Easy fix to the Broken aspect of carriers.

[Dominico]

Look forward to mature feedback on this.

 

I think from the comments in other threads and numerous you tube vids it's easy to see that the major problem with carriers is how easy they are to play.

 

They should be approachable but the main issue is unlike destroyer torpedoes or shells from batteries they are too easy to hit with consistently and often if there are 2 of then they can dictate the game (though this is often the fault of other cv players)*

 

This is caused by 2 major faults

 

THE TORPEDO LINE

 

This is the specially perfect line of torpedoes all in a row. Dropped in perfect sync.

 

I think the Japanese carriers are a step in the correct direction. As the spread of torpedoes makes it harder to hit a full salvo. 

 

For me 1 step would be staggering the salvo. So instead of a perfect line of tops they should be more realistically fired, some ahead some behind so you don't have a lovely row. Not only would this be more realistic but make a challenge to fire and lesson "perfect salvos" aircrew did not do synchronised drops in a lovely line. (They wished they could)

 

The second major problem for me is the ability to readjust and readjust salvos on the fly continuously. 

 

HYPER MANOUVERABLE PLANES

 

When I play recently I have stopped using this mechanism and it makes the cv play A LOT more fun and challenging (fun for me equates a challenge so this may not work for all) I would recommend trying a game or two where you don't alllow yourself to reposition shots once you are close to the enemy and set a torp path. It's still fairly easy to get hits nearly every time.  But you are less likely to get full salvo hits.

 

I realised quite soon after playing cvs the biggest issue was re adjusting shots over and over after enemy maneuvers. 

 

This mechanic is already there to a small extent, once the planes start their limited run of about 3 metres they are locked into firing. So this run just needs extending.  It's a super simple fix.

 

This would extend the skill ceiling (only slightly) for cvs and make avoiding maneuvers more rewarding for others. Ultimately the game is for fun. Yes carriers should cause fear and be respected. But good results should be hard to get.  Not click click. 

 

Personally I would also make AA fire also increase the spread of shots like fighters do but I realise this might make hits too hard, so is probably out of the question.

 

 

*For cv vs cv play I would also have made all strike load outs unavailable because many players will pick this so they can sink as much as possible and for games when there are no enemy cvs.  This is bad play in a team game when you end up with cvs on both sides just focusing on sinking as much tonnage as possible with no care for defence.

[beercrazy]

only major problem I now see with carriers is:

when its unbalanced ie 2v1

when a cruiser spotter/fighter shoots down a full fighter squadron? and yea its happened to me and another platoon m8

 

the rest of the so called problems are easily manageable in obt

[Dominico]

only major problem I now see with carriers is:

when its unbalanced ie 2v1

when a cruiser spotter/fighter shoots down a full fighter squadron? and yea its happened to me and another platoon m8

 

 

the rest of the so called problems are easily manageable in obt

 

I don't think 2v1 is a problem. You can have 3 battleship vs 1 etc for me that's a fun challenge, and I think fighters from cruisers only do well if they are high level to yours. But yes they do seem powerful for a solo fighter!! Spotters are definitely not powerful vs fighters!

[beercrazy]

 

I don't think 2v1 is a problem. You can have 3 battleship vs 1 etc for me that's a fun challenge, and I think fighters from cruisers only do well if they are high level to yours. But yes they do seem powerful for a solo fighter!! Spotters are definitely not powerful vs fighters!

 

 

I had a game tonight with me in a tier4 Langley against a American and japan tier 5

now that kind of match making is awful for a carrier player but its a problem easily fixed now we have a stable player base that is over 30000 on a regular basis

the spotter plane your probably right about but tbh I haven't taken much notice but the fighter on cruisers are for some reason way op and just take for instance a tier4 phoenix against a tier4 Kuma the phoenix does not have a fighter but the Kuma does and you shoot more down with a Kuma than a phoenix but stats show a phoenix has more aa power

some aspects of this game are screwed up bigtime but we have to accept its a beta game still and we need to work with what we have

[Tomerell]

 

I don't think 2v1 is a problem. You can have 3 battleship vs 1 etc for me that's a fun challenge, and I think fighters from cruisers only do well if they are high level to yours. But yes they do seem powerful for a solo fighter!! Spotters are definitely not powerful vs fighters!

 

I agree the 2v1 problem, esp, when it is 1IJN against 2 US CV. In thos cases it gets really challenging to manage enemy fighter squadrons in any level....

[Tugnut]

Anouther CV wine thead.  Just whats needed. I think the biggest flaw in CV is first a lot of the players have no clue on how to avoid a torp strike and second a lot of good aa ships will run off at the start instead of cover here BB/CV.     When i play DD i  all ways looking for a gap to go hunt there cv.  

 

And tbh you should be careful for what you wish. If they dumb down cv to match dumb players in bb......   You may see a ship wide nerf.   

 

I play quite a few games a day funny thing is i dont see cv at the top all the time and dont see them with tons of kills.  Yes i see the odd game that they do but no more than any other ship class.

 

Imho BB players want there ship to fire at a rate like a ca turn like a dd have aa like a cleveland. And be able to spot torps from 8k out but to be honest see so many games that planes see the torps incoming and you could turn the ship in circles twice and still avoid the torps yet the player stays in zoomed mode and still gets hit that one dont matter.

 

So lets look at this... if a ship with aa or attack aircraft was to escort you the US torp spread is wide....  and planes being able to turn quick... well the game is only so long and if a cv wants to risk being closer to the action to roll out planes quicker can be risky on him. If he plays safe longer flight times to get to target.  Also they only have so many aircraft. So in a way it benifits the aa ships to gelp there bb/cv in killing as many as poss to the point they dont ned to worry about the cv any more....  well thats 2 points of your countered.   

 

And the game is in beta still soo lots of tweaking to happen yet... the biggest fix would be a better mm.   And even my days of playing wot the same ole responce keep an eye on the mini map... its got soo much info like planes directions,  any DD that might be spotted close to you.. the list goes on.  

[Spellfire40]

Plane turning rate is ok. It machen the redicules turn Rates of US BB ,-)))))

 

Cya 

 

Spellfire40 

 

[Hauptbahnhof]

 

I agree the 2v1 problem, esp, when it is 1IJN against 2 US CV. In thos cases it gets really challenging to manage enemy fighter squadrons in any level....

 

I ended up top of my team in a 1vs2 when I was IJN CV with 2 US CVs ( one of them with air superiority deck ), it was one of the most fun games I had since I love challenges.

 

Their fighters were ofcourse everywhere and I had to bait-switch and micromanage like hell to try to lock their fighters over our AA cruisers. Yes in the end I ran out of planes, but only after having landed enough opportunity score on enemy warships near our Cruisers. By then I had delayed their CVs long enough to get caught pants down by our surface ships, and we won right after that.

 

 

I really don't get the problem people have with 2v1 CVs. What makes fun game is diversity and different challenges, especially if you are higher tier CV then 2v1 can be really fun and challenging.

 

 

Imagine how utterly boring the game would be if it always matched identical amount of classes and tiers in both teams... ugh.

[Hannibalurg]

1. Forcing IJN to have more fighter just to fight the allready well-known stronger fighters of the USN would be to auto-gimp the iJN line.

2. Further increasing AA i can agree on lower tiers, on high tiers AA is extremely powerful. Des Moins rapes planes even before you can see the DM and aircraft at the same time at the minimap.

2. When a group of 3+ USN higher T9+ CA/BB's group togheter it will eat away your planes before you can even drop anything, reducing strike squads will render them obsolete and untouchable.

4. As an experienced CV captain i can only say there is extreme large difference between those who can dodge strikes, and those who can't. At higher tiers you can't circle 2-3 times over the ship without losing far to many fighters, you need to bring them in early at a good angle, thus giving the victim better time to prepare to dodge.

 

@ OP: you have 22 games on Tier 5, rest is below tier 5. You simply haven't learned how to play in games vs CV's

 

Changing game mechanics based on advice from players with low experience with the game, is not the right way to go about it. It is better for all parties that you learn how to play the game, before changing core game mechanics.

[Spellfire40]

Hauptbahnhof : Its fun if you have reserves. T4 and 5 CV (plus for US T6 indi). Dont have that. And it's on Thease tir people think CV are most OP. At T4 you can decimate a whole hosho air group with 1 Langley fighter with 1 rearm. People just dont understand what CV can do and what not despite 200 CV posts per Day ,-))

 

Cya

 

Spellfire40 

[Hannibalurg]

second a lot of good aa ships will run off at the start instead of cover here BB/CV.  

 

Not just that, but it's usually the stray dogs ( singel ship alone without allies nearby) that allways say " CV's OP scrub bla bla bla"

 

At higher tier games people have not yet learned how silly it is to sail solo, then when you get punished for it, ofc OP OP OP QQ.

[Hauptbahnhof]

Hauptbahnhof : Its fun if you have reserves. T4 and 5 CV (plus for US T6 indi). Dont have that.

 

They don't? How about you stop talking BS?

 

Langley 12 in air + 18 reserves

Hosho 12 in air + 12 reserves

Bogue 18 in air + 10 reserves

Zuiho 16 in air + 14 reserves

Independence 18 in air + 19 reserves

[Iron_Gekko]

 

Not just that, but it's usually the stray dogs ( singel ship alone without allies nearby) that allways say " CV's OP scrub bla bla bla"

 

At higher tier games people have not yet learned how silly it is to sail solo, then when you get punished for it, ofc OP OP OP QQ.

 

This, a lot of the issues always come around carrier fodder, ditto single ships that think they can do their own thing... which can be true if they aren't a big moving target (BB's)

 

Yes a CV has a long reach, but a CV is also the only ship that has limited ammo, now if you're doing you're job correctly and have proper AA, then this limited ammo should be spent before the game is done.

[Koradhil]

Imho BB players want there ship to fire at a rate like a ca turn like a dd have aa like a cleveland. And be able to spot torps from 8k out but to be honest see so many games that planes see the torps incoming and you could turn the ship in circles twice and still avoid the torps yet the player stays in zoomed mode and still gets hit that one dont matter.

 

So true. I play a lot of games as carrier, and there are so many instances when players (not only BBs, often happens to cruisers as well) don't pay attention at all, and you watch in horror the inevitable doom from your bird's eye perspective and you want to shout "turn, turn, turn", but nothing happens. Works the same way with ships coming around islands when they should know that there is an enemy destroyer just on the other side of it. So many players seem to have problems with multitasking that they completely forget to pay attention once their guns are locked onto a target.

[Spellfire40]

 

They don't? How about you stop talking BS?

 

Langley 12 in air + 18 reserves

Hosho 12 in air + 12 reserves

Bogue 18 in air + 10 reserves

Zuiho 16 in air + 14 reserves

Independence 18 in air + 19 reserves

Wich means a Bogue for example cant refill if it loses a wave. And it faces Clevelands.Have you foght in an independence vs a Lexi ? Your faster out of planes than you can blink. With Ryojo plus you have the reserves and squads to play bait games. Before that you cant throw away planes needlessly unless you find someone stupid enogh to case you DBS

 

Cya

 

Spellfire40 

[Tugnut]

Players that dont pay attention make me chuckle... pilks in his DD last night came round a island the CA secondrys started firing at him the ca tgen crashed in to a island and pilks put all his torps in to him.....BOOM one dead ca.....  the rage post in chat went some thing like bloody invisible dd again.  Pmsl well first island covered his run up to the ca and when he poped out he must of saw him as his secondary fire did lol. 

 

To easy for players to blame every thing but the real problem... that they fecked up.

[Hannibalurg]

To easy for players to blame every thing but the real problem... that they fecked up.

 

Well can't really blame players. Developers have for far to long been holding the hand of players since they log on, until they log out. As soon as people need to think independantly, everything becomes OP:

[Multispec]

 

Well can't really blame players. Developers have for far to long been holding the hand of players since they log on, until they log out. As soon as people need to think independantly, everything becomes OP:

 

Independent thinking OP, please nerf.

[Hauptbahnhof]

Wich means a Bogue for example cant refill if it loses a wave.

 

You claimed they didn't have reserves, I showed that they did.

 

Yes the reserves for the Bogue are the lowest in the game when upgraded, but to compensate the get the highest amount of airplanes starting in the air out of any t4 or t5 CV.

 

I agree that it would struggle if facing higher tier CVs, and yes that balance tier for tier of CVs need to be improved, but AA is not an issue in t4 or t5, so just don't throw away your planes in that CV and it will work.

[Spellfire40]

 

You claimed they didn't have reserves, I showed that they did.

 

Yes the reserves for the Bogue are the lowest in the game when upgraded, but to compensate the get the highest amount of airplanes starting in the air out of any t4 or t5 CV.

 

I agree that it would struggle if facing higher tier CVs, and yes that balance tier for tier of CVs need to be improved, but AA is not an issue in t4 or t5, so just don't throw away your planes in that CV and it will work.

 

Well perhaps you missunderstood i didnt mean 0 reserve when i said no reserves. even Bogue has some it  just cant refuill its flight to full when it loses a wave. With no reserves i mean enogh planes to be an factor on the Map. With feint operation your sacrifices at least one squad (usally DB due to their high speed and low use) expecting looses. With luck you can kite oposing fighters over AA ships if your oponent is distracted. With about one refill you cant throw away your main atackser because expirenced players will kill some of them even without aircover even at level 4 and 5. My personal best are Wyoming: 6 Myogi: 6 New York:6 Kongo:11 Yubari: 17 Omaha 10 Murmask:14 in the T4 and 5 range. While BBs usally only shoot down Planes when self atacked CA can actively hunt down Squads. Luckyly for CV players most most CA are stuck in their tunelvision and dont like to spend time away every 4 to 6 min for 30 sek to really anoy CVs. If you have 1 to 2 CA that know what they are doing plus latehull BBs that dont ignore atacks till the Torps hit the water you can seriously depleate the reserves of low level CVs pretty quick even at T4 and 5. I play all classes and i personally think calls to nerf are unneeded on both sides. I dont think you cant deal with Clevlands in an CV and i dont think you cant deal with air atacks in an BB. the drawback is that CVs can deal their own forunes more easyly by use of skills while an working air defence requires to think as a team.

 

 

Cya

 

 

Spellfire40

[Dominico]

Worryingly I don't think many of you even read the post. N some of you are beta testers no less. I know it takes no qualifications to get that post but still.

 

You all went off on a tangent about battleships and blah blah.

 

My post was saying how the issue is re aiming the torpedo planes. In other words yes its easy to dodge torpedo bombers. But it's also easy as a bomber to set a drop, adjust adjust adjust. Which means a decent torpedo player vs decent enemy ship WILL sink him.

 

It's far to easy for me to re aim my torpedoes again and again making them IMPOSSIBLE to avoid. 

 

I'm not talking about a bad player vs a good dodger.  I'm talking about competent vs competent.

 

The fact I can run games in a cv worries me. And a roughly 80%  win rate for a total beginner is also worrying.

 

I think a lot of you have played too much and got burnt out and seem no longer qualified to comment on good game play. From the 20 or 30 friends I have playing this game who use carriers and give similar stories of the aiming reset being too easy. You do realise the game is still in beta so needs feedback. 

 

To be honest the point you missed the point and went off on some random tangent....

[Spellfire40]

And i was saying there is nothing wrong with CV you dont need torpedo nerfs. You dont need aa nerfs you need to know what ship is able to do what and what not. People think CV are OP in low level because the lack of AA. But thats not the case. you can defend yourself IF your at least level 4 and you have the late hulls in an BB. There were tons of CV are OP and Torps are OP in cbt too. and at the end you got  like 4 Torp hits out of 105 fired in a Minekaze because people wised up. If a newbee cant reduce the number of hits on his shiny stock BB its not the CV fault. If he dont learn to deal with it in low level how will he survive in higher were he has less time to reakt due to faster plane speeds? WG nerfed the arming distance in CBT and made the auto atack closer to compensate. the only thing that did was that you could hit with auto easyer and skilled CV still killed strait driving BBs just that skill didnt matter since auto was as good as manuel. The reason you have a harder time in T4 and 5 isnt that there isnt any AA its that the AA has a limited range and requies ships with AA to ACTIVLY try to intercept.

 

Cya

 

Spellfire40

[Echelon2k]

I just had an idea after watching "PQ17: An Arctic Convoy Disaster" again:

 

 One of the escorting destroyers USS Wainwright had increased to flank speed and set off on its own straight towards the incoming planes and then when it was 4000 yards from the convoy executed a 32knot "handbrake turn" to bring its starboard guns to bear....

 

most of the german planes either turned tail and rfled back to Norway or dropped their torpedos so early they didn't stand a chance of reaching the Wainwright let alone the Convoy.

 

on to my point i think it would be great if once a Cruisers triggers it's AA ability every plane that has the "fear" - debuff get's a 1% chance per second to immediately drop their payload for as long as they stay in the debuff area ( so 1% for the first second / 2% for the second second / 3% for the third and so on ). In turn the Captains skill that makes the planes reargunner more effective would have be changed to also reduce this effect by lets say 3% so the planes could stay in the AA area for at least 3 seconds before they would even have a chance to "accidentally" drop their payload. Or maybe WG could introduce a T2 skill with the same effect.

 

[Aerroon]

My post was saying how the issue is re aiming the torpedo planes. In other words yes its easy to dodge torpedo bombers. But it's also easy as a bomber to set a drop, adjust adjust adjust. Which means a decent torpedo player vs decent enemy ship WILL sink him.

It's far to easy for me to re aim my torpedoes again and again making them IMPOSSIBLE to avoid. 

 

Who? What do you consider "competent"?

 

The fact I can run games in a cv worries me. And a roughly 80%  win rate for a total beginner is also worrying.

 

But your win rate with carriers is 61%.

 

I think a lot of you have played too much and got burnt out and seem no longer qualified to comment on good game play. From the 20 or 30 friends I have playing this game who use carriers and give similar stories of the aiming reset being too easy. You do realise the game is still in beta so needs feedback. 

 

And I think the issue isn't nearly as big as you make it out to be. I mean your highest tier ship is tier 5 on EU. You haven't even gotten to a tier where cruisers get the panic ability yet. Isn't it a bit too early to come up with grand conclusions about what the game balance is like? 

 

[Luckyio]

But your win rate with carriers is 61%.

Point being made here appears to be "the only ones who can counter me are other carriers, in their absence I can run games". I.e. the standard "class only countered by itself" argument to prove class being imbalanced.

 

So you certainly lose games where you get properly countered by enemy carriers. But you can carry games where you don't, because other player playing other classes cannot counter your onslaught. Hence "carry games".