I know they aren't coming but we can dream... Submarines!

[Ruuhkis]

 

There are few topics about adding submarines to this game but this one is mine! On a more serious note I've been thinking this a lot and the biggest problem I've found is that playing with submerged vessels might be really boring! I mean, when your underwater what is the actual game view, how does it look? Auto pilot on map, that's really exiting! If you agree that please move on to next topic, this is written in much deeper tought. I'm not even trying to write exact stats on how should one specific sub work but on more generic way of creating a good and exiting game play with a different twist on it. 

 

Overview and some background of why like this.

 

In this game we already have an example of different vertical levels because we have planes. Planes have only two options, airborne or deck, there is no actual flying altitude differences in the game. Please keep this in mind while reading further. Submarines could have three vertical levels, full surface, attack depth and evading depth. Lets call these "modes" from now on. There is really no need to make this subject more complicated, just 3 settings with 3 different command keys is all we need. In all modes basic manouvering is still done with WASD commands like in all other ships too, no need to change that. Gamevice, only submarines that are in surface mode can cap and are counted as "remaining" player for battle, no hiding under the sea as a last man standing to get a draw! There should ever be only few in game, just like CV's. Also they're not meant to be racing around the map like DD's with stealth mode destroying all while invisible, I did wrote this dream of having them in game to offer us a sneaky, paranoid way of playing with different ship. You all have seen in movies the moment when a submarine captain scouts the surroundings with periscope and then suddenly see a DD aproaching at full speed! That was the image I had in my mind..  

 

 Now lets break these "Modes" in part. 

 

Surface/cruise mode.

 

This is pretty much like the current game play mode, whole ship visible, minimap on screen with all spotted ships in it. On surface submarine can move anywhere where other ships can go as well, all narrow passes with shallow water etc. This mode is also used as making bigger repairs, including ballast dumping but more on that later. In this mode subs are taking damage like all other vessels in the game and are capable of using all deck mounted weaponry and torpedoes may be launched with similar mechanics that in regular ships, SHIFT takes you to gunsight view etc. This is the only mode where the Skipper can use that Lvl 1 "Detected!" skill. Generally this is supposed to be the main moving mode. Moving submarines mode from this to attack mode or evasive mode takes longer time than from Attack mode. In this mode submarine is detected like a destroyer.

 

Attack mode.

 

In this mode in game view changes. There is no point of viewing sub from outside anymore so we need a whole new view, lets call this "Tactical map". In this mode you lose the minimap altogether. Instead you have a tactical map witch shows all passable areas on map so in this map all shallow waters are simply blocked. In this mode your own ability to detect ships visually is greatly redused, let's just say that about a half what you would see from surface. To counter that you have a sonar at your disposal. This is represented in tactical map where all sonar detected ships are shown from greater distance, about double the distance when compared to surface view range. Naturally this would give a sub skipper way too big advantage so there is the trick. All ships, including another submarines,  detected via sonar are just "ships" no friendly or foe indicators at all. Also because of the nature of the crude sonar systems there are no exact locations or even headings where the ship is or where she's heading, instead there is a "detection circle" and the ship is somewhere in it facing some direction, longer the distance the bigger the circle. Since ships movement speed is the biggest source of the sound they make there is a modifier to this detection range. Ships moving with "full ahead" are detected from maximum range. From there each step of dropped speed reduces the spotting distance by 25%. so that in 1/2 speed detection range is halved. Stationary ships are not detected by sonar at all, use that periscope Skipper! In case of multiple ships there may be several overlapping circles. Only way to pinpoint and identify ships seen on tactical map with sonar are either surface to get your minimap back or get in periscope range and make a visual identification. Using periscope for spotting also indicates friends and foes instantly.

 

When moving in this mode navigating will get more difficult so your own location on tactical map will form a slowly growing circle too so that you must surface to pinpoint your location. In this mode if you hit a shore you'll get "flooding". Also in this mode while in periscope view you'll be able to identify the ships located by sonar if you actually can see them. So basically sonar tells you that there's someone but go closer to see who it is... This system of two way spotting gives a sub skipper something to do while underwater, but at same time it makes it possible to surface next to a non-moving enemy cruiser... Use that periscope Skipper! In this mode submarine also uses it's main propulsion system to move around so the speed remains same as in surface/cruise mode but your own speed does interact with that growing location circle you're in, faster you go the bigger the location circle. 

 

Taking damage while in submarine is not fun at all. To represent this there is new indicator, let's call that a "Ballast" like we mentioned before. This is represented just like an extra HP bar. When sub gets a hit that causes "Flooding" it starts to fill this "Ballast" meter until the the flooding is repaired. Big difference is that while underwater you just can't dump that flooded water over the side of the ship so you pump it into a ballast tank. This tank will keep the water in it until it is emptied automatically by surfacing the sub. If your ballast tank gets full you're destroyed since you can't surface anymore. In this mode you can be damaged by all weaponry but chances of getting hit by artillery fire are greatly reduced. 

 

Attacking while in this mode is pretty simple, Using "SHIFT" raise the periscope, calculate or estimate the lead and launch those torpedoes. No deck weapons may be used in this mode. Also making an evasive dive from this mode is faster since you're already underwater but on the other hand getting to surface mode will take more time.

 

Spotting a submarine while it's in attack mode is difficult. Remember that targets speed increased the distance of submarines ability to detect them? Speed affects in here too. If we compare subs detectability to a destroyers it should be pretty similar, but with following modifiers. Ships moving at full speed reduce 80% of their detection range when against Sub in attack mode. In 3/4 speed they loose 60%, 1/2 speed 40% and stationary loose only 20%. Using a hydroacoustic search will count as moving one step slower so 80% becomes 60% and so on. Planes don't suffer any penalties while detecting subs that are in attack mode and also, because of no minimap, sub skipper will detect planes only with periscope view. Remember that "Detected!" Captain skill won't work in this mode!

 

Evasive mode

 

In this mode the sub takes an emergency dive and goes deep. In this mode there is no way of attacking at all and your speed is reduced to few knots since you're now using back-up propulsion system. Like the name indicates, this is the mode what you use while in trouble. In game view you are using the tactical map again to detect and move away from all ships, remember that there are no indicators of hostile ships in this map and that you can't pinpoint your location...

 

To attack submarines when they take evasive mode we need depth charges. If you saw a sub taking a emergency dive to a evasive mode just ran there as fast as you can. Choose depth charges as your weapon and start dropping them. There should be a some kind of indicator when the charge detonates close and damages the sub. Remember that a submarine who is underwater is out of the game when it comes to victory conditions so it's enough to keep her from surfacing to win the game.

 

Crew skills

 

There are few new skills that might fit for sub skippers. At first lvl we could have -10% for ballast dumping time. Second lvl ability to identify and pinpoint all vessels using "Hydroacoustic search". Third lvl advanced sonar crew, they can estimate the heading of all sonar detected ships in tactical map. Fourth lvl expert navigation, reducing the growing speed of your own location circle, making it easier to navigate in tight spaces while in attack mode. 

 

Ducking cover!

 

[Elgerino]

I don't know about everyone else but submarines are the nightmare, not the dream.

[armholeeio]

Nice work but WG is coming along with a big fat depth charge again to sink the sub, monitor, mtb request

[Mister_Greek]

Nice overview but imo,submarines will complicate the game too much.

 

As a BB player,i have to worry about CA,BB and especially Carriers and Destroyers.

 

I cannot have even another enemy hunting for me.

 

You could say that DD and CA can protect me but given tha lack of coordination that exists in random battles,instances of coordination will be rare.

 

Historically,to take out a U-Boot,most of the times,it required coordination of either 2 or more ships or Navy-Naval Airforce coordination.Imagine now if you had a "Rudel" hunting a sole BB....

 

Its just too much to be able to deal with submarines,not to mention that submarines sometimes carried even more deadly torpedoes than DD.

[JeeWeeJ]

Well, as you said: they're not coming, but let's recap why subs aren't a good idea:

If implemented with realistic stats: they'll be dead slow, both on the surface (20-ish knots MAX) as underwater (most subs managed 6-10ish knots, with some exceptions), meaning they're outrun by EVERYONE, even the slowest BBs. They're also weak, given a total lack of armor. Any good hit should sink it, or at the very least make it unable to submerge. An overpenetrating 15" shell might cause a fancy hole in a DD when hit, but it will not kill it. On the other hand ANY kind of holes in the hull of a sub are BAD™, I don't think I have to explain why.  Then there is the submergence factor. If your sub is submerged two possible things may happen:
1. You're so slow you'll never make it to the enemy team as they'll just run away from you

2. IF you somehow manage to get in range, you'll be able to attack your target without it being able to counter you, as realistically speaking, only DDs and some CLs had anti-sub equipment, leaving the rest powerless.

 

So, that's not looking too good! "Well, why not buff the speed then?" you ask? That's what I call the "NavyField" approach, buffing the speeds to 40+ knots in order to make subs viable. But this won't be a "balance" thing, this will actually make the subs just as unbalanced, just in another way. You once again get the problem that only a select few ship classes will be able to counter you while the rest is left at the mercy of a lucky evasive maneuver given that you'll be able to sneak in torps at point blank range. Think that CVs and stealth DDs cause a lot of rage? Subs will be even worse!

 

To cover some other stuff:
Guided torpedoes: Nice idea, but terrily slow (20-ish knots, all but the slowest BBs can outrun them)
Electric torpedoes: Horrible, HORRIBLE for game balance...for the obvious reasons

Historical accuracy: I would challenge you to find an instance of submarines taking part of surface actions like Jutland, Guadalcanal etc and score victories. Hint: you won't find them.

 

Concluding: while I understand that a lot of people like submarines, they have no practical use in high-speed surface combat. They are too weak, too slow and even if one manages to get in range, horribly unbalanced. If you keep the realistic speed the sub captain will most likely get bored out of his mind as everyone runs away from him, and if you buff it to infinity and beyond they become so gamebreaking that it won't even be funny anymore.

[JapLance]

Do you really want submarines?

 

Silent Hunter IV: US, German, British, Russian and Japanese WW2 boats all in one game (with the proper mods, soon also WWI), and more different targets that there will ever be in WoWs.

[Historynerd]

I don't know about everyone else but submarines are the nightmare, not the dream.

 

I agree; so perhaps it might be time to wake up...

[HidesHisFace]

The last thing we need is another class with "world of tanks artillery syndrome" - striking from position that can't be in any way countered. Besides - subs were slow to begin with, slower or just as slow as the slowest ships currently in WoWS (and so far this game remains more or less true to historical speed values) - and I'm talking about surface speed. Submerged they were even more sluggish.

 

So, they would not be fun to play in the first place due to sluggish nature.

The whole core of submarine usage is planning - the whole hunt is all about figuring out the intercept course, something there is no time for in a 20 minute battle.

 

Submerged subs would have very few counters - namely destroyers, planes with depth charges and possibly couple of cruisers. The rest would be effectively defenceless.

 

 

[CZAGIBOY]

Hello everyone. A new test should be closed to try this because it is unknown how it will be able to connect to the game.

[Siagor]

Submarines would disrupt soooo much game balance that it's best not to even mention them... let alone dream.

[armholeeio]

Arcade subs, action station midway/Pacific is the game for you

[Ruuhkis]

@Jeewee

 

Yes, they're weak and they should be. About that speed thing, German XWII did 25 knots submerged, IJN had several submarines capable for more than 23 knots, U.S Gato class was capable of over 20 knots, British K-class did 24 knots so you can get them into a fight, that's why they have that surface option in the first place. About that Balance thing I think that getting few submarines might actually balance game a bit. Now all cruisers focus on AA since hydroacustic search is... Crap? And the way I described subs to work would made them vulnerable for secondary fire, main guns, bombs and torpedos without the sub captain even knowing that he's spotted.  

 

And I did actually look about WW I-II submarine actions before making the post. You can Google names like HMS Pathfinder, HMS Hoque, USS Wasp, USS O'Brien and even USS North carolina got hit by IJN torpedo launched by a submarine. And that happened, what a coinsidence, in Guadalcanal! 

 

About that everyone runs away from him, you don't think that affects the overall game play at all? I mean that could one weak submarine be that scary to force several ships away? Even the planes can't do that and they're even agile compared to the sub. The way I intented them to work is more like a guardian at passes, caps and so on, no like modern day assault subs hunting around.

 

-Back to cover

 

P.S

@HidesHisFace, I think that saying that something is not funny is kinda depending on personal taste. And if you did read the OP only subs in evasive mode aren't affected by guns, to balance that they can't attack either or even cap or even count as alive if no-one else is left at the surface.

[Iron_Gekko]

Submarines would disrupt soooo much game balance that it's best not to even mention them... let alone dream.

 

Depends on how they are implemented, I think most people here are afraid they will be invisible DD's with 15x torp spreads, if there is a max 4x torp spread and a cool down timer for how long they can be underwater I think it could actually be interesting.

[Historynerd]

And I did actually look about WW I-II submarine actions before making the post. You can Google names like HMS Pathfinder, HMS Hoque, USS Wasp, USS O'Brien and even USS North carolina got hit by IJN torpedo launched by a submarine. And that happened, what a coinsidence, in Guadalcanal! 

 

In what instances in which this happened was said submarine or submarines part of the enemy surface fleet, i.e. under the direct tactical command of the enemy admiral, instead of being on a separate chain of command?

[Ruuhkis]

 

In what instances in which this happened was said submarine or submarines part of the enemy surface fleet, i.e. under the direct tactical command of the enemy admiral, instead of being on a separate chain of command?

 

I did miss understood that part, sorry. Submarines were alone, not part of the fleet. Thanks for correcting it. But anyhow, submarines, specially if there ever will be CW map, would offer some tactical flexibility to the battles. 

 

Edit. When was the last time you saw whole team act as one fleet in this game?

[gbgroger]

I for one, share your entusiasm with subs in this game. We already have a strange class, called carrier, which behaves and pushes the rounds in a totally different way than other ship classes so why not subs?

 

They r slow, even on surface, so perhaps only 10% will give them a go but i dont think it will be too a complicated game - it gives dds and cruisers a very new and fullfilling role. Right now, as im making 3-500k credits a round I couldn't care

less if I made a bit less but I want more features.

 

To those who say that bbs will have no defence, well that argument is invalid as bbs already have hard opponents in the form of CV strikes and jap dds. Just keep maneouvering as before!

 

Hedgehog attacks could also be implemented by high tier dds/cruisers, beeing able to sink attacking subs at 2-4km - no need for depthcharges. The thrill of the hunt is what this game is about, subs and pinging sonar will add to that!

[Iron_Gekko]

Well, when the Bismark was running for the french coast line, submarines where actually order forward to make a picket line. Unfortunately they never made it, but it would have been a case where they supported a BB in battle.

[JeeWeeJ]

@Jeewee

 

Yes, they're weak and they should be. About that speed thing, German XWII did 25 knots submerged, IJN had several submarines capable for more than 23 knots, U.S Gato class was capable of over 20 knots, British K-class did 24 knots so you can get them into a fight, that's why they have that surface option in the first place. About that Balance thing I think that getting few submarines might actually balance game a bit. Now all cruisers focus on AA since hydroacustic search is... Crap? And the way I described subs to work would made them vulnerable for secondary fire, main guns, bombs and torpedos without the sub captain even knowing that he's spotted.  

 

And I did actually look about WW I-II submarine actions before making the post. You can Google names like HMS Pathfinder, HMS Hoque, USS Wasp, USS O'Brien and even USS North carolina got hit by IJN torpedo launched by a submarine. And that happened, what a coinsidence, in Guadalcanal! 

 

About that everyone runs away from him, you don't think that affects the overall game play at all? I mean that could one weak submarine be that scary to force several ships away? Even the planes can't do that and they're even agile compared to the sub. The way I intented them to work is more like a guardian at passes, caps and so on, no like modern day assault subs hunting around.

 

The speeds you mention are all surface speeds, which I already acknowledged to be around the 20-ish knots. Yes, there were some exceptions like the Walther boats, the Type XXI and some others, but the most of those fast boats are post-war redesigns like the converted boats of the USN GUPPY project.

And, as you already discovered, I was talking about subs working in concert with the surface fleet during surface combat. This means ships running at speeds of 30+ knots, NOT the economical cruising speed they had outside of battle...which was when most warships were torpedoed (or when at harbor). Subs are a strategic weapon, which have their actions planned well in advance (like intercepting a convoy), not a tactical one like other warships can be.

 

And I think I misworded "running away", I meant that tier-for-tier ANY ship will outrun a sub, be it surfaced or submerged. If a ship sees a sub coming in, all he has to do is change course and the sub will never catch up. And if the sub decides to stay on the surface, it'll take just one 6" shell to ruin the day of this unarmored cocoon.

 

Anyway, this has been pretty much discussed to hell and back, and back to hell again. So I'd suggest you use the search function for a nice evening's read of all the rants and discussions on this topic.

[Historynerd]

 

I did miss understood that part, sorry. Submarines were alone, not part of the fleet. Thanks for correcting it. But anyhow, submarines, specially if there ever will be CW map, would offer some tactical flexibility to the battles. 

 

Edit. When was the last time you saw whole team act as one fleet in this game?

 

How can we talk about tactical flexibility, when submarines were never part of a unified tactical command together with aircraft carriers, battleships, cruisers and destroyers? Their own characteristics and performances made them unsuitable for service together (and I mean in a tactically coordinated way) with a battle fleet.

 

The same characteristics and performances do not support having them in game, no matter if teamwork by players still has a long way to go.

[T0byJug]

History of Sub/surface fleet battles extensively discussed  here suggest all but Historynerd (He and i were  twe of main posters) go take a look

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/27722-adding-subs-is-possible-within-current-gameplay-framework/

 

 

for any one interested some suggested reading

The German Invasion of Norway: April 1940

The Battle for Norway April - June 1940

Jutland, 1916: Death in the Grey Wastes

 

Robert Ballard's "Bismarck": Germany's Greatest Battleship Surrenders Her Secrets (any of the Robert Ballard Books shipwreck books are good)

 

 

[Ruuhkis]

History of Sub/surface fleet battles extensively discussed  here suggest all but Historynerd (He and i were  twe of main posters) go take a look

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/27722-adding-subs-is-possible-within-current-gameplay-framework/

 

 

I've read that topic with great intrest, thanks anyways! One thing that I don't get is why to try mix historical accuracy in arcadeish game. This is not against you at all by any means but WG is known for bending the historical truths to make a joyable gameplay in WoT so why so agressively against it in here?

[Historynerd]

 

I've read that topic with great intrest, thanks anyways! One thing that I don't get is why to try mix historical accuracy in arcadeish game. This is not against you at all by any means but WG is known for bending the historical truths to make a joyable gameplay in WoT so why so agressively against it in here?

 

Well, perhaps because one needs to draw a line somewhere.

 

And also because we demonstrated that submarines as an organic part of a surface battle fleet were never a thing.

[Ruuhkis]

And also because we demonstrated that submarines as an organic part of a surface battle fleet were never a thing.

 Fair enough, I'll leave this here then. As a sidenote I would happily take few beers with you and talk about naval warfare but this is not the place for it. Cheers!

[Broevaharo]

If you ever played Silent Hunter you would know that subs wouldn't work in this game, I've had numerous occasions in that game where I was in an almost perfect ambush position to strike on an enemy fleet with CV's in it only to find out that they made a last minute turn and to see them sail away happily ever after without even the faintest chance to catch up with them again.

The same would happen in this game, to get into a good strike position you would have to run full speed on the surface, goodluck with that with all the spotter planes in this game, they are already a nightmare for DD's so I can only imagine how frustrating they would be for a sub because they would force him to submerge and bye bye to all your speed and the chance to get into a good position.

But lets be optimistic and say that you are in a perfect position with a perfect firing solution and you fire your torps, they look perfect and allover sudden the CL, DD or BB makes a turn and you hit with only 1 or 2 torps, for a DD it would be game over and if you get lucky it's also game over for the CL but it won't be for the BB and you will see yourself spending 5 minutes (or more) to reposition again.

 

I think the average DD captain has a hit percentage of around 10% with his torps and that's in a ship that is fast enough to sail allover the map and engage in several places, now imagine that same hit percentage on a ship that is slower than any other ship in the game and I can already predict the amount of whining from future sub captains.

 

Looking form the perspective of the targetted ships, they have no real defence (except from being lucky to turn in the right time and right place) which looks to me to be too much of a luck factor instead of a skill factor which is, imho ofcourse, not good for the game and given all the other topics about Torps are OP, DD's are OP and CV's are OP I'm not really in the mood to wait for another class to appear in that list.

[IamTroublemaker]

No, just no...

 

Everyone with a little bit of common sense would realize submarines wouldnt fit into the current game, plus the gameplay would be really boring and nobody would play them

 

 

Bye