Manuel Topedobomber drop/ minimum Rang Balance

[Stahlgesang]

Hi,

 

I see so often then trained CV-Player set manuel topedobomber drops and then the topedos are so close that noone can do anything aganist it, so you get 3-4 topedohits. Maybe in the higher tiers you have better AA, so you can keep them a bit more away, but in tier 3-5 it is terrible.

The only thing to balance that a bit more fair is to enlarge the minimum Range for topedos, at least for +150 %, or buff the AA.

 

Made 2 game for today and saw 6 so close drops... i had enough for today... that really beats the fun out of the game.

[Loran_Battle]

Did you start turning when you saw the torps arm, or when they hit the water or when you saw the planes. Cause you need to look out and dodge the planes, not the torps themselves.

 

Otherwise I suggest you use the search function, as we have about 4 threads about this already.

[Damathacus]

Only thing needed is to add some kind of cooldown to manual drop when you cancel manual drop, this would stop CVs from canceling their drops at the last second after their target has started to turn into their planes and then immediately ordering a new drop and catching their targets broadside before they have time to turn again because of rudder shift time.

[chaplainDMK]

Only thing needed is to add some kind of cooldown to manual drop when you cancel manual drop, this would stop CVs from canceling their drops at the last second after their target has started to turn into their planes and then immediately ordering a new drop and catching their targets broadside before they have time to turn again because of rudder shift time.

 

+ a proper attack animation

[Multispec]

Only thing needed is to add some kind of cooldown to manual drop when you cancel manual drop, this would stop CVs from canceling their drops at the last second after their target has started to turn into their planes and then immediately ordering a new drop and catching their targets broadside before they have time to turn again because of rudder shift time.

 

There is a "point of no return" for manual drops.

 

[Hauptbahnhof]

It's pretty easy to dodge torpedoes in low tier if you pay attention and know what your doing. Ships are smaller and turn quicker, while airplanes are slower and take longer time to reach you.

 

 

The Carrier player needs to "lock in" where the drop will happen around 8-10 seconds before torpedoes hit you, so you have plenty of time and it's hard to hit a ship that knows how to evade.

 

If you don't believe me I suggest you try it out for yourself, give the CV a test and show us how easy it is to dominate. I have experience from playing all classes, have you?

[Sub_Eleven]

Only thing needed is to add some kind of cooldown to manual drop when you cancel manual drop, this would stop CVs from canceling their drops at the last second after their target has started to turn into their planes and then immediately ordering a new drop and catching their targets broadside before they have time to turn again because of rudder shift time.

 

This. Or fix ufo movement. The ability to relocate a squadron at those speeds and angles make it very, very hard to dodge if the cv driver is remotely decent. Not even destroyers can keep up with those turns, anything larger and slower is guaranteed to take some torpedoes.

 

 

There is a "point of no return" for manual drops.

 

 

As long as the planes don't cross it, they can change attack vector an unlimited ammount of times while still being almost on top of you. Yes it gives AA more time to shoot at em, but some ships have poor AA to begin with (think lower tier bb's, and destroyers in general).

[Multispec]

 

As long as the planes don't cross it, they can change attack vector an unlimited ammount of times while still being almost on top of you. Yes it gives AA more time to shoot at em, but some ships have poor AA to begin with (think lower tier bb's, and destroyers in general).

 

And you try doing that in a bit higher tier than 4 or 5 with a CV and see how many torps you drop before you lost all wings.

[Sub_Eleven]

 

 

And you try doing that in a bit higher tier than 4 or 5 with a CV and see how many torps you drop before you lost all wings.

 

Let me quote myself:

 

 

As long as the planes don't cross it, they can change attack vector an unlimited ammount of times while still being almost on top of you. Yes it gives AA more time to shoot at em, but some ships have poor AA to begin with (think lower tier bb's, and destroyers in general).

 

 

[havaduck]

AA should be buffed and extended to a degree that a cv can not afford to shuffle his planes around in the AA bubble until he can lay down a pattern you cant escape. This would encourage decisions about either more distant drops so to not suffer plane loss (on weak AA targets) or suicide runs (on heavy AA fortresses that need to go in a few attacks as possible) with higher avg. damage output but a steep cost in planes.

 

 

And also the reserves ..... shot down 25 planes from a t7 carrier in a t7 IJN cruiser while hunting and finally succumbing to his planes ..... hurts him, right? nope he got 70+, so you have to shoot 3 times as much down to hurt him -> lol. And even then, his paint still did'nt get scratched ....

 

 

And this crap also needs fixing:

 

How the [edited]are you supposed to know what comming is  ....

 

a. a auto-drop - aka pattern

b. a manual drop - aka you're screwed pattern

c. glitch fuckfest.

[69thBuLLeT]

Did you start turning when you saw the torps arm, or when they hit the water or when you saw the planes. Cause you need to look out and dodge the planes, not the torps themselves.

 

Otherwise I suggest you use the search function, as we have about 4 threads about this already.

 

Unless you're in a Wyoming. You could have started turning when the carrier launched it's planes and it still wouldn't be enough.

 

I seem to remember the New York having significantly better AA. Can't wait.

[YukiEiriKun]

Did you start turning when you saw the torps arm, or when they hit the water or when you saw the planes. Cause you need to look out and dodge the planes, not the torps themselves.

Otherwise I suggest you use the search function, as we have about 4 threads about this already.

Well.. You seem to be very consistent player with all classes so I ask you some help;

 

At what point/distance you are supposed to start the turn when TB's are closing in?

See, my problem here is that either I turn too early and CV just cancels and re-routes the TB's and since he knows where I am turning, has an nice open side to aim them at.

OR if I wait until the vague drop animation before I start to turn, the torps appears right next to me and BOOM.

 

What is the sweet-spot? At what distance should I start the turn?

[Seinta]

AA should be buffed and extended to a degree that a cv can not afford to shuffle his planes around in the AA bubble until he can lay down a pattern you cant escape. This would encourage decisions about either more distant drops so to not suffer plane loss (on weak AA targets) or suicide runs (on heavy AA fortresses that need to go in a few attacks as possible) with higher avg. damage output but a steep cost in planes.

 

 

And also the reserves ..... shot down 25 planes from a t7 carrier in a t7 IJN cruiser while hunting and finally succumbing to his planes ..... hurts him, right? nope he got 70+, so you have to shoot 3 times as much down to hurt him -> lol. And even then, his paint still did'nt get scratched ....

 

 

And this crap also needs fixing:

 

How the [edited]are you supposed to know what comming is  ....

 

a. a auto-drop - aka pattern

b. a manual drop - aka you're screwed pattern

c. glitch fuckfest.

 

US BBs (T7+)  and US Cruisers are AA fortresses and that forces CVs to pick targets better.

 

25 planes .....1/3rd of his strike power. High tier AA is fine as it is, low tier balance is the problem.

 

Also I agree they need to fix the bugged auto drops. 

[viceadmiral123]

Stop teaching noobs how to dodge pls.

 

[havaduck]

 

 

25 planes .....1/3rd of his strike power. High tier AA is fine as it is, low tier balance is the problem.

 

Nope, and thats the problem ..... its 1/3 of his loadout. Until he  has suffered enough losses to be unable to replace them, his strike power is not diminished by a single bit.

 

Strikepower is (simplified, did not differentiate between tb and dive-b): f(x)=72-x-y

x is the # of planes shot down, y is the amount requiered to fill all squadrons..... so as long as f(x) is >= 0, his strikepower is not reduced by one bit.

Usually a CV looses 5 planes there and 10 again elswhere and finishes the game with > 50% hangar capacity -> to weak AA.

 

Also, do you know how much torpedoes you have to eat to shoot down 25 planes, whilst not being able to fight back at all? So another possible course of action is to make the cv loose hp with every plane shotdown - so the sum of his hangar capacity equals 100 % hp, or maybe  if he cant have his squadrons at least 50 % equiped with planes its 100 % and game over - thats finetuning and up for testing.

 

This fixes also the no-reward-for-plane-shotdown problem and the cv-credit-press problem (that one partially but at least somewhat ...), as every plane shotdown is  damage dealt against the cv for whoever shot it down, and every plane lost is cost for the cv. Also, if you finally manage to get within range of a cv, you need fewer shots to sink him  AND for last  give people a feeling of actually being able to fight back ...

[Hauptbahnhof]

 

 

Nope, and thats the problem ..... its 1/3 of his loadout. Until he  has suffered enough losses to be unable to replace them, his strike power is not diminished by a single bit.

 

 

So Carrier sends 12 torpedo bombers my way, I shot down 4 before they drop their torpedoes, and 4 after.

 

Please inform me how does this not diminish his stike power by 1/3:ed???

 

 

If you catch the bombers with either your floatplane fighter or the AA ability that further diminishes the strike power since torpedoes are spread out and super easy to dodge.

 

If you are actively maneuvering into the plane squadrons then the CV driver will start to panic when the planes start falling out of the sky one by one and is more likely to either give up and target someone else or be forced to make a bad drop from a worse angle that is easier to dodge.

[Seinta]

 

 

Nope, and thats the problem ..... its 1/3 of his loadout. Until he  has suffered enough losses to be unable to replace them, his strike power is not diminished by a single bit.

 

Strikepower is (simplified, did not differentiate between tb and dive-b): f(x)=72-x-y

x is the # of planes shot down, y is the amount requiered to fill all squadrons..... so as long as f(x) is positive, his strikepower is not reduced by one bit.

Usually a CV looses 5 planes there and 10 again elswhere and finishes the game with > 50% hangar capacity -> to weak AA.

 

Also, do you know how much torpedoes you have to eat to shoot down 25 planes, whilst not being able to fight back at all? So another possible course of action is to make the cv loose hp with every plane shotdown - so the sum of his hangar capacity equals 100 % hp, or maybe  if he cant have his squadrons at least 50 % equiped with planes its 100 % and game over - thats finetuning and up for testing.

 

This fixes also the no-reward-for-plane-shotdown problem and the cv-credit-press problem (that one partially but at least somewhat ...), as every plane shotdown is  damage dealt against the cv for whoever shot it down, and every plane lost is cost for the cv. Also, if you finally manage to get within range of a cv, you need fewer shots to sink him  AND for last  give people a feeling of actually being able to fight back ...

 

You have a set amount of planes! If you play stupid you will end up with no means of attacking a ship other than ramming him.

I don't know what you think about those 25 planes, but for me to lose 25 planes to 1 Cruiser is devastating, as for fighting back, YOU ARE. There is a reason that CVs have finite amount of planes, AA strong ships DIRECTLY affect the striking power of a CV. Name me a ship that can lose it's means of doing damage.

 

High tier CV gameplay is that of a vulture, because if you throw alot of poop at a wall, you will run out of poop before you break down the wall.

 

Every ship is passively fighting back CVs, US Cruisers and fighter squadrons can actively fight back. Teamwork fights back damn well.

40 planes = same tier ship kill. I don't see how a plane kill will hurt a ship, just makes no sense.

[Naurulokki94]

For me one of the most annoying thing in this game is the torp planes minimum drop distance. So much joke compared reality during WW2. Google how far away ie. Bismarc was torpedoed. They literally didn't fly next to a BB then drop torps from 50-100 meters away. To have even remotely realistic battle enviroment this minimum drop distance should be increased along with the ability to change manual torp targetting at very late of the "torp run".

[havaduck]

Please inform me how does this not diminish his stike power by 1/3:ed???

 

(also: paniced planes don't become auto-drops - yes spread increases but they are still fairly close and usually you cant completely evade a criss-cross pattern of 3 Squadrons. The floatplane does panic at max one squadron - so 2 remain undisturbe - more then enough for cetain hits ..... only aa barage can really save you)

 

Very well, Battle Starts:

 

First you see 3 Torpedoe Bomber AND 3 Divebomber Squadrons (100 % strikepower) comming your way. You trigger AA-Barrage. Carrier waits for it to end ... but I'll be generous lets say CV attack anyway:

You shoot down 1 plane incomming and maybe another one maybe even two outgoing of the focused squadron. The unfucused squadrons loose a total ... lets be genorous and say even additional 8 planes.

Lets say 2 less incomming torpedoes, means just more narrow (in total) pattern but usually remains undodgeable -> you still eat usually one torpedo, but its a matter of luck and exact pattern layout and angle.

 

You eat your single torpedoe-lunch. Planes flyback. Squadrons take 11 planes out of the reserve and come back.

 

3 TB + 3 DB incomming - both fully stocked with airplanes (100 % strikepower incomming). You dont have AA barage. You shoot down a total of lets say 4 planes and again eat torpedoes.

 

planes fly home, take reserves from the hangar and are again headed towards you: 3 TB, 3 DB, fully stocked squadrons -> incomming Strikepower 100%.

Hangar stockpile + flying ones at that moment: 72 (default amount) - 15 (shot down) = 58 remaining.

 

Start noticing a patern there? Do the math. For the Hiryu  its f(x)=36-x-y for tb and again f(x)=36-x-y (x and y same as above) for divebombers - to be precise this time. You have to notice exaclty if the shot down plane was a DB or TB and as long that f(x)=>0 for that group, the CVs striking power is not reduced.

 

 

 

Name me a ship that can lose it's means of doing damage.

 

EVERY SINGLE ONE. Every ship can and will loose turrets, torpedoes and secondary/AA guns - they have to go into harms way after all

(well maybe except IJN DDs and some USN ones but the have their own problem with unkillable planes and fragile modules when divebombed).

Its not uncommon for a IJN cruiser to have their torpedoes permanently destroyed (not even mentioning DDs), and since the turrets have so little armor and even HE Grenades are armor piercing (1/6 of their diameter) you also get your turrets permanently destroyed. The difference is ..... the "regular" ships can't go to their hangers and deploy their offensive armament 2-3 times completely.

Ask for example a Atlanta players with how much turrets the usually finish a game, thats what you call diminished strikepower. 

Infact shooting down incomming planes and getting turrets disabled (not destroyed) has more in common - at least in means of loosing damag potential .... exept the CV not loosing health that way...

 

And even so ...... 25 dead planes which is 1/3 of the t7 IJN CV hanger WILL kill something. I offer anytime 1/3 of my Gun/Torpedoe arnament (even if I can't replace it) on whichever ship I am using to have the enemy CV dead, without them being able to do anything about it or scratching my hp and the exp and credits for that on my account.

[Seinta]

For me one of the most annoying thing in this game is the torp planes minimum drop distance. So much joke compared reality during WW2. Google how far away ie. Bismarc was torpedoed. They literally didn't fly next to a BB then drop torps from 50-100 meters away. To have even remotely realistic battle enviroment this minimum drop distance should be increased along with the ability to change manual torp targetting at very late of the "torp run".

 

A skilled player can drop the torps so close, that they active right before impact and once the attack starts, you cannot change anything. All those corrections happen before an attack is started.

 

 EVERY SINGLE ONE. Every ship can and will loose turrets, torpedoes and secondary/AA guns - they have to go into harms way after all

 

I am yet to lose ALL MY GUNS if i play badly, more often I just die.

Over 300 games, I am have a game where I lose my guns. The best was 2 turrets on my New Mexico, but that harly stopped me from sinking 1 Cruiser before I died. 

 

Also you are mistaking a Disabled gun with Destroyed gun, 15-30 seconds and the gun is operational, while a plane is gone for good.

 

[tajj7]

 

+ a proper attack animation

 

Yep realistic attack flight model for torpedo bombers would solve the problem, it's the ability to quickly change and then re-start the attack with the torp bombers behaving like tie fighters in zero gravity that is the issue, they spin on the spot.

 

They are large, slow heavily laden planes that were not known for their agility and torpedo runs had to be calculated long andlow approaches.

 

But considering WOWP it's not surprising that WG are terrible at plane physics.

 

Aware players should be able to see the planes coming adjust their course and thus avoid, if the CV player cancels then we go back to the start and the TBs have to take time to re-set and start another attack. 

 

[havaduck]

I am yet to lose ALL MY GUNS if i play badly, more often I just die.

Over 300 games, I am have a game where I lose my guns. The best was 2 turrets on my New Mexico, but that harly stopped me from sinking 1 Cruiser before I died. 

 

Also you are mistaking a Disabled gun with Destroyed gun, 15-30 seconds and the gun is operational, while a plane is gone for good.

 

 

Nope, just math again. Loosing a turret on IJN heavy cruiser is usually a 2,5k-ish blow, that (alone) is not going to sink any of them, so in theory no problem at all.

And yes had more than a few games where my turrets that were facing the enemy got completely destroyed:

 

eg. the two front turrets of an Aoba - because of Cleavland ofc. he and 1/6 penetration of 6" shell means 1" penetration against 1" turret armor .... so its very common ....and dont get me started on the torpedoe armament.

 

And yes the plane is gone, but thanks to the vast reserve its more the loss of damage potential if the plane was attacking and irrelevant if the plane was heading home, and thats the reason I compared a temporarly knocked out turret with a shot down plane (loss of damage potential).

 

And just to keep the balance in the discussion: How often do you see a high tier carrier expand his whole 72-136 (!) aircraft completely to ships AA-Guns before either winning or being sunk. How often even 50 %?

I think thats only a fair question to ask, and the answer also comes down to theoretically possible.

 

I do study the end result screen and the (high tier) plane loses are rarely above 1/3 hangar capacity, but if so exclusivly due do higher tier and/or double enemy and/or fighter cv which brings us to "CV are only countered by CV" ... but this was a regular ships AA discussion.

 

(on a note: low tier plane losses are usually more severe in terms of relative hangar capacity, on the other hand low tier AA is between inexitent or a complete joke and there is also no aa barrage. Mid tier is obviously middle the road between the two ...)

[Szatanshow]

The only real problem is manual drop range its way to close and when it happens and it happens into every battle its no point to even bother to start turning - i personaly just exit to port at that point - its not fun and if game is not fun or flustrating by one thing or another = no income for wg from that players and sooner or later ppl will start looking for other games - and i dont want this game to end like WoWp\

So they should - remove manual drop or make range way bigger

[Saipan_2501]

The only real problem is manual drop range its way to close and when it happens and it happens into every battle its no point to even bother to start turning - i personaly just exit to port at that point - its not fun and if game is not fun or flustrating by one thing or another = no income for wg from that players and sooner or later ppl will start looking for other games - and i dont want this game to end like WoWp\

So they should - remove manual drop or make range way bigger

 

Totally agree, just got torped in my first game of the day, driving my atagi, fighter was airborne, AA crew used as soon as the planes were approaching, started to turn into the flight path to lessen the angle, the attacking planes turned on a dime, dropped there torps from less than 1k away from me, absolute no chance to dodge at all, and boom, 3 torps straight in the side, only hit 1 of his attacking aircraft. Totally screwed up is the attacking range and physics of the torp bombers at the minute, needs some major works as its just plain stupid at the minute.

[DtXpwnz]

... that noone can do anything aganist it, so you get 3-4 topedohits...

Stopped reading there. Next topic will be about pink elephants.