Bismarcks were also quite vulnerable to incoming end-on firing from directly in front or behind.

 

just to note you cannot hit the transversal bulkheads and the main armored deck without passing through some armor plate/belt/armor grade hull wich fuzes incoming shells and cause damage, decapping and yawing to the fuzed shell, wich, in sum, should have some effect to the penetration/damage capabilities of shells against the citadel area. On the other side the area behind the first layer of armor is subject of massive destruction if hit.

 

given the maximum ranges for guns in the game the Bismarck class should be save against citadel hit almost the complte available range so for gameplay horizontal protection had to be modified

Edited by Thoddyx

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Well from playing as, and shooting against the Tirpitz, the armour is pretty solid. It does seem pretty hard to citadel (although had it happen a few times). Against torps it seems to have little to no protection - every time I've been hit by a single torp it's always done max or almost max damage.

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It seems Tirpitz is especially well armored on Citadels. At least much better then on other Tier 8 Battleships.

Edited by Sotahullu

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Beta Tester
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The Tirpitz isn't a Battlecruiser

cus it's a Battleship doesn't meant to be slow the Iowa for example is pretty fast too

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just to note you cannot hit the transversal bulkheads and the main armored deck without passing through some armor plate/belt/armor grade hull wich fuzes incoming shells and cause damage, decapping and yawing to the fuzed shell, wich, in sum, should have some effect to the penetration/damage capabilities of shells against the citadel area. On the other side the area behind the first layer of armor is subject of massive destruction if hit.

 

On some parts of the layout yes, specially those hitting the upper armored belt.

 

But picture a shell falling with a 45º angle on the 50mm weather deck - that's not enough to prime a battleship fuze, nor is  the 30mm bulkhead it'd hit next , nor is the 20mm standard deck that follows, and only after hitting the 80mm main armored deck the thickness would be enough to prime the shell. And then it'd blow up squarely within the main citadel area. If the shell is capable of penetrating those consecutive layers of armor (and most allied battleships were able to at long range), it will go through them all and explode directly in the vitals.

 

I'll have to grant that the shell must be falling at a pretty steep angle, but if it does and it hits the weather deck instead of the vertical upper belt, then the whole layout is extremely vulnerable.

Edited by RAMJB

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It was discussed in another topic where someone gave a rather complicated explanation that led to quite a heated discussion, to sum it up:

The armor layout on the Tirpitz it's such that guns that aren't Yamato level have little to no hope of penetrating the citadel while going trough the armored belt (close range), the only way to get citadels is to got trough the deck with plunging fire (long range). If you shoot a Tirpitz from up close you are only gonna penetrate the outer armor layers and do damage, but your shots won't reach the citadel.

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I failed to citadel one yesterday in my Yamato at close range , had the open ocean map he was AFK in their cap i moved closer shooting from 8km to 4km before he died no citadel hit but as the Yamato has massiv guns and i hit with most shots i still did 10-15k each salvo. 

 

I have citadeled them tho , as i've written in another thread my first game in my Tirpitz i citadeld another two times in one salvo at 11km and then the same ship again at 9km so its not immune by any means but that belt armor is though as nails. 

 

Kinda remindes me of the Carolina , so many times i've failed to citadel one of those at close range even in my Yamato.. :sceptic:

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On some parts of the layout yes, specially those hitting the upper armored belt.

 

But picture a shell falling with a 45º angle on the 50mm weather deck - that's not enough to prime a battleship fuze, nor is  the 30mm bulkhead it'd hit next , nor is the 20mm standard deck that follows, and only after hitting the 80mm main armored deck the thickness would be enough to prime the shell. And then it'd blow up squarely within the main citadel area. If the shell is capable of penetrating those consecutive layers of armor (and most allied battleships were able to at long range), it will go through them all and explode directly in the vitals.

 

I'll have to grant that the shell must be falling at a pretty steep angle, but if it does and it hits the weather deck instead of the vertical upper belt, then the whole layout is extremely vulnerable.

 

Hello,

 

your example is is not very realistic, for the normal battle ranges at WWII.

Longest range hit ever at WWII was 26000yards.

 

But picture a shell falling with a 45º angle on the 50mm weather deck

 

 

This indicate a battle range of at least above 30000yards for guns with no high muzzle velocity (less 800 m/s), guns with higher muzzle velocity are around 35000yards and above at an angel of fall of 45° (45 obliquity).

 

After British ADM papers the "normal" obliquity for deck penetration is betweenn 55-70 (angle of fall between 20 -35 degree)

 

After British post war test and test shootings against the german spaced array armour deck layout (50mm weather deck and 80mm main armour deck), this primary sources rated the german spaced array armour deck layout equivalent to a 6 inch single plate, between 60-70 obliquity.

 

british
ADM 213-951 German steel Armour piercing ammunition and theory of penetration_1946
DEFE 15-490 High Obliquity Attack of Deck Targets. Part III
High Obliquity Attack of Deck Targets. Part I appears as the primary test report regarding the german horicontal protection registration unknown
SUPP 6-481 Underwater performance of shells (written shortly after High obliquity attack of deck targets ; this report consider the germen horizontal protection as beeing 6 inches single plate (equivalent)
SUPP 22-68 SPACED ARMOUR
SUPP 22-43 SPACED ARMOUR ASSEMBLIES DEPENDING FOR EFFECTIVENESS on THE BREAK UP OF SHOT
DEFE 15-1041 STEEL PROJECTILES FOR THE DEFEAT OF ARMOUR AT LARGE ANGLES OF ATTACK INVESTIGATIONS RELATING TO HEADSHAPE AND PENETRATIVE CAP
DEFE 15-474 The variation in penetrative performance of A.P. projectile of varying head shape
DEFE 15-452 A Fundamental Investigation into the Optimum Hardness for a Capped Armour Piercing Shot
DEFE 15-410 Investigation into suitability of plastic Cements for pentrative Caps
ADM 281-31 THE BALLISTIK PERFORMANCE OF SPACED ARMOUR ASSEMBLIES AND THE EFFECT OF VARYING THE ARRANGEMENT OF PLATE THICKNESSES
ADM 281-37 The ballistic performance of Non-Cemented, Cemented and Face Hardened Deck Armour (200+240 lbssqft) under attack by decapped APC

SUPP 6-910 THE PENETRATION OF ARMOUR PLATE (confined summary of british ballistic knowledg including the pieces above at the end of the 40s

Edited by Don71

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I have penned  the Tirpiz's citadel while sailing the stock Fuso (i had a clear shot at the side).

 

shot_15_08_31_13_25_04_0363.jpg

Edited by Origin47

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