Secondary Armament

[warsinger2]

Battleships no matter if WW1 or WW2 had secondary batteries sometimes very numerous secondary batteries, those guns running from caliber 100+ mm to 155mm were used for 1 purpose and 1 purpose only during ww1 and the interim phase and for 2 purposes now renamed dual purpose guns for those countries smart enough to realize to use 1 gun for both purposes. Their first and foremost use was vs torpedo boats and destroyers, during WW2 the AAA function was added but secondary guns for battleships had primarily 1 purpose of life, engage destroyers and torpedo boats.

 

Now we have them in game and they do shot, IF the enemy is closer than 4 (5) km this is absolutely [edited] and the reason why especially the early battleships suck so much. Secondary batteries must engage starting @ 10km, it is high folly to give torpedoes more range advantage than the secondary batteries. Now how to balance this without making BB with a high number of fast firing secondaries not op, oh wait we already have the answer infinite reloading torpedo launchers, right now its is very comfortable for cruisers and DDs to sit at 6 km plus throwing torps like no tomorrow while the BB secondary guns sit idly by.

First you can give them poor accuracy at 7,5 -10km gradually getting better but those guns had 15-20km range real life, this is a game as we all know so some balance must be applied but having torps being thrown at 8,9,10 (20) km and secondaries only firing at 4 (5) km that is a huge mismatch.   

 

We get super fast infinite torpedo reloads, fine, then at least make the secondary batteries fire at 10km- 15km (depending on ship tier, obviously 15km only for T X) ...... even with bad accuracy  but at least make them do something.

 

P.S I used the search function but did not stumble across any recent topic that covered this so I brazenly made a new one since I think this has to be addressed.  

[DtXpwnz]

 

P.S I used the search function but did not stumble across any recent topic that coward this so I brazenly made a new one since I think this has to be addressed.  

This saved you from trollish answer

 

This was discussed several times during CBT/OBT, I kinda agree that lowtier BBs could use slight range boost of secondary weapons (to lets say 4km), but in general 5km and higher range of secondaries on these lowtier BBs would be waaaaay too OP. Cruiser 6km away from a BB? He should be dead, even though main battery can be inaccurate at times, 6km is one-shot range for cruisers. Keep in mind that Minekaze - considered the best DD ingame - is staying around 6,1 - 7km away from you, that would mean that he would be under fire every time he would try to actually play the game... And USN lowtier DDs have torp ranges of +- 4,5km... More effective secondary weapons were present in CBT and made DDs unplayable.

 

Btw hightier BBs (Izumo and Yamato) with fully upgraded secondary weapons have range of 10km, Nagato has little over 7km.

[_x_Acheron_x_]

I always chuckle when an enemy ship is say, 5km away, and my secondary batteries fire a shot into the water about 500m in front of me.

[warsinger2]

This saved you from trollish answer

 

This was discussed several times during CBT/OBT, I kinda agree that lowtier BBs could use slight range boost of secondary weapons (to lets say 4km), but in general 5km and higher range of secondaries on these lowtier BBs would be waaaaay too OP. Cruiser 6km away from a BB? He should be dead, even though main battery can be inaccurate at times, 6km is one-shot range for cruisers. Keep in mind that Minekaze - considered the best DD ingame - is staying around 6,1 - 7km away from you, that would mean that he would be under fire every time he would try to actually play the game... And USN lowtier DDs have torp ranges of +- 4,5km... More effective secondary weapons were present in CBT and made DDs unplayable.

 

Btw hightier BBs (Izumo and Yamato) with fully upgraded secondary weapons have range of 10km, Nagato has little over 7km.

 

A torpedo armed cruiser that  knows what he is doing will sink the BB, a gun cruiser, will sink the bb, the bb @ 6-7 km lower level will hope for a citadel hit and will mostly score 1000p hits if any, in the mean time both gun cruisers and torpedo cruisers have sunk the bb and so did the dd since unless you land a very lucky citadel hit those cruisers and DD make a mockery out of your hp advantage.  

 

There is a reason why BB had secondary guns and we also do not want to go the navyfield way and make heavy guns 1 shot everything smaller. So a mid term solution must be found and a rule of thumb should always be torp range @ tier firing range of secondaries, albeit with bad accuracy at longer ranges.

 

I know this is a game and there should be balance and stuff but if I talk about a 30.000t ship with 50 (100+) guns vs a destroyer with 4 guns and historically 4-6 torps with no reloads you have to find a better middle ground and since torpedoes are keeping their super fast infinite reloads, secondaries need a boost!  Another solution would be to boost reload speed on primaries and I am sure nobody wants that.  

[Siagor]

AFAIK, they were much more potent in some stage of CBT, and they nerferd them cause DD's were slaughtered.

[chazwozza]

Warspite with the right mods can hit 7km

[warsinger2]

AFAIK, they were much more potent in some stage of CBT, and they nerferd them cause DD's were slaughtered.

 

Well right now a BB with an allegedly 14x 140mm secondary battery, that is 7 guns per side is infinitely worse than a Kuma with the same armament, while AI controlled secondaries should never reach player level hits the range of secondaries and torpedoes should always be the same or similar.  

[warsinger2]

Warspite with the right mods can hit 7km

Any torp in game can be launched further away.... If you captain a ship with 140mm guns and you can shoot 11 km why can´t the same guns on a much more stable gun platform not shot at at least the same range? I am not talking about super accurate fire, depending on tier this should be obviously scaled.

[Fresh_Pickle]

There are problems with secondaries, the op is right about that. To be completely fair though, every ship should have it's secondaries improved in terms of their accuracy, if not their potency. It would make playing cruisers and DDs much more exciting in my opinion and playing BBs would be much more spectacular. Just because secondaries are up to 155mm in some cases, doesn't mean that you should have a two mogamis strapped either side of your BB, but some improvements in accuracy are really needed.

 

Also, OT, DDs need a massive AA boost. And a HP boost.

[N00b32]

Any torp in game can be launched further away....

 

No. Well, yes, launched yes, but many torpedos will never reach their target. You should learn the max range of your torpedos. 

[TheJezna]

 

A torpedo armed cruiser that  knows what he is doing will sink the BB, a gun cruiser, will sink the bb, the bb @ 6-7 km lower level will hope for a citadel hit and will mostly score 1000p hits if any, in the mean time both gun cruisers and torpedo cruisers have sunk the bb and so did the dd since unless you land a very lucky citadel hit those cruisers and DD make a mockery out of your hp advantage.  

 

There is a reason why BB had secondary guns and we also do not want to go the navyfield way and make heavy guns 1 shot everything smaller. So a mid term solution must be found and a rule of thumb should always be torp range @ tier firing range of secondaries, albeit with bad accuracy at longer ranges.

 

I know this is a game and there should be balance and stuff but if I talk about a 30.000t ship with 50 (100+) guns vs a destroyer with 4 guns and historically 4-6 torps with no reloads you have to find a better middle ground and since torpedoes are keeping their super fast infinite reloads, secondaries need a boost!  Another solution would be to boost reload speed on primaries and I am sure nobody wants that.  

 

No. Destroyers are supposed to kill battleships one on one. What weapons the respective ships did or didn't have in reality has no bearing on how the game should be balanced, you have to make a good case gameplay wise for this change. And since DD's are highy underpowered right now while BB's are one of the powerclasses. It may not feel that way at low tiers and WG even said low tiers BB's are supposed to be a bit weak, that's not representative of the class as a whole tough. 

[warsinger2]

 

No. Destroyers are supposed to kill battleships one on one. What weapons the respective ships did or didn't have in reality has no bearing on how the game should be balanced, you have to make a good case gameplay wise for this change. And since DD's are highy underpowered right now while BB's are one of the powerclasses. It may not feel that way at low tiers and WG even said low tiers BB's are supposed to be a bit weak, that's not representative of the class as a whole tough. 

 

Oh dear , the certain crowd got the memo..... 

[TheJezna]

Any torp in game can be launched further away.... If you captain a ship with 140mm guns and you can shoot 11 km why can´t the same guns on a much more stable gun platform not shot at at least the same range? I am not talking about super accurate fire, depending on tier this should be obviously scaled.

 

No, they can't US DD torps have a range of 4,5-5,5 km up until tier 7 where they bump to 6,4 and have to get close enough to get spotted to fire up untill tier 8, reliably so at tier 9. US CL's with torps (Phoenix, Omaha, Atlanta) have 5,5 km range. And as it seems you are basing your argument on realism, real torpedoes had considerably longer range than the ones in game. To your other question, why you can't shoot 11 km, because of game balance is the answer. If you had your way, DD's would have to be buffed immensly, in addition to the buffs they already need in the current game state.

[Vaderan]

Sorry, TheJezna, but you are just wrong. DDs are neither inferior nor up. They just lost some of their dominance from earlier times with the changes to the smoke system. To be honest, there is no ship like my DDs, where i feel capable of contributing to the team. Able to quickly react on changes, dictating the terms of engagement. I laugh at these poor BBs, when they try to defend themselves against me. And i pity them, because i know the situation the other way around.

BBs right now are the most unbalanced class in the game. Unbalanced, because there has been so much tinkering around with them since closed alpha test, that maybe even the developers don´t know, what to do with them.

DDs and CAs are just plain straight. You got guns, you got torps. The guns hit basically, where they are aimed at, and the torpedos go, where they are sent. If they hit anything, they do damage on a reliable base.

BBs got their damage potential. They got their guns. They got their armor and hp. They got their secondary armament. They got (some) AAA. And with 0.4.1., they will receive some maneuverability. But on most BBs, these components fail to work together. The big guns reload slower than any other guns in the game. BBs rely on these guns. But, instead of receiving good accuracy, to make these few shots count you got every 30 seconds, BBs receive the worst dispersion and the worst RNG (because balance). This is balance wise required, since they would overkill any CA and DD. So, no reliable hits allowed on these, just lucky shots. It wouldn´t be so bad, if the secondaries would compensate for it. But they lack range and accuracy, so no compensation again.

BBs have the range for long distance engagements, but they lack the accuracy to make use of it. They lack the turret traverse to counter on short range aswell (so the expectet 3km accuracy buff will be "very" usefull). At medium range, they can hit something, but RNG does decide for miss, penetration or overpenetration.

 

Basically, all whats left of the BBs right now, is the myth, with a cent of potential. Basically the hope for a good hit. But, basically, there is no class left that fears a BB. DDs laugh at them, CAs torch them at will (with a slight risk of receiving nasty citadells, though), and CVs take most of them as primary victim. Enemy BBs, well... they participate in the same lottery.

BBs are considered to counter CAs, as DDs are considered to counter BBs. Due to the RNG factor of the main batteries, and the insufficient secondary batteries, there is not much left of this counter. For Bbs, it´s all reduced to luck.

No fun to play, that class.

BBs require a buff to their secondaries. Tier 3-5 should be some 4,5-5 km range, tiers 6-7 some 6 km, from tier 8 to 10 7 km base range. This would be a solid base to start from, with the possibility to the player to improve on that base.

However, with their low hit ration, secondary batteries could have up to 20km range, and they still would pose a thread to anything.

 

Btw, i´d say, all secondary guns should be buffed. Everything up from 76mm. Including DDs and CAs.

[Fresh_Pickle]

 

No. Destroyers are supposed to kill battleships one on one.

 

Bwahahaha! Funniest post this week. +1 internets to you!

[Fresh_Pickle]

Sorry, TheJezna, but you are just wrong. DDs are neither inferior nor up. They just lost some of their dominance from earlier times with the changes to the smoke system. To be honest, there is no ship like my DDs, where i feel capable of contributing to the team. Able to quickly react on changes, dictating the terms of engagement. I laugh at these poor BBs, when they try to defend themselves against me. And i pity them, because i know the situation the other way around.

BBs right now are the most unbalanced class in the game. Unbalanced, because there has been so much tinkering around with them since closed alpha test, that maybe even the developers don´t know, what to do with them.

DDs and CAs are just plain straight. You got guns, you got torps. The guns hit basically, where they are aimed at, and the torpedos go, where they are sent. If they hit anything, they do damage on a reliable base.

BBs got their damage potential. They got their guns. They got their armor and hp. They got their secondary armament. They got (some) AAA. And with 0.4.1., they will receive some maneuverability. But on most BBs, these components fail to work together. The big guns reload slower than any other guns in the game. BBs rely on these guns. But, instead of receiving good accuracy, to make these few shots count you got every 30 seconds, BBs receive the worst dispersion and the worst RNG (because balance). This is balance wise required, since they would overkill any CA and DD. So, no reliable hits allowed on these, just lucky shots. It wouldn´t be so bad, if the secondaries would compensate for it. But they lack range and accuracy, so no compensation again.

BBs have the range for long distance engagements, but they lack the accuracy to make use of it. They lack the turret traverse to counter on short range aswell (so the expectet 3km accuracy buff will be "very" usefull). At medium range, they can hit something, but RNG does decide for miss, penetration or overpenetration.

 

Basically, all whats left of the BBs right now, is the myth, with a cent of potential. Basically the hope for a good hit. But, basically, there is no class left that fears a BB. DDs laugh at them, CAs torch them at will (with a slight risk of receiving nasty citadells, though), and CVs take most of them as primary victim. Enemy BBs, well... they participate in the same lottery.

BBs are considered to counter CAs, as DDs are considered to counter BBs. Due to the RNG factor of the main batteries, and the insufficient secondary batteries, there is not much left of this counter. For Bbs, it´s all reduced to luck.

No fun to play, that class.

BBs require a buff to their secondaries. Tier 3-5 should be some 4,5-5 km range, tiers 6-7 some 6 km, from tier 8 to 10 7 km base range. This would be a solid base to start from, with the possibility to the player to improve on that base.

However, with their low hit ration, secondary batteries could have up to 20km range, and they still would pose a thread to anything.

 

Btw, i´d say, all secondary guns should be buffed. Everything up from 76mm. Including DDs and CAs.

 

Basically you have hit the nail on the head. Buffing the range of secondaries is irrelevant, they could hit the length of the map because they will miss by the same distance. It should be a priority to sort these out to make them do something useful instead of existing for the comedy value.

 

I totally agree that secondaries should be buffed for all ship classes.

 

bolded/underlined the key argument.

[ApexTitan]

To me they see fine, they punish DD's if they get too close but don't ruin your chances of getting your torps off, if I had less health they would have successfully defended him

This video shows my point (action starts at 0:22):

 

[beercrazy]

had a game yesterday with my new mexico and it fired 15 shots of secondry at a cruiser and all missed

range may be a problem but I think the worst thing is the RNG aiming of them

[Battledragon]

I'm kind of hoping the the 3km battleship accuracy buff will include secondaries, because the main problem for me is not that they have limited range (low tier dds tend to come into that range anyway a lot) its that even when they are in range the secondaries can't hit another BATTLESHIP from 3-4km most of the time.  There are only 2 battleships I have ever played that seem to have worthwhile secondaries.  These are HMS Warspite, and IJN Nagato.  I've killed several destroyers purely by secondary fire on Warspite before now while dodging torpedoes.  Warspite's exceptionally good turning circle helps out a lot because most DDs do not expect a battleship to be able to manover like that.

[RAMJB]

I just don't understand why don't we have the option to switch to secondaries and manually aim them in BBs. Would make their unrealistically short range justified for balance purposes and help covering for the long times between missing shots due to RNG with the main battery firing XD.

[Iron_Gekko]

Battleships no matter if WW1 or WW2 had secondary batteries sometimes very numerous secondary batteries, those guns running from caliber 100+ mm to 155mm were used for 1 purpose and 1 purpose only during ww1 and the interim phase and for 2 purposes now renamed dual purpose guns for those countries smart enough to realize to use 1 gun for both purposes. Their first and foremost use was vs torpedo boats and destroyers, during WW2 the AAA function was added but secondary guns for battleships had primarily 1 purpose of life, engage destroyers and torpedo boats.

 

Now we have them in game and they do shot, IF the enemy is closer than 4 (5) km this is absolutely [edited] and the reason why especially the early battleships suck so much. Secondary batteries must engage starting @ 10km, it is high folly to give torpedoes more range advantage than the secondary batteries. Now how to balance this without making BB with a high number of fast firing secondaries not op, oh wait we already have the answer infinite reloading torpedo launchers, right now its is very comfortable for cruisers and DDs to sit at 6 km plus throwing torps like no tomorrow while the BB secondary guns sit idly by.

First you can give them poor accuracy at 7,5 -10km gradually getting better but those guns had 15-20km range real life, this is a game as we all know so some balance must be applied but having torps being thrown at 8,9,10 (20) km and secondaries only firing at 4 (5) km that is a huge mismatch.   

 

We get super fast infinite torpedo reloads, fine, then at least make the secondary batteries fire at 10km- 15km (depending on ship tier, obviously 15km only for T X) ...... even with bad accuracy  but at least make them do something.

 

P.S I used the search function but did not stumble across any recent topic that covered this so I brazenly made a new one since I think this has to be addressed.  

 

Well... higher tier ships with the right flag, captain skills and modules can start firing at just under 10km, on some of these big ships the primaries are so slow people often just steam into range with their secondaries and dish out hurt.

[DaWyrm]

The secondaries don't need that much of a boost. Just little tug. It would be nice if low-tier BB had a range of about 5km while the higher ones crawl up to 6-7km.

What really needs fixing is the horrible accuracy of them. I have better hit-ratio with my main battery against moving targets at 20+km than my secondaries have against stationary targets at 2km...

[ilhilh]

I would like to see the range of them increased.  Crap accuracy could compensate to keep them from being OP but it is ridiculous when you have all of these secondary guns silent that are perfectly capable of lobbing a shell 10km just sitting there until very occasionally someone is stupid enough to get in 'range' of them.

[Nagine]

If secondaries are made more accurate + longer range, how would you expect USN DDs to be played? Sure, you could still use islands, but if your salvo wouldn't kill BB, you would be automatically dead. And if we are talking about real life effectiveness of secondaries, don't forget to make real life maneuverability (since it was the main reason why BBs had such a big number of secondaries).

[kamuka]

If a DD or Cruiser is within secondary range you just one or two hit it with your primaries. BBs have absolutely no problems dealing with DDs and Cruisers at short range.

 

Stop being bad and derping headfirst into a wall of torps.