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Flavio1997

what changes would i like to see to this game? alpha tester opinion

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Alpha Tester
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Nice one. I would really love for this game to be more oriented around dedicated players like you suggest, but sadly we know how new players are underperforming and how hard it is to switch yourself to the correct mindset. IJN CVs on release I think had around 10-15k average score. I have seen people with lower than 7k average damage per game in them.
While I do hate changes which has happened to IJN carriers during that time (no one holds my hand when I have abysmal scores in any other class), there had to be something done to not scare people away from this class. 


Have a +1, but I don't believe we will see those changes, but I do think WG needs to focus more on rewarding the skilled players. 

 

I also want to mention that I agree with your vision of BBs. When I was playing them in CBT I loved that aspect of them, slow behemoths forcing their way through the map. I think game should compliment that feeling a bit more. It would also make even bigger distinction between Battleships and Battlecrusiers like Kongo.

 

 

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Alpha Tester
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Nice one. I would really love for this game to be more oriented around dedicated players like you suggest, but sadly we know how new players are underperforming and how hard it is to switch yourself to the correct mindset. IJN CVs on release I think had around 10-15k average score. I have seen people with lower than 7k average damage per game in them.

While I do hate changes which has happened to IJN carriers during that time (no one holds my hand when I have abysmal scores in any other class), there had to be something done to not scare people away from this class. 

 

Have a +1, but I don't believe we will see those changes, but I do think WG needs to focus more on rewarding the skilled players. 

The main problem is that i still  see people with 8k of avg damage on tier 4 cvs, both langley  and hosho. In my opinion the other fact is that a game with low skill ceiling  will have a short life, while with my suggestions  you will always  keep learning and improving yourself. The main problem are the avg player of my age and younger ( but sadly also older) that don't  want to learn anithing. I can't  understand that, they say to me: i play for fun...how could  you  have fun if you suck so hard? What's  the  point of being useless?

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Alpha Tester
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- Activation time for AAA ability? No thanks, it's hard enough already to time the ability at the exact right time when a carrier can no longer abort his attack.

 

- Buff dds spottability from the air of 20%  -> I hope you mean NERF and not buff, I don't want DD's spotted sooner than they are already.

 

The rest I don't have any counter arguments against, especially since your changes to mobility for instance are seemingly all interlocked. 

 

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Alpha Tester
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- Buff dds spottability from the air of 20%  -> I hope you mean NERF and not buff, I don't want DD's spotted sooner than they are already.

 

The rest I don't have any counter arguments against, especially since your changes to mobility for instance are seemingly all interlocked. 

 

Buff dd spottability means that they should be more invisible from the air, this is a buff ( for ex, a reload time buff means decrease the reload time, is the same stuff here).

About the aa skill, you know that if you activate the aa ability when the cv can't  abort anymore, you are not going to change the spread of the planes right? If cv drop with aa barrage spread is only his fault, that don't  payed attention to his spread

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Alpha Tester
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Buff dd spottability means that they should be more invisible from the air, this is a buff ( for ex, a reload time buff means decrease the reload time, is the same stuff here).

About the aa skill, you know that if you activate the aa ability when the cv can't  abort anymore, you are not going to change the spread of the planes right? If cv drop with aa barrage spread is only his fault, that don't  payed attention to his spread

 

I usually try to do it just before the carrier issues the final attack order, that is what I meant. Or sooner if he has to pass through my aura to get to optimal launch position. But in both situations, planes are too fast especially on higher tiers to have a long activation time, unless carriers would have their circle increased again meaning the flightpath of planes would be more predictable.

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Beta Tester
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Thats should be all of cvs, in my opinion this would cut the damage output of cvs by about 20%, should give them more skill ceiling and more balance between them and other classes.

 

 

In my opinion, skill ceiling for carriers is already too high compared to everything other class. That's why you only see carrier players reaching 80% winrate.

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Beta Tester
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In my opinion, skill ceiling for carriers is already too high compared to everything other class. That's why you only see carrier players reaching 80% winrate.

 

This, because of the versatile options the carrier has compared to other ships, you can actually get very, very good. CVs at level 9-10 tier are extreamly dangerous because of their experience rather then their load-out. (cept midway, that thing is just crazy)

 

midtier CV's are crazy (strike option) because players normally don't know how to handle them, ditto it becomes a very easy ship to get kills with, they have the same damage output  as high-tiers the high tiers but face a fraction of the resistance.

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Alpha Tester
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In my opinion, skill ceiling for carriers is already too high compared to everything other class. That's why you only see carrier players reaching 80% winrate.

 

Skill celling/floor has nothing to do with performance. Fact that a lot of people have those high score means that carrier skill floor is very low.

In fact people with no carrier experience, but with knowladge how to control carriers (youtube videos) and a bit of knowledge regarding ship stats and roles can still get good scores on their first games in this class.

40-50k Langley or 50-70k Hosho average per game is the results people like that have.

 

Skill floor for carriers is low. That is just a fact and WG made them that way, because of people underperformance in them. The worst part is that most often thing said about low tiers is that they are boring. There is a lot of downtime, the requirments from player are low. To add to the damage most people on those tiers do not know how to counterplay, so games are even more boring.

 

Edited by Ishiro32
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Beta Tester
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Skill celling/floor has nothing to do with performance. Fact that a lot of people have those high score means that carrier skill floor is very low.

In fact people with no carrier experience, but with knowladge how to control carriers (youtube videos) and a bit of knowledge regarding ship stats and roles can still get good scores on their first games in this class.

40-50k Langley or 50-70k Hosho average per game is the results people like that have.

 

Skill floor for carriers is low. That is just a fact and WG made them that way, because of people underperformance in them. The worst part is that most often thing said about low tiers is that they are boring. There is a lot of downtime, the requirments from player are low. To add to the damage most people on those tiers do not know how to counterplay, so games are even more boring.

 

 

Erm... I say skill ceiling on CVs is already too high and you counter (?) by saying the skill floor is low? What does one have to do with the other?

 

Fact is: CVs are the one class where you find (good) players consistently reaching 70+ winrate. That's a clear indication that carriers have a very high skill ceiling already, otherwise the very skilled wouldn't perform so much better than the average players. Even the best BB player in the world will only move as fast as his ship allows and hit as well as RNG allows. Carriers have both limitations reduced significantly. Their planes move three times as fast as the quickest ships, and (in the case of torp bombers) have no RNG in their aim. All that remains is how well the player executes his manual torp drops.

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Supertester
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Erm... I say skill ceiling on CVs is already too high and you counter (?) by saying the skill floor is low? What does one have to do with the other?

 

Fact is: CVs are the one class where you find (good) players consistently reaching 70+ winrate. That's a clear indication that carriers have a very high skill ceiling already, otherwise the very skilled wouldn't perform so much better than the average players. Even the best BB player in the world will only move as fast as his ship allows and hit as well as RNG allows. Carriers have both limitations reduced significantly. Their planes move three times as fast as the quickest ships, and (in the case of torp bombers) have no RNG in their aim. All that remains is how well the player executes his manual torp drops.

 

By saying that the Skill ceiling is high,you mean that its pretty difficult to do well in this class which is wrong as Ishiro already stated.Just because a minority has excellent stats in CV,doesnt mean that skill ceilling is high.

 

If you take a look at the stats of the CV players you will see that a great portion of them has quite decent stats.Only a small portion of CV players has more than 2k average exp and its mainly because they feasted on newcomers at the start,having the upper hand because they were more experienced,a fact that remains up untill  the top tiers.

 

Thats not happening with DD's,CA's or BB's because they have higher skill ceiling,the US DD especially....

Edited by Mister_Greek

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Beta Tester
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By saying that the Skill ceiling is high,you mean that its pretty difficult to do well in this class which is wrong as Ishiro already stated.Just because a minority has excellent stats in CV,doesnt mean that skill ceilling is high.

 

If you take a look at the stats of the CV players you will see that a great portion of them has quite decent stats.Only a small portion of CV players has more than 2k average exp and its mainly because they feasted on newcomers at the start,having the upper hand because they were more experienced,a fact that remains up untill  the top tiers.

 

Thats not happening with DD's,CA's or BB's because they have higher skill ceiling,the US DD especially....

 

But that's not what skill ceiling means:

 

A ship with a high skill ceiling requires a lot of skill to maximize its potential. This means that your skill will make a lot of difference between what an average player will achieve and what a good player will achieve.

A ship with a low skill ceiling requires very little skill to maximize its potential. This means that there's only so much a good player can do to perform better than Joe Average.

 

Conversely a high skill floor means a ship that will perform rather adequate no matter if you put a toddler in front of the screen, while a low skill ceiling ship will perform very poorly in the hands of a bad player.

 

Battleships have low ceiling due to limited mobility and high RNG and high floor due to having large amounts of hitpoints and guns that will hurt whenever they happen to land on target.

Carriers are exactly the opposite, in bad hands they'll hit half a torpedo every 4-5 minutes, in good hands they'll take out priority targets from whereever their help is needed most due to their unique ability to bring a lot of firepower to bear on almost every part of the map without interference by bad luck.

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Players
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Battleships have low ceiling due to limited mobility and high RNG and high floor due to having large amounts of hitpoints and guns that will hurt whenever they happen to land on target.

I disagree on that. BBs might have a somewhat higher skill floor than some other ships because it allows you to make more mistakes before you die, if you move like a bot, exposing your broadside. But they're also larger, slower and slower turning targets primarily follower by a horde of torpedoes. 

And that's also why they have fairly high skill ceiling too. Due to your sluggishness it's harder (slash impossible) to avoid a fair number of torpedo planes, having to pay more attention to CA/DD torps while not exposing your broadside to other BBs. Generally you have to think about a minute ahead due to slow reload, slow turrets and potentially RNG. You have to know where to hit for citadels, how to lead on extremely long range, when to use your repair kit/regen. You're almost pretty much permanently spotted, so it's not like you can easily get out of the fight after receiving a hard hit.

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Beta Tester
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- go back to alpha's rudder shift time: nerf them giving at least 50% slower rudder: the bbs should have between 24 and 36 secs shift time (so 12 and 18 secs from neutral to full port-starboard), not 14-22 like now, you should plan everything  ahead, you should feel the fact that you are driving a 50-60k thousands tonnes monster, in alpha ships like yamato and amagi had respectively 32 and 33.5  shift time, we would get  rid of those speedboat-like turning. You shouldn't  be able to  avoid torps if you have spotted them by yourself, that would  be a huge buff for dds and a more realistic  fact ( even if is an arcade game) and an advantage to aware players. Cvs should not be a big problem, if we take into account the changes to cvs i posted above. ( you should also work as a fleet)
 
 

This whole part makes it impossible for a BB to fight a destroyer in a 1on1 scenario. You cant completely rebalance classes to only work together with other classes - while this of course enhances teamwork (which would be a good thing, but then teamwork is never gonna happen) it is in no way a good solution to make certain classes incapable of winning a 1on1.

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Alpha Tester
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This whole part makes it impossible for a BB to fight a destroyer in a 1on1 scenario. You cant completely rebalance classes to only work together with other classes - while this of course enhances teamwork (which would be a good thing, but then teamwork is never gonna happen) it is in no way a good solution to make certain classes incapable of winning a 1on1.

Trust me, we where capable of doing this without too many problems: 2ndaries where  better ( suicide dd runs where way nore hp expensive for dds)  and if you didn't  sailing in a straight line, you would avoid long range torps. In alpha i had won a 1vs7 engagements with a Yamato, and 3 of those enemies where dds.

Even if you did keep circling  you would avoid even tight spread, maybe  being hitted from just 1-2 torps

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Beta Tester
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Trust me, we where capable of doing this without too many problems: 2ndaries where  better ( suicide dd runs where way nore hp expensive for dds)  and if you didn't  sailing in a straight line, you would avoid long range torps. In alpha i had won a 1vs7 engagements with a Yamato, and 3 of those enemies where dds.

Even if you did keep circling  you would avoid even tight spread, maybe  being hitted from just 1-2 torps

 

Its not that avioding to get torped is the problem - but if you have no way to get close enough to that destroyer to actually spot him it doesnt really matter how many torps you evade.

You need the DD to make a mistake to succeed no matter if you do well or not. But then this is how it is on the lower tiers and i ve never been higher than tier 6.

 

Edit: Actually i remeber what i wanted to ask someone with more knowledge - do secondaries fire a enemies you actually cant see? Somebody kept telling but i couldnt really find it anywhere...

Edited by praetor_jax

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Alpha Tester
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Yes, but you are taking in account 1vs 1 situation, where dds should kill bbs, as they are your hardcounter. On high tier you have a lot of planes flying  around, even bbs can launch planes that stay in the air for 6 minutes,  and  dd need 90 to 150 secs to reload, so even in 1on1 situation he can't  trow at you more than 4 salvoes of torps ( mea ing around 40 torps) as it will take 5-6 mintues, only on you

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[BALAM]
Beta Tester
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If only WG cares about catering to competitive players at this stage. While I do agree with pretty much every point you said, the chances of WG doing something about it any time soon is pretty slim.

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Beta Tester
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Yes, but you are taking in account 1vs 1 situation, where dds should kill bbs, as they are your hardcounter. On high tier you have a lot of planes flying  around, even bbs can launch planes that stay in the air for 6 minutes,  and  dd need 90 to 150 secs to reload, so even in 1on1 situation he can't  trow at you more than 4 salvoes of torps ( mea ing around 40 torps) as it will take 5-6 mintues, only on you

 

So when a destroyer on one team and a battleship on the other team are the only ships left it is supposed to be an autowin for the destroyer?

I really get your point but the whole problem is that teamwork doesnt happen in this game and if you cant fight an entire shipclass by yourself  that is just wrong.

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Alpha Tester
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So when a destroyer on one team and a battleship on the other team are the only ships left it is supposed to be an autowin for the destroyer?

I really get your point but the whole problem is that teamwork doesnt happen in this game and if you cant fight an entire shipclass by yourself  that is just wrong.

Well, it would be not a auto win battle for the dds, but should  be an hard win for bbs. If we talk about high tier 8+, a 1 vs 1 engagements bbs vs dd  is not that onesided for the dds as it might seem. Let's  explain: to not be detected by the bbs ( that is not using the scout plane) you have to be at about 8 kilometers, at that distance the torps needs 45-50 secs to arrive to the targhet ( you spot them at 2kms and you have 12 secs of reaction time,  red it from the wg and from spotting mechanichs in newcomers forum). It means that the bb should sail in a straight line  for all that time, and you have to be idiot enough  to sail in a straight  line when you know that you  are in a bb facing an enemy dds, so if you manouver and the dds is using tight spreads, you will never be hit by a single torps, if he use large spread, you will be hit by 1 torps every 90-120 secs for a damage of 14-16k, it doesn't  seem to be efficient to be an hardcounter, isn't  it?

And if the bbs use the scout plane? Even worst, it fly at 6-7kms from you,  it means that to be in a safe distance you  have to be at 12 kms ( assuming 3.5-4kms air detectability for dds) that means  about 70-80 seconds time frame between torps in the water and hipotetical hit, hoping that ofc that little  bugger in the air don't  fly over your torps when they get closer...so, all in all, even in 1 vs 1 engagements,  bbs are not that much harmless against dds, even if they are bb's  hardcounter 

Edit to your edit: no, they don't  fire if enemies  are covered by land or even half covered , but they do if there is an allied ship between you and them ( i sunk a poor allied dd in that way)

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[-UKA-]
Beta Tester
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Some great points there, My only issue is the spped diffrence bettween classes. Higher tier cruisers are as quick as the destroyers so if spotted the poor little DD aint got a hope. Most now arn't woth the effort. .

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[-OIO-]
Beta Tester
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I only really have 1 or 2 probs  in game at the minute,  but ya do raise some good points. 

 

1 - Nerf this manual drop crap on the torp bombers, have a minimum range that they can drop at. its just totally unbelievable that whilst piloting my bb no further than around 200 mtrs ( guessed ) from a cliff side, i get targetted and broadsided  from the cliffside by 4 torps from a flight of aircraft - total tosh is that one for sure. set a minimum distance for the torps to be dropped at, 1.5 k approx seems pretty reasonable

 

2 - Nerf the spamming and fire crap from the shells, end of the day i fire a braodside from my BB at an atlanta, had 5 shells hit him for about 6k damage ( ap) when in reality i would have blown it out the water, he is spamming he shells like fk at me and take half my life before i kill him with my secondary's, really frikking annoying is the h.e spamming and firecontrol

 

thats all for the minute, but may think of some other stuff in a bit

 

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Alpha Tester
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But that's not what skill ceiling means:

 

A ship with a high skill ceiling requires a lot of skill to maximize its potential. This means that your skill will make a lot of difference between what an average player will achieve and what a good player will achieve.

A ship with a low skill ceiling requires very little skill to maximize its potential. This means that there's only so much a good player can do to perform better than Joe Average.

 

Conversely a high skill floor means a ship that will perform rather adequate no matter if you put a toddler in front of the screen, while a low skill ceiling ship will perform very poorly in the hands of a bad player.

 

Battleships have low ceiling due to limited mobility and high RNG and high floor due to having large amounts of hitpoints and guns that will hurt whenever they happen to land on target.

Carriers are exactly the opposite, in bad hands they'll hit half a torpedo every 4-5 minutes, in good hands they'll take out priority targets from whereever their help is needed most due to their unique ability to bring a lot of firepower to bear on almost every part of the map without interference by bad luck.

 

Sorry. I was very tired when writing that post.

 

Anyway I don't really want to go into details, but I do want for carriers to fail more often. I want them to die more often on the battlefield or mess thing up more often.

 

Carriers are very forgiving. The only not forgiving part is the CV sniping, which should stop being dominant strategy for V-8 tiers with the 0.4.1. The difference between good and great player is not as big as it should be in my opinion.

 

IJN tier X is not easy, you can't really talk with people on chat while playing it. It does require skill. Thing is... I just want more. More difficult, more powerfull, much less forgiving carriers, so I can see my mistakes clearly, so I can improve with each game, so I can never be satisfied with my performance.

 

Call me greedy as I want even more power.

Call me masochist as I want to keep failing at my favourite class.

 

That's why for me... it's just low skill celling. Or maybe I just want more risk and excitment.

 

Edited by Ishiro32
  • Cool 2

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