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Entombet

HMNS K XVII conspiracy theory

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On November 28, 1941, at five minutes after twelve noon, approaching the Dutch submarine K-XVII, commanded by Lieutenant-sea in Besancon, a position in the Pacific Ocean, and 43.30 N 155.20 E, about 280 miles northeast of the Japanese Takane Bay. Here one discovers a fleet of Japanese warships that follows a zigzag course. Capt. Besancon rightly notes that this rate in a straight line 88 degrees, and that the navy will take to Hawaii and Pearl Harbor, eight hundred miles away.

In the evening of December 7, 1941, the K-XVII with all hands in the Pacific sinking due to sabotage by the British secret service. The only sin that the Dutch had committed was their discovery that the Japanese fleet was heading for Pearl Harbor. This news was deliberately withheld, to make sure that the Americans were involved in the world.

It was considered essential that the Dutch took this secret in their watery grave.

 

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Creighton:

"I realize that you will not want to believe this story. All I can say is that I have done my best to tell the truth about an operation that more than fifty years earlier and which - as is usual in this sort of thing - very few documents have survived. I must add that my imagination very flawed. I had the story can not possibly think of and would not know how I should have the detailed technical data. On the contrary, I had to my own memories and rely on official reports from me and my colleagues, who immediately after the events were written. During and after World War II required my work as a secret agent
the highest degree of confidentiality, and although Sir Winston Churchill and Lord Mountbatten me black and white
have given permission to tell my story, I have their promise to wait until after their death. Nevertheless, I have certain incidents can not trust the paper, partly in the interest of people mentioned, partly to meet the needs of a number of important European politicians.

Again, this is my personal story, you may believe it or not. Because, like Aristotle, I am only interested in the truth and not what people believe. The decision to the Dutch submarine K-XVII to destroy, was taken for the following reasons. On November 28, 1941, when Captain Besancon the Japanese fleet was in sight, which apparently is in the direction of Pearl Harbor went, he immediately telegraphed a coded message to the British naval command in the Far East. Operated below the Dutch.

The message was intercepted by the Department of cryptography section of M in Singapore. Within hours of the message copies arrived in Washington, only for General Donovan personally, and in London, by Major Desmond Morton. Both shone in their respective bosses, Roosevelt and Churchill. These four people knew that Japan was planning to attack Pearl Harbor and had prayed that nothing would come between.

In that time eighty percent of the U.S. population a very isolationist stance and she was strongly opposed to a war with Japan or Germany. If Roosevelt declare war on Japan without U.S. targets were attacked, then the chances are that he should resign. Conversely, when America would keep aloof - they concluded Morton and Donovan - would the Japanese free reign
unhindered and India, Australia, New Zealand and many other countries in the Pacific and Indian Ocean can occupy. It would probably be impossible for these countries at a later stage free. Moreover, the British and their allies desperately need the help of America in their fight against Germany. When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, it was certain that America would intervene in the war.

But when the British and American leaders of the coming attack were aware, why were U.S. forces at Pearl Harbor on standby or not? And why the U.S. warships were ordered not to sail? At sea, they were still much safer and able to fight back? According to experts, the Navy still be successfully defended?

The answer to the question why nothing happened is simple. In Hawaii there were thousands of Japanese immigrants. Most of them presented themselves very loyal to over their new homeland, but some had spied for Japan. Moreover sparkled the Japanese Consulate-General of the activities.

When the base was in readiness, would the Japanese high command within a few hours have known. The attack would be canceled by Emperor Hirohito, who insisted that it would be a complete surprise.
Roosevelt would have had no reason to get America into war, and that would be disastrous for the Allies. What all this had to do with the K XVII is obvious.

When it became known that Roosevelt and Churchill knew about the attack on Pearl Harbor and had done nothing to prevent them, would not only have their careers to an end, but would probably have fallen apart the whole alliance. Then the Japanese had free reign and could conquer half the world and plunder.

Once the message was received from the submarine, the whole affair was surrounded by a wall of absolute secrecy. The K-XVII was ordered to return to base in Singapore for bunker fuel. The submarine was not allowed to enter the port and in its subsequent reports in no way hint at the Japanese fleet.

Under the name of Lieutenant-ter-zee Paul Hammond, one of my aliases, which the name and ranking of British naval officers came, I traveled [Creighton] with a Berwick-flying boat with special additional fuel through Nova Scotia, San Francisco and Wake Island to the Northern Mariana Islands, where I as agreed at the December 6, 1941 aboard the K-XVII failed. At that stage of the war operated the Dutch submarines in the Far East under the British naval command, and I was in possession of proxies from the main submarine fleet, Admiral Sir Max Horton, Commander in Chief of the free Dutch navy in London and Queen Wilhelmina , who had resided in Reading Berkshire. These powers gave me the authority to master Besancon operational tasks to provide on behalf of the British Admiralty, although none of them had any idea where I wanted to use that authority. So did Captain Besancon. In one of the small Mariana Islands, just south of Pagan and about eight hundred miles south of Japan, were crates from Berwick-on flying boat loaded into the submarine. The crew was told that Christmas gifts from their colleagues in England were. Most boxes contain indeed gin, whiskey, beer, champagne and other Christmas stuff. But in a crate Sat cyanide and two crates of explosives and other inflammatory mechanisms with timers.

I waited for a coded radio signal. If the Japanese fleet's attack on Pearl Harbor layer would be unnecessary at my surgery and canceled.The Japanese had attacked Pearl Harbor. That night I left the K XVII and I went back to Berwick. A half hour later, the deadly cyanide gas and showed how the crew tried to escape from the submarine. Moments later the ship exploded and sank. I found that there were no survivors. "

Christopher Creighton
London, August 1996

 

Start of the search for K-XVII

Because of the first rumors the K-XVII commanders son (Besancon) started a search for the K-XVII.
On 26th of April 1982 he left for the South China Sea and on May 2nd the team of the Hatcher diving company dived several miles off the island of Tioman, Hatcher had discovered the submarine 4 years earlier. Because the submarine had sunk deep into the mud it was impossible to read the boats name. But a number was found on the bronze steeringweel, with this number the historical section of the Royal Netherlands Navy could identify the sub as the K-XVII. Some Dutch words and equipment was also found on the wreck. Unfortunately the diving team could not find out why the submarine sunk.

The real location was several thousands of miles away from the position from were the Dutch sub spotted the Japanese fleet (according to Creighton) were Creighton sunk the Dutch sub.

 

Start of the search for K-XVII

1991: Besancon meets Japanese Naval Officer N. Kitazawa

The officer told him about the book 'The Day Imperial General Headquarters trembled for fear' (1968). In this book is written that the Japanese laid a line of mines less than a kilometer east of K-XVIIs wreck. Originally the line off mines was planned 30 kilometers up North. The Japanese minelayer changed plans because she was disturbed by a Dutch flying boat.

1996: Interview with Creighton

Creighton says the Dutch sub found near Tioman is a fake. A sistership (nominated for brake up) was dressed up like the K-XVII, they even altered the number on the steeringwheel (number was used to identify the wreck!). The boat was maneuvered to the minefield near Tioman, so the secret service must have known the location (that was changed at the last moment because the Japanese minelayer was disturbed by a Dutch plane) of the Japanese minefield without informing the navy! Mines had to be moved or dismantled. Once in the minefield the boat was
scuttled, using explosives in such a way that it would appear she was struck by a mine.

KXVII probably did sight a Pacific Fleet

Although the stories surrounding the sighting of the Pearl Harbour fleet are usually dismissed, there is evidence that KXVII did see a Japanese fleet in the Pacific on or before December 4th 1941.

On December 4th 1941, the Dutch notified Australia that they were alarmed by Japanese southwards naval movements in the Pacific. At this time the Philippine invasion force was about 500 miles NE of the Palau Islands .

The Australians, as already agreed with the Dutch, sent forces to Ambon and Dutch Timor, in defence of "Japanese aggression"

'And I was there' by Edwin Layton says

"Royal Netherlands Navy Submarines spotted a Japanese invasion force heading South. The Dutch overreacted when the Java government called on the Australian Government to put into operation their joint part in the Rainbow 5 war plan"

In January 1942 KXVII appeared on the front cover of newsweek as "Dutch Submarine: Star performer of the Pacific"

This appears to be an official leak. This same magazine says that the Batavian authorities were "privately peeved" with London for not doing more to respond to DEI concerns about the "certainty" of war with Japan .

"The Netherlands Navy went to sea on 30th of November" and had
"unexpected results"

Although the Dutch Alert definately happened, it is never clearly recorded as such in official books and is usually inaccurately described by popular Pearl Harbour books as being related to events in the South China Seas .

The Official History of Australia 1939-1942 does make it clear that the alert was related to Pacific events.

Banner front page headlines in Australia also made it clear this was a Pacific event.

"OMINOUS MOVES IN PACIFIC: WAR CABINET ACTS"

"Conditions in the Pacific have deteriorated to the gravest stage since the outbreak of war"

"Diplomatic negotiations aimed at preserving peace in the Pacific have broken down completely"

"In Collaboration with the Netherlands East Indies the Australian Government put into operation yesterday the first stage of plans prepared for mutual protection against possibilities of aggression"

"War in the Pacific is still not regarded as inevitable, but a most acute stage has been reached, and Japan may decide the issue of war or peace in the next few days" Melbourne Argus December 6th 1941

Churchill gives some very good clues that more was known prior to December 7th in part 3 of his memoirs. 'Grand Alliance ', describes the South China Seas fleet and then says "other Japanese fleets were also at sea on other tasks"

A full reading of the last 3 pages of Chapter 6 of Grand Alliance and first 3 pages of Chapter 7 does make ones jaw drop with surprise.

Those who followed Churchill could not be surprised.

Churchill said in an address to the House of Commons on January 27, 1942, with reference to the Atlantic Conference and
British strategic decisions as time went on after that Conference:

"It must also be remembered that over the whole Pacific scene brooded
the great power of the United States Fleet, concentrated at Hawaii . It
seemed very unlikely that Japan would attempt the distant invasion of
the Malay Peninsula, the assault upon Singapore , and the attack upon
the Dutch East Indies, while leaving behind them in their rear this great American Fleet."


 
Edited by Entombet
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Sorry, but the entire story is extremely implausible. Especially since they would requitre teleportation and time travel, since Pearl Harbor force was sailing through North Pacific, far off the patrol sectors of subs based in SEA. By the end of November 1941the sub was at Malacca strait, with growing tensions it was recalled to Singapore for refuelling and rearming, departed on patrol on Dec 6, with regular reports until the end (heck, it was even attacked by a Japanese sub during this period).

 

No way they could spot Peral Harbor force - and progress of the Philippines and Indies invasion forces was tracked anyway. After all it was this progress that hid the Pearl Harbor strike force a bit - everyone expected the carriers to be with the main force.

 

So: Location/time does not fit, there is no motive, story is made up.

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Alpha Tester
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Sorry, but the entire story is extremely implausible. Especially since they would requitre teleportation and time travel, since Pearl Harbor force was sailing through North Pacific, far off the patrol sectors of subs based in SEA. By the end of November 1941the sub was at Malacca strait, with growing tensions it was recalled to Singapore for refuelling and rearming, departed on patrol on Dec 6, with regular reports until the end (heck, it was even attacked by a Japanese sub during this period).

 

No way they could spot Peral Harbor force - and progress of the Philippines and Indies invasion forces was tracked anyway. After all it was this progress that hid the Pearl Harbor strike force a bit - everyone expected the carriers to be with the main force.

 

So: Location/time does not fit, there is no motive, story is made up.

Well, to be honest, the Dutch Submarine services were always very secretive about their missions, locations and so on (I know this from personal experience), even towards fellow Navy personnel. It is entirely plausible said information and reports about their current location and route at that time were fake and fabricated to throw off any potential spies...

 

And the story also offers a very clear motive.

Edited by Shade1982

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Even the most secretive sub service cannot bend the laws of physics - and by this time the Netherlands navy was in close cooperation (though not under direct command yet) with Royal Navy based off Singapore. 

 

Just calculate how fast it would have to sail to get from the North Pacific to Singapore ;) Not to mention operational range of the submarine. Not to mention the subs had all assigned patrol sectors for a reason. Not to mention that the sub was reporting in Singapore on December 6th, the day the story claims it was destroyed by vile British agent at "northern Marianas". IOW... Clear and present fantasy. Including "swapping wrecks". 

 

And as for lack of motive: The sub could not have spotted Pearl Harbor force. The sub could not have spotted even PI invasion force (as its patrol sectors were rather to the other side). And PI invasion force was hardly a secret, the only doubts were whether it goes for PI, for East Indies or for both. The baloon was up, the war alert was raised on November 26th based on combination of message intercepts and progress (or lack thereof) of negotiations. SE Indies invasion force was spotted very soon after leaving Hainan on Dec 4th. Philippines air force was supposed to go into dispersal short after the War warning and Hawaii forces also made necessary preparations against threats thought likely. The attack and the beginning of war were expected, the only unexpected part was Peral Harbor - and there was no way how this submarine could have spotted that. So there was no motive to any rash action - especially for action involving sinking own side's submarine and murdering its crew without anyone noticing.

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Alpha Tester
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Even the most secretive sub service cannot bend the laws of physics - and by this time the Netherlands navy was in close cooperation (though not under direct command yet) with Royal Navy based off Singapore. 

 

Just calculate how fast it would have to sail to get from the North Pacific to Singapore ;) Not to mention operational range of the submarine. Not to mention the subs had all assigned patrol sectors for a reason. Not to mention that the sub was reporting in Singapore on December 6th, the day the story claims it was destroyed by vile British agent at "northern Marianas". IOW... Clear and present fantasy. Including "swapping wrecks". 

 

And as for lack of motive: The sub could not have spotted Pearl Harbor force. The sub could not have spotted even PI invasion force (as its patrol sectors were rather to the other side). And PI invasion force was hardly a secret, the only doubts were whether it goes for PI, for East Indies or for both. The baloon was up, the war alert was raised on November 26th based on combination of message intercepts and progress (or lack thereof) of negotiations. SE Indies invasion force was spotted very soon after leaving Hainan on Dec 4th. Philippines air force was supposed to go into dispersal short after the War warning and Hawaii forces also made necessary preparations against threats thought likely. The attack and the beginning of war were expected, the only unexpected part was Peral Harbor - and there was no way how this submarine could have spotted that. So there was no motive to any rash action - especially for action involving sinking own side's submarine and murdering its crew without anyone noticing.

To the first part, that is only true IF those reports are actually correct and not fabricated like some others were... Just because their location was somewhere on paper, doesn't mean they actually were...

 

As to the motives part, I absolutely would not put it past some governments to sink an allied submarine if it would further their own cause.

 

Look, I'm not saying I believe this story, I'm just saying it would not surprise me entirely if it turned out to be true. Crazier things have happened in the past and so many things have been lost in the past 60 years about this period of time...

 

[EDIT] For example: there was a heated discussion on the WoT forums about whether Stalin actually was responsible for all the mass murders in the Soviet Union. Some people actually managed to produce copies of documents suggesting he may not have been aware of those actions. Me personally, I really don't believe someone like him would not know about it. He probably knew pretty much everything in his country... [/EDIT]

Edited by Shade1982

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Nice story for fans of conspiracy and speculations... i'm always very careful with this, and there already were several reasons mentioned here.

 

On the other hand i think one thing is for sure, too... we will never have all the correct information of what excactly was going on these days, so yes, some things we believe today may be made up too.

 

But this is just a possibillity to keep in mind and no reason to believe any story that just seems to good and we like to believe for personal reasons...

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Ockham's shaving tool is an useful test for conspiracy theories.

 

Is it possible WSC withheld crucial intelligence from the US? Well, it is possible, would need complicity of very few people. 

 

Is it possible that someone altered all the records, reports, faked a sub (where would he get it) stopping in Singapore with very good doubles of crew, while getting it sung half an ocean away(and teleported)  and planting a wreck of sub (which one) in the "official" place, involving thousands of people... And to gain actually what, given that by that time war in the Pacific was already widely expected and movement of invasion fleets was tracked through radio intercepts? It just makes no sense ;)

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Alpha Tester
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Ockham's shaving tool is an useful test for conspiracy theories.

 

Is it possible WSC withheld crucial intelligence from the US? Well, it is possible, would need complicity of very few people. 

 

Is it possible that someone altered all the records, reports, faked a sub (where would he get it) stopping in Singapore with very good doubles of crew, while getting it sung half an ocean away(and teleported)  and planting a wreck of sub (which one) in the "official" place, involving thousands of people... And to gain actually what, given that by that time war in the Pacific was already widely expected and movement of invasion fleets was tracked through radio intercepts? It just makes no sense ;)

 

Well, of course you are most likely correct on all accounts, but considering the amount of conspiracy theories out there, statistically speaking a few are bound to be true (just look at Nixon alone). And let's be honest, you don't really need secrecy for something to stay hidden. You just need it to sound crazy enough so people won't believe it regardless...

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Alpha Tester
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For me, Though "plausible", as are all good conspiracy theories. The language and presentation is poor and is too biased to a viewpoint to be based on fact. If you read the text closely enough it comes across as far too personalised, particularly with the poor literacy skills for the English language (yes I am aware English may not be native language and that's why I've put English language instead of literacy skills). 

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Alpha Tester
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To push the matter little further, i first read about this matter in "Operation James Bond" by Christopher Creighton.From this book is one big conspiracy theory http://www.henrymakow.com/martin_bormann_was_rothschild.html interesting to read if you like x-files stuff :)

Edited by Entombet

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http://www.go2war2.nl/artikel/2849/Hr-Ms-K-XVII:-sunk-by-a-mine-or-an-assault?.htm?page=1

 

gives you quite a long story about this article ;-)

 

out of that:

 

Furthermore it does not sound very credible if someone states to have been incorporated with an ultra-secret unit when he is only fifteen years of age and succeeds in blowing up a submarine with 36 crew when he is barely 16. Apart from that Hr. Ms. K XVII would have had to be north of Japan in order to have been able to discover the Japanese Pearl Harbor fleet. Namely this fleet had departed from Etorofu the most southerly island of the Kurilles on 26 November, 1941. This was thousands of miles away from the sub’s indicated operational area.

 

Furthermore Creighton indicated that all documents regarding the K XVII had been destroyed or falsified by the British Secret Service. The Dutch Institute for Military History however is in possession of the safeguarded salary administration from Surabaya. From that administration it becomes clear that Hr. Ms. K XVII left Surabaya on 28 November 1941. The submarine therefore could never have discovered on that day a Japanese fleet on its way to Pearl Harbor.

 

The way in which Creighton describes the supposed sabotage of the K XVII and his connections with Ian Fleming make one think of a series of popular action movies. The letters JB of the title of his book mean James Bond. The author seems to provide his own fantastic filling in of unexplained moments of history. There is nothing wrong with that if the stories are being presented to be fictitious. Creighton however hard headedly states that everything happened as he describes it.

 

some plus to tuccy..

Edited by migg1973
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Alpha Tester
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Well, I can think of one other great author who has made a grand living out of stories like this. Unfortunately, he is no longer among us.

 

Cookies for he who can guess who I mean :D...

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Weekend Tester
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Tom Clancy

 

Daaaaaaahhhh! *w*

Sadly he isn't from this world anymore.

 

 

 

I really doubt this story is true. The conspiration theory can make conspiration about everything...

 

And Tuccy, I have an answer why they could time travel like that.

 

45040573.jpg

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