HE - constructive feedback

[devorrio]

Hello,

 

Love this game, I am very attracted to it. I am mesmerized when I see a battleship and I've discovered a passion with this game. Battleships!

So.... you wanna be an E-SPORTS ? well, dear WoW, you need to do something about those Highly Explosive shells; it offers toxic gameplay with little room to maneuver around it. The only salvation comes once at 90 sec or so and it's tied to other "debuffs" in the game.

 

Battleships should be destroyed by AP shells in my opinion, not fire. AP offers a healthy gameplay; you can cover your weak points by moving in a line with the enemy and at a 90 degree angle when firing, dance with your battleship, offering your most armored parts to your enemies when reloading and unleash hell when ready to fire moving in an open position. 

This can give birth to many strategies and counters, firing a single shell to trick them; counting 30 sec from their last salve and so on.

 

HE shells gameplay:

-> brain off, keep shooting, doesn't matter where they land, doesn't matter how they move, doesn't matter if they dodge, doesn't matter if its armored, they will always always catch "fire"

-> 1x fire = 5k dmg; 3x fire = 15k dmg (at least on my lvl). Doesn't matter if my BB is with sides, behind, front at them, i will always, always catch on fire.

-> my sister will use HE shells

-> my grandmother will use HE shells

-> BB's are using HE shells

 

Just my opinion, do as you may.

Thanks.

[Userext]

you can deal with HEs and fires but its not a child's toy. You have to use your brain and plan your moves. As WG stated before "Battleships are not for everyone" . I dont like big ships with really bad mobility. I play destroyers because i like being able to maneuver and not plan 5 moves ahead like a chess player. I can plan 2 moves ahead but planning 5 moves ahead? Nope not for me.

[Mister_Greek]

Believe it or not,a great portion of Battleships were ultimately destroyed by fires in real life.The wooden decks were "Zippos" waiting to be set afire.

 

Now regarding the HE spam in Wows,it acts as a deterent.I will think twice before going against 2 CA.Before the HE spam,i could roflstomp anyone in the Battleships,now i will think twice before i get too close.

 

The things you described with the AP shell "choreography" also exist in the HE spam.Wiggle to avoid incoming fire and always learn to use the repair and the "HP regenerate" ability at the right time.Fire damage is considered low damage which is repaired up to 90-95%.

 

A Yamato can repair almost half his health with a single "Regenerate Ability"

 

I agree though that HE spam right now is a bit off and needs some tone down,gotta wait for the next patch.....

[MrDane]

Just to make the stupidity of HE damage clear. 18 fires out of 70 hits and a total of 42.000 damage from the fires, good luck repairing your way out of that one.

 

[devorrio]

I don't want to Offend you Userext or anything. But your just regurgitating what info you read. I am not saying its not true, I am just hinting that you din't understand what I've wrote. Thanks 

[Userext]

Just to make the stupidity of HE damage clear. 18 fires out of 70 hits and a total of 42.000 damage from the fires, good luck repairing your way out of that one.

 

oh my look a game out of 1000 says the OP is right! It must be true! I can find results of BBs having over 250k damage even after CBT would that make them OP? No its not logical to prove something using dummies over it.

 

Edit: Dummies as in way for people who received those damages when they could have evaded it

[inAbag]

Believe it or not,a great portion of Battleships were ultimately destroyed by fires in real life.The wooden decks were "Zippos" waiting to be set afire.

 

#RememberTsushima tovarisch)))))

 

This is so utterly not true that a great portion of battleships were destroyed by fires. Ship to ship combat, especially capital ship versus capital ship was a rare occurance for battleships in WWII. They were pretty much only used for shore bombardment by the USN or being horded for the "final assault" by the IJN. The fires that DID cause massive damage to battleships was from DIVE BOMBERS and not from some retarded cruiser spamming HE at it. Wargaming just seems to think that because their precious Soviet fleet got utterly wrecked in Tsushima that was because the Japanese used HE and totally not because the Soviet fleet consisted of ill trained crews, poor leadership and outdated ships. No, it was dirty imperial HE shells that destroyed glorious socialist fleet and that's how they implemented it in the game.

[typhaon]

So basically you suggest that only other BBs and torps should be able to seriously hurt BBs?

Why not take out those pesky cruisers out of the game alltogether?

 

I don't see HE as such a big problem:

1. Fires are not that bad... i usually let it burn and heal the damage afterwards.

2. HE shells can only damage superstructure which hasn't been destroyed yet... but since the repair ability can heal most of the HE damage but doesn't restore the superstructure, you can get virtually invulnerable to HE in those places.

3. If you are such a big fan of AP, why don't you take AP as a BB and simply blow those cruisers out of the water. Citadel-hits are easy on most CLs and CAs of you shoot at the right angle.

4. Most BBs have better range than cruisers, which can be further increased with spotting planes. What cannot reach you, cannot harm you... simple thing.

[devorrio]

Wow, the defense and willing to misunderstand and miss read on this forum. Let me sumarise for you Typhaon, in case I wasn't clear enough in the first post.

Just like the description says:

AP vs heavy armored targets 

HE vs lower armored targets

 

I hope its clear enough what I am suggesting.

 

Thanks. 

P.S in case you don't know, now its like HE -> all targets

[RAIDBOSS]

I have limited experience playing BBs as I only have New Mexico and Trololorado but I think HE is more or less fine. Dealing with 1 CA alone is usually easy unless he's extremely good. Dealing with 2 CA's alone isn't recommended but if you must, you need to stay at range. If you rush into 2 CA's alone you're going to burn to death there isn't anything you can do about it. If you're being rekt by more than 2 I don't see why it's unreasonable that you're getting raped.

 

What people also don't seem to get is that you need to be extremely strategic playing a BB. You need to be patient and smart about your shots and even smarter about your movements. Overextend a slight bit and you're stuck in a spot where you're basically done. Since your gun accuray is so bad and the reload time is horrid, your aim needs to be on point too. Yes I've had perfect shots fail often but I'm reliably trashing people that give me a good angle. Not every shot is gonna be a devastating blow, but they often hurt a lot.

[OVanBruce]

Guys if this game aspires to become a team dependant game there must be different variables setup for all classes so they can be competitive against each other while still mantaining some roles that favor one class against the other. True, BBs can be burned down but only after a very long time if faced by a single CA or a short time if faced by 3 CAs. Even so, a good BB player WILL make those CAs suffer before dying by the fires if he can properly control the damage he recieves by using all the tools available to him (heealth potion, instant repair, manouvering and its large health pool) and its big guns who can one shot a cruiser in a single salvo.

 

It's true that BBs on the lower tiers are kinda crappy but after you reach beauties like the Kongo or The New Mexico you start feeling the power of the BBs. I'm not even a BB player but lately I've been playing with the Nagato on the test server and oh God the citadels, even 3 citadels on a single salvo.

 

So don't panic, aim well, use your resources and you should overcome most CAs and CLs in a one on one.

[Userext]

Wow, the defense and willing to misunderstand and miss read on this forum. Let me sumarise for you Typhaon, in case I wasn't clear enough in the first post.

Just like the description says:

AP vs heavy armored targets 

HE vs lower armored targets

 

I hope its clear enough what I am suggesting.

 

Thanks. 

P.S in case you don't know, now its like HE -> all targets

 

Battleship dont have 200mm superstructure. HE was never underestimated in navy. 

[Isitari]

Remember guys Fire chance decreases with tier where by Tier 10 AFAIK the chance is ~-50% Fire. I imagine the Cleveland does so well with fire is because it can shoot lots of low tier targets and has lots of rapid firing guns.

[Mister_Greek]

 

#RememberTsushima tovarisch)))))

 

This is so utterly not true that a great portion of battleships were destroyed by fires. Ship to ship combat, especially capital ship versus capital ship was a rare occurance for battleships in WWII. They were pretty much only used for shore bombardment by the USN or being horded for the "final assault" by the IJN. The fires that DID cause massive damage to battleships was from DIVE BOMBERS and not from some retarded cruiser spamming HE at it. Wargaming just seems to think that because their precious Soviet fleet got utterly wrecked in Tsushima that was because the Japanese used HE and totally not because the Soviet fleet consisted of ill trained crews, poor leadership and outdated ships. No, it was dirty imperial HE shells that destroyed glorious socialist fleet and that's how they implemented it in the game.

 

Notice that i did refer to Fire Damage in general,not exclusively on HE spam.HE shells were fired only against shore targets as you already said.

 

True story....

[MrDane]

 

oh my look a game out of 1000 says the OP is right! It must be true! I can find results of BBs having over 250k damage even after CBT would that make them OP? No its not logical to prove something using dummies over it.

 

Edit: Dummies as in way for people who received those damages when they could have evaded it

 

So your solution is to run away and hide? Not sure I understand you? I was in  a New York, if they wanted to be able to shoot at me, they had to come within my range. Sure if you get a good hit with AP rounds, you can do alot more damage, but most of the time you have to live with over pens and bounces. With HE that is not a problem, heck a near miss seems to start a fire, it is getting stupid and half the time you seem to be on fire when you play

[Crysantos]

I have limited experience playing BBs as I only have New Mexico and Trololorado but I think HE is more or less fine. Dealing with 1 CA alone is usually easy unless he's extremely good. Dealing with 2 CA's alone isn't recommended but if you must, you need to stay at range. If you rush into 2 CA's alone you're going to burn to death there isn't anything you can do about it. If you're being rekt by more than 2 I don't see why it's unreasonable that you're getting raped.

 

What people also don't seem to get is that you need to be extremely strategic playing a BB. You need to be patient and smart about your shots and even smarter about your movements. Overextend a slight bit and you're stuck in a spot where you're basically done. Since your gun accuray is so bad and the reload time is horrid, your aim needs to be on point too. Yes I've had perfect shots fail often but I'm reliably trashing people that give me a good angle. Not every shot is gonna be a devastating blow, but they often hurt a lot.

 

This. I'd probably tweak a bit at fire damage % to make it less powerful or at least a few seconds cooldown for new fires, but in general HE is fine.

[Supakadai]

The AP work in some situation, but usually they are waste of time. BB's have so poor accuracy you will get most of the time missing/overpenetrating/dinging/otherretardedthings while getting peppered by some "tactical genius in a cleveland" spamming 10+ HE hits every 5 seconds on you. The BB as a class is broken, it's just not working. Currently they are just huge, slow practice targets for every other class.

[Userext]

 

So your solution is to run away and hide? Not sure I understand you? I was in  a New York, if they wanted to be able to shoot at me, they had to come within my range. Sure if you get a good hit with AP rounds, you can do alot more damage, but most of the time you have to live with over pens and bounces. With HE that is not a problem, heck a near miss seems to start a fire, it is getting stupid and half the time you seem to be on fire when you play

 

If you cant handle enemy fire you have to run and hide. You arent sailing teh most powerfull ship in history. If there are 2-3 CAs spamming at you it is pretty dumb to not cut contact with at least one of them

[Dominico]

I think it's fine too.

 

The problem with he is that player put out the first fire and then burn to death. You need to save extinguish for emergency or after the fight.

 

That said there is one American cruiser I think tier 6 which can spam he at ridiculous rates and does make the mechanic feel broken. It needs the fire chance lowering Imo.  

 

P's anyone know, you know you get level 1 2 3 4 fires etc. Does the enemy have to hit you in different places to make more fire. Or can hits on a burning section cause another fire level.

[Userext]

P's anyone know, you know you get level 1 2 3 4 fires etc. Does the enemy have to hit you in different places to make more fire. Or can hits on a burning section cause another fire level.

 

Enemy has to hit you from other parts to start another fire. HE and AP mechanics works detailed. A damaged room or upper part is not so damage bringing for both types of ammo. You also can not start fire if you hit comamnd tower that is already on fire.

[RAMJB]

Believe it or not,a great portion of Battleships were ultimately destroyed by fires in real life.The wooden decks were "Zippos" waiting to be set afire.

 

That's just blatantly false. In fact no battleship were ultimately destroyed by fires in real life since the Dreadnought era began.

 

I'll be generous and include "battlecruisers" in the list.

 

-list of capital ships sunk during wartime operations:

WW1:

SMS Lutzow (German BC): Sunk due to progressive flooding after the battle of Jutland

HMS Invincible (British BC): Blew up after magazine explosion (AP Hit)

HMS Indefatigable (British BC): Blew up after magazine explosion (AP hit)

HMS Queen Mary (British BC): Blew up after magazine explosion (AP hit)

HMS Audacious (British BB): Sank after hitting a mine (underwater damage)

SMS Viribus Unitis (austrian BB): Sank after sabotaged by frogmen (underwater damage)

SMS Szent Istvan (austrian BB): Sank after torpedoed by enemy torpedo boats (underwater damage)

 

WW2:

HMS Hood: Blew up after magazine explosion (AP Hit)

HMS Prince of Wales: Torpedoed and sunk by air attack

HMS Repulse: Torpedoed and sunk by air attack

HMS Barham: torpedoed and sunk by U-boat

HMS Royal Oak: Torpedoed while at anchor by U-boat

KM Bismarck: Sunk by progressive flooding and/or scuttling charges (flooding damage)

KM Tirpitz: Sunk by massive structural damage and flooding after being hit by 5-ton bombs

KM Scharnhorst: Sunk by battleship gunfire (AP shells, north cape)

KM Gneisenau: constructive total loss while refitting at drydock (air attack)

IJN Yamato: Sunk by massed air attack by torpedo bombers (capsized and sank due to progressive flooding - underwater damage)

IJN Mushashi: Sunk by massed air attack by torpedo bombers (capsized and sank due to progressive flooding - underwater damage)

IJN Hiei: Sunk by air attack after her steering was disabled by cruiser gunfire (flooding damage)

IJN Kirishima: obliterated by 16 inch gunfire from battleships (AP hits)

IJN Haruna: Sunk by air attack while moored

IJN Kongo: Torpedoed by US Submarine (underwater damage)

IJN Mutsu: Magazine explosion while moored (accident)

IJN Fuso: torpedoed by destroyers in Surigao Strait (underwater damage)

IJN Yamashiro: overwhelmed by battlesihp gunfire in Surigao Strait (AP hit)

IJN Ise: Sunk by air attack while moored

IJN Hyuga: Sunk by air attack while moored

RM Conte di Cavour: Sunk by torpedo bombers while moored

RM Roma: Sunk by FX-1400 guided bombs (AP bomb)

USS Arizona: sunk by a 800kg AP glider bomb while moored (AP bomb)

USS Oklahoma: Sunk by overwhelming torpedo damage while moored (underwater damage)

MN Bretagne: sunk by battleship gunfire (AP hits)

MN Dunkerque: Scuttled at toulon to prevent capture by germans

MN Strassbourg: Scuttled at toulon to prevent capture by germans

MN Provence: Scuttled at toulon to prevent capture by germans

 

I'm not even adding things like the Gangut (sunk by 1000kg Stuka bomb hits while moored), and others that probably slip my mind (writing this off memory).

 

How exactly does that list accomplish your affirmation that: a great portion of Battleships were ultimately destroyed by fires in real life?

 

[Flavio1997]

Just to make the stupidity of HE damage clear. 18 fires out of 70 hits and a total of 42.000 damage from the fires, good luck repairing your way out of that one.

 

That is an average of less than 2500hp per fire....not that op imho, not at all

[devorrio]

What really happen in real life isn't a concern for this topic. Game doesn't emulate real life events nor it should be. What I am trying to point out (I really doubt that they don't already know it yet) is that HE type of shells offers little room to maneuver and / or counter it.

 

It seems that many of us do not understand so I will repeat, in clear, what I've said before between the lines.

I am for a normalized gameplay that follows the natural "wanna be" balance in the game

- AP for heavily armored targets

- HE shells when AP over penetrate and do little damage 

If I've misunderstood the description and the hints that the game offers please correct me and point me in the right direction, maybe my english is bad and I misinterpret text.

 

I haven't said that (and please do not misunderstand this time):

- BB's are under powered

- I don't know how to play a battleship (I know, or I don't, its my problem)

- Battleships are slow / inaccurate / torpedo magnets / cry over "insert reason here"

- Cannot fight 2/3 Cruisers at the same time

 

I am very very happy with BBs at this present, they offer great risk / reward; i really love them, the only problem (for me at least, but maybe its just me) is that I cannot think of a way of countering HE shells fire. Maybe at higher tires things will go differently. Maybe in E sports they won't have the same problem since they will play as a team / maybe the game is / getting balanced for E Sports right now and here in "noobie land" where we have a chaotic play style things are how they should.

 

What I am seeing right now is to much freakin' fire 

 

Thanks.

 

 

[Adwaenyth]

The things you described with the AP shell "choreography" also exist in the HE spam.Wiggle to avoid incoming fire and always learn to use the repair and the "HP regenerate" ability at the right time.Fire damage is considered low damage which is repaired up to 90-95%.

 

You can't stress this enough because battleships can repair:

 

90% of light damage (by fire/flooding and overpens)

50% of medium damage (by normal pens)

10% of heavy damage (by citadel hits)

[Armoured_Underpants]

Ive been playing about a month now and at first I was perplexed at how quickly a ship could be taken out by fire. However, after some time on the learning curve and some time thinking about it away from the game I have come up with the following as I believe that it does need some work....

 

With 1 fire the time it takes to extinguish automatically should be quicker, with only 1 fire all damage control personnel are available plus others that would help. This of course would only happen if not continually getting hit.

With 2 fires, obviously it would take longer to extinguish automatically as personnel are having to deal with two.

The %increase to cause fire Captain skill....is this really necessary ? What is the point of spending all the credits on reducing the chance of fire/ability to reduce burn time if that is partially counteracted by this, you cannot completely stop your ship from catching fire & its easy enough to start them as it is.

IF there is to be a big nerf to HE then maybe it should apply to HE fired from BB's main guns only. The amount of BB players firing HE exclusively because its 'easier' is getting a bit annoying to say the least.

 

Time your repairs correctly on BB's.....

 

If you're in range of a Cruiser, you're probably in range of more than 1 and in several seconds, in range of his BB friends too. Exactly how do you manoeuvre a BB quickly enough to dodge rof while keeping armour angled towards the big guns ? Yes I understand that you could give the offending cruiser a shot or two to make him think twice while you're still burning & repair if he breaks off or repair so that it covers the next 2/3 salvos, but then you have one or more of the BB's also firing HE at you too, so now your repair is on cool-down & while you wait 2/3 more fires are started which take how much HP ?  Yes I know...find cover & then repair....just how often is that even possible unless you're camped behind something only reversing out once reloaded (yes I understand 'crashing' into a position like that faced with multiple enemies, torps & no help) Manoeuvre out of his range ? yeah if he is on his own & you're not opening yourself up to citadels from a bigger ship.

 

The Fact is, BBs are like heavies, they are there to take the punishment & be able to withstand a lot of it & usually against multiple opponents but Its far too easy to get 2/3 fires going & dodge pretty much anything the BB fires at you except if he switches to HE. Come on guys, It needs some work if you're honest. It does damage far more consistently than AP in hits & fires... & there is slightly too much of it in the mechanics of the second.