Economy, lets do some math.

[Boevebeest]

I know I have said this already in other threads, but I think it is worth it to make it a own thread.

 

Since 0.4.0 there is a lot to do about the economics in WoWS.

 

We compare it to WoT and as I don't like to compare the games, they want unified accounts so it has to be in sink with each other.

 

A lot of us do have a feeling that there is something out of sink but not sure what.

Thinking and reading a lot about it I went back to where WG goes, hard numbers. So here is my conclusion.

 

A lot of people say that you earn a lot more xp in WoWS than you do in WoT.

That depends on how you look at it.

Per battle you earn more in WoWS, but does this mean you grind faster? In other words, is the higher xp cost for modules and ship grind justified?

Do you actually get more xp and credits?

 

I'll take my own accounts as example because they are pretty close to each other in stats and overall performance.

 

WoWS.

WR of 53.26%

Kill dead ratio of 1.80

Average xp of 1201

 

WoT

WR of 53.16%

Kill dead ratio of 1.54

Average xp of 699

 

It looks like I do better in WoWS.

But now we include the time factor.

 

I read somewhere that the average battle in WoWS takes around 15 minutes and in WoT around 7 minutes.

So lets take a look at average xp per hour.

 

4 games a hour in WoWS you on average earn 4x1201xp=4804 xp an hour.

In WoT you play 8 games an hour so 8x699xp=5592xp an hour.

 

So where you earn more per battle you earn a lot less per hour.

 

Now we take a look at the grind in both games.

I choose a tier 5 BB and HT to compare.

 

Kong tier 5 BB.

Unlocking all modules costs 19000 xp.

19000 divided by 4804 = 3.9 hours to unlock it all. 

 

KV-1S

Unlocking all modules costs 27880 xp. But, and this is important, unlike in WoWS you already have a lot of the modules unlocked on previous tanks. So if you take this into account it only costs 18450 xp to unlock all modules on the tank.

18450 divided by 5592 = 3.2 hours to unlock it all.

 

To grind to the next ship and tank.

Unlocking the Fuso takes 47000 xp divided by 4804 = 9.8 hours

Unlocking the KV-85 takes 28800 xp divided by 5592 = 5.15 hours

 

So what does that mean.

The grind from a stock Kongo to a stock Fuso takes me 3.9+9.8= 13.7 hours.

The grind from a stock KV-1S to a stock KV-85 takes me 3.2+5.15= 8.35 hours.

 

And now lets take a look at converting free xp for gold and dubloons.

In both games the conversion rate is the same. 1 gold/dubloon for 25 xp.

 

Kongo.

Unlocking all modules costs 19000 xp

Unlocking the Fuso takes 47000 xp

If you want to convert and free xp it all 2640 dubloons= 7.92 Euro

 

KV-1S

Unlocking all modules 18450 xp to unlock all modules on the tank.

Unlocking the KV-85 takes 28800 xp

If you want to convert and free xp it all 1890 gold= 5.67 Euro.

 

And thats on the whoile tree and game the same, lets go higher tier.

 

Izumo:

Unlocking all modules costs 146000 xp

Unlocking the Yamoto takes 249000 xp

If you want to convert and free xp it all 15800 dubloons= 47.4 Euro

 

IS-8:

Unlocking all modules costs 137400 xp

Unlocking the IS-7 takes 189200 xp

If you want to convert and free xp it all 13064 gold= 39.19 Euro

 

 

This is based on average numbers.

Individually you might get different xp on mentioned ships and tanks, but I think it gives a clear oversight on the misalignment in economy.

 

 

[Rubiconn]

There are 2 variables: AVG XP and AVG time per battle, 15mins avg time per battle is pure fantasy

[Siagor]

Nice work, OP. +1

[Sub_Eleven]

Also in monopoly, when you pass "go" you get 20k? wheres my 20k?????

 

Ontopic:

 

I'm still at T7 so not sure about he higher tiers, but people say its hard to earn enouch silver to actually buy stuff? I get that you "need" a premium account to play tier 10's effectivly and for me that's perfectly fine. So far I haven't had any money issues while playing standard account, no dubloon thinghys or anything.

[Kirasa]

You should always have a mid tier creds maker in your port, or prem ships...

[LilJumpa]

Thx for the work, but you actually have to add the signal flags to that. (+50% XP)

 

10/day are manageable

[Marauder9]

You should always have a mid tier creds maker in your port, or prem ships...

 

i agree i have just bought the mogami and boy that is expensive if you play stock with 13 and a bit range on your guns you got to get close and then you get punished even a tier 6 aoba can out range you 

[Admiral_noodle]

Numbers numbers numbers! I guess I make creds by obsessively playing Murmansk though. I think that's the trick.

 

XP. Yea I cheat and use gold. I am whale.

[Flavio1997]

as the Op stated exp wise this game is way longer than wot, but IMHO the main problem with the economy is the cost of modules...is not possible that a  tier 9 hull upgrade cost 5 milions of credits, when the tier 10 cost 20milions. it would be like if a turret of a tier 9 tank in wot cost 1.5 milions of credits, while it cost 300k

[Userext]

These people -.- So you just ignore the fact that average exp here is higher and DB compared to gold is more effective

1 DB=1500 credit WOWS

1 gold=400 credit WOT

Minekaze average experience=1k

PzIVH(the one before nerf)=270

 

i hope you will do your research better. The only problem so far is premium ships not getting enough job done.

 

Also there is the part where new players ARE NOT unicums out of nowhere. You could be a unicum with 4k average exp at wot but that doesnt mean you will have 8k or 10k average exp here.

 

You played 10k battle at wot? Play 10k battle here at wows then you can compare them both. I dont think there is any player above 2000 games for EU yet. Could you please compare a 500 games played wot account to 500 games played wows account? 

[Userext]

Sorry steve you will be the star of this show here

http://worldoftanks.eu/community/accounts/500073587-Steve0112/

 

For wows i will give 2 examples

http://worldofwarships.eu/en/community/accounts/527168410-Aerroon/#tab=pvp/account-tab-overview-pvp

http://worldofwarships.eu/en/community/accounts/500263220-brick128/#tab=pvp/account-tab-overview-pvp

 

So steve has 295 average experience from his 525 battles

Brick has 1201 average experience from his 383 battles

Aerroon has 2367 average experience from his 419 battles

 

Should i go further deep mathmetical calculations? Or will you stop throwing ---- at wows comparing your 29.5k battle account to your fresh 383 battle account?

For curious people

http://worldoftanks.eu/community/accounts/500263220-brick128/  WOT

http://worldofwarships.eu/en/community/accounts/500263220-brick128/#tab=pvp/account-tab-overview-pvp  WOWS

 

 

Seriously guys stop this madness

[rafparis]

As i stated in other posts related, the problem is not the xp, it's the credits. In WOT i brind 9 lines and i never feeled the need to grind xp or silver, the progresion was natural, up to tier 8,,havent been higher. With a premium account, even i i was killed outright in a match, i NEVER lose silver.

In WOWs, due to the prohibitive cost of ammo and repairs begining at tier 7, you can begin to lose silver if you don't have a good match. And dont even start on the costs of ships and upgrades... And in WOT, ar higher tiers you got way more better guns, armor and HP than in WOWs, so your earning curve is getting down the higher you go in tiers. So the grind become more and more difficult. The ammo and repair costs are the biggest problem i think. Guns remain the same, but the repairs cost almost double each tier? The ship have a measely 1000 hp more, but the repair/maintenance costs double also? Logicaly, there is no point playing higher tiers now, and it creates a toxic meta where everyone is affraid of taking damage, even on premium account.

[Boevebeest]

There are 2 variables: AVG XP and AVG time per battle, 15mins avg time per battle is pure fantasy

 

Like I say in my post, I read somewhere it is average 15 minutes. If that exactly right It is everybodoy's guess but a good guess I think.

Fact is that average games in WoWS take much longer. so even if the average battle takes 10 minutes, it is still enough to compensate for the difference in xp per hour by a mile.

Also in monopoly, when you pass "go" you get 20k? wheres my 20k?????

 

Ontopic:

 

I'm still at T7 so not sure about he higher tiers, but people say its hard to earn enouch silver to actually buy stuff? I get that you "need" a premium account to play tier 10's effectivly and for me that's perfectly fine. So far I haven't had any money issues while playing standard account, no dubloon thinghys or anything.

 

You should always have a mid tier creds maker in your port, or prem ships...

 

I didn't take into account the silver because there is no public registration what people earn so even harder to make a fact based assessment for it.

Still if you use premium ships or account, it changes nothing about the imbalance between the two games in xp earning and grinding.

Also you still pay a lot more to free xp ships, because the need more free xp that is the same price as in wot.

 

And if you played WoT or any WG game, we all know top tier requires premium ships/account or low/mid tier money grinder.

That is the WG business model. like it or not, nothing new and something we need to accept.

 

Thx for the work, but you actually have to add the signal flags to that. (+50% XP)

 

10/day are manageable

These are a bonus, just like the much better weekend events and daily x2(wows x1.5) in WoT.

Not everybody scores or can afford flags.

XP. Yea I cheat and use gold. I am whale.

That is not cheating.

People like you make it possible for non paying players to keep playing for free.

You don't buy a advantage, you save yourself a horrible grind. If you can afford it, good for you.

 

No reason to excuse yourself for using your money to make the grind less hard for yourself.

These people -.- So you just ignore the fact that average exp here is higher and DB compared to gold is more effective

1 DB=1500 credit WOWS

1 gold=400 credit WOT

Minekaze average experience=1k

PzIVH(the one before nerf)=270

 

i hope you will do your research better. The only problem so far is premium ships not getting enough job done.

 

Also there is the part where new players ARE NOT unicums out of nowhere. You could be a unicum with 4k average exp at wot but that doesnt mean you will have 8k or 10k average exp here.

 

You played 10k battle at wot? Play 10k battle here at wows then you can compare them both. I dont think there is any player above 2000 games for EU yet. Could you please compare a 500 games played wot account to 500 games played wows account? 

 

You again?

 

You keep crying about silver conversion.

I already agreed with you that you where right.

But that is not my point.

 

Should i go further deep mathmetical calculations? Or will you stop throwing ---- at wows comparing your 29.5k battle account to your fresh 383 battle account?

For curious people

http://worldoftanks.eu/community/accounts/500263220-brick128/  WOT

http://worldofwarships.eu/en/community/accounts/500263220-brick128/#tab=pvp/account-tab-overview-pvp  WOWS

Yes please do that, maybe I understand what you mean.

Feel free to use my stats or whatever stats suit your argument.

 

Prove to me then that the balance between the games is the same.

[LilJumpa]

Ok your last post actually made me think you're biased.

 

 

[Boevebeest]

Ok your last post actually made me think you're biased.

 

 

 

please explain?

[Userext]

Yes please do that, maybe I understand what you mean.

Feel free to use my stats or whatever stats suit your argument.

 

Prove to me then that the balance between the games is the same.

 

So you want to play?

 

To the calculate mobile!

*fancy lights and song singing math*

 

Average battle in wows takes 15 mins

Average battle in wot takes 10 mins

 

In an hour you will do 4 battles at wows and 6 battles at wot.

 

Now lets see where you can get with 500 battles in wows and in wot.

1.2k average exp 500 battles means 600k exp

if you would look at aerroon's account you can quite clearly see he has 225 battles with 3k average damage. That means with 600k exp you can get to tier 9 taiho.

 

295 average exp lets say 300 for the sake of math. that would give you 150k exp. 

If you would dare to look at WoT DB(http://www.wotdb.info/#country=usa) From tier 1 to tier 7 T71 it will require at least 175k exp at most 231k exp.

Light Tank T1 Cunningham [stock] -> Light Tank M2 Light Tank -> Light Tank M3 Stuart -> Light Tank M5 Stuart -> Medium Tank M7 -> Light Tank T21 -> Light Tank T71 [stock]
Minimum research cost:	3 053 760 127 745 (5 110)
Full research cost:	3 374 400 183 950 (7 358)
Full research cost including armament from stock to top configurations
Required armament:	247 000 42 800 (1 712)
Full armament:	309 000 48 600 (1 944)

 

 

Do i need to make any more calculation? Do you like watching me dance between the numbers?

 

 

[Userext]

from ltracktor to maus you will need 

Light Tank Leichttraktor [stock] -> Light Tank Pz.Kpfw. 35 (t) -> Light Tank Pz.Kpfw. 38 (t) -> Light Tank PzKpfw. 38 (t) n.A. -> Heavy Tank Maus
Minimum research cost:	14 688 690 666 275 (26 651)
Full research cost:	15 591 350 894 975 (35 799)
Light Tank Leichttraktor [stock] -> Light Tank Pz.Kpfw. II -> Light Tank Pz.Kpfw. III Ausf. A -> Medium Tank Pz.Kpfw. IV Ausf. A -> Medium Tank Pz.Kpfw. IV Ausf. D -> Heavy Tank Maus
Minimum research cost:	14 745 950 668 985 (26 760)
Full research cost:	15 624 440 895 130 (35 806)

 

Full research cost including armament from stock to top configurations
Required armament:	596 500 152 700 (6 108)
Full armament:	991 580 243 760 (9 751)

 

 

it requires at most 1.14M to get a Maus exp wise

It requires at most 1.4M to get a yamato exp wise.

 

Now do you understand?

[TheJezna]

What also feels a bit unfair (in addition to everything else that is problematic when playing DD's) is that a DD with 10-13k hp and with a playstyle that involves getting blown up pretty darn often it's still as expensive to repair, which may be yet another reason there are very few DD's at high tiers.

[Boevebeest]

Now lets see where you can get with 500 battles in wows and in wot.

1.2k average exp 500 battles means 600k exp

if you would look at aerroon's account you can quite clearly see he has 225 battles with 3k average damage. That means with 600k exp you can get to tier 9 taiho.

OK, to start of, my apologies to aerroon for getting dragged into this. Nothing personal nor any kind of disrespect towards you, your choice in ships and playstyle.

You are a victim getting abused by some one to make his point, again sorry.

 

aerroon's stats say the following 68.82 WR, 5.48 kill/dead, 433 battles and 2362 average xp.

On his CV's he scores the 3004 average xp in 225 battles.

 

Where the 1.2K xp per battle over 500 battles comes from I don't know.

It is not my account, nor aerroon's. So who's stats are that?

Or is it WoT stats? then again, who's stats are they? aerroon has no wot account under that name and I wish I had stats like that in wot.

295 average exp lets say 300 for the sake of math. that would give you 150k exp.

 

 

So I guess we are in WoT now.

OK, who's stats are this?

And this is a account that played 500 battles with average 300XP?

 

And I should just stop here but OK, I'll bite.

 

ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!!!!!!! really am i being trolled here?

 

You really compare a average 2300+ xp player in WoWS, with a average 300 xp player in WoT to make your point?

And what is the point you actually try to make with comparing these accounts?

If you would dare to look at WoT DB(http://www.wotdb.info/#country=usa) From tier 1 to tier 7 T71 it will require at least 175k exp at most 231k exp.

Light Tank T1 Cunningham [stock] -> Light Tank M2 Light Tank -> Light Tank M3 Stuart -> Light Tank M5 Stuart -> Medium Tank M7 -> Light Tank T21 -> Light Tank T71 [stock]
Minimum research cost:	3 053 760 127 745 (5 110)
Full research cost:	3 374 400 183 950 (7 358)
Full research cost including armament from stock to top configurations
Required armament:	247 000 42 800 (1 712)
Full armament:	309 000 48 600 (1 944)

 

 

 

OK, even if your numbers are correct here, which is arbitrary, compared to what?

 

From T1 cunningham to T71 compared to?

It really makes no sense to me.

Do i need to make any more calculation? Do you like watching me dance between the numbers?

 

Please don't, no idea what this dance is you do but it is giving me a headache.

it requires at most 1.14M to get a Maus exp wise

It requires at most 1.4M to get a yamato exp wise.

OK, you kept dancing.

 

Well, this is the first thing that actually made some kind of sense.

If the numbers are right I don't know, and after trying to make sense of these two post I have a to big a headache to check it.

Userext, on 05 August 2015 - 09:46 PM, said:

Now do you understand?

 

NO! I'm only confused.

 

 

 

[LilJumpa]

 

please explain?

 

Yes, was a little late last night I will make a longer post in the next couple of hours

[LilJumpa]

You're talking about the economy as a whole. If you want to do that you simply can't just compare one account and draw a conclusion. That doesn't really work since , in addition, this account in WoT is by no means comparable to the account in WoWs by games played, tier-average and so on.

 

Why I thought you are a little biased?

 

brick128, on 05 August 2015 - 08:56 PM, said:

There are 2 variables: AVG XP and AVG time per battle, 15mins avg time per battle is pure fantasy

 

Like I say in my post, I read somewhere it is average 15 minutes. If that exactly right It is everybodoy's guess but a good guess I think.

Fact is that average games in WoWS take much longer. so even if the average battle takes 10 minutes, it is still enough to compensate for the difference in xp per hour by a mile.

 

In your example from the first post every minute makes a huge difference because your whole calculations are based on those 2 "facts", which are taken from a single account and something you read somewhere. Not really a good foundation to judge the economy. Your answer sounds like you just want to say "it's flawed!!!" and only take the numbers which fit your argument.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

For WoT there are numerous Stats - websites around. If you really want to compare, you actually have to use Server-Stats not single players. Those are the numbers and facts on which WG makes decisions.

 

Examples:

 

The average XP on WoT-EU for players with 300+ games is somewhere around 250

 

Source:

http://wot-news.com/stat/server/eu/norm/en#server-main-7

(klick on random below the chart to get another chart)

 

heres a picture:

 

Vbaddict says it's : 274 

Note: Vbaddict only has stats from active uploaders, which ofc are more dedicated players, so I would rate the averages a little too high here

 

http://www.vbaddict.net/statistics.php?tier=0&tanktype=0&nation=0&premium=0&modeid=0&team=0&battles=1000&groupby=0&fieldname=experience&server=

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 The average Battle duration according to Vbaddict is 6:30 mins

 

http://www.vbaddict.net/statistics.php?tier=0&tanktype=0&nation=0&premium=0&modeid=0&team=0&battles=1000&groupby=0&fieldname=battle_duration&server=

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For WoWs we don't have those numbers, we only have one website for the Asia server, which has been updated yesterday:

 

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/index.html

 

There you can see the avg Xp for the different ships or ship classes, we have no information about the avg battle time though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Thlurp]

There are 2 variables: AVG XP and AVG time per battle, 15mins avg time per battle is pure fantasy

 

its the same fantasy number on WoT, where a WoT battle can last 15 mins and he counts 8 per hour and you never finish before minute 5.

 

The numbers are off if you ask me

 

and for me thats not really 'doing math', thats faking statistics, which is a common misuse in many economies

 

take some bigger averages like LilJumpa.

If you want to do math on WoWs/WoT economy, take set of the absolute average, which is hard to do on WoWs, because the sample size is just too small right now

 

edit: i myself think the grind isnt as long in WoWs as in WoT, or at least i feel that way, but thats just a personal thing

[YukiEiriKun]

Oh dear RNGesus.
"My average XP per minute is too low! Fix the economy!!" o_O;

Perhaps you guys should go play DotA or HotA or what ever those games are?

I am having fun.

I get more xp on average than I've ever had in WoT.
I'm playing better than ever in WoT.
I am having more fun playing than ever in WoT.
I have no problems with the amount of games I need to play to proceed.
And I have no problems with credit gain either.

Did I mentioned that I am having more fun during the battles?

So from my point of view, everything seems to be OK with the economy.

 

If you are having a bad time during the battles, then I can understand that "xp per minute" point of view, but otherwise .. I just don't care.
Then again, I am not that competetive player. I play to have fun and win battles but won't lose my mind if I fail. Or if my "team" fails (read; I fail but somehow turn it to be the teams fault)

[Coenraad]

People should stop comparing this to WoT..

Even if it takes longer to grind, wich i feel it does not at all, remember this game needs more time to develop new content so you need to be kept buisy untill the new content is ready.

Without a goal to grind towards the game would soon become stale.

 

As for modules, i personaly rather have hull for 20k.xp and 1mil and fc for 10k xp and 500k and next ship for 60kxp 1,5 mil then havin cheap upgrades and a big grind for lets say 85k xp with nothing hapening untill the next ship. But that is just me.

[Rubiconn]

Well, in order to somehow approach Wows economy you need to weight your variables.

For instance, when you're in a certain type of ships you don't have the very same avg time per battle, from what i saw ingame, DD/CA get sinked quicker than CV and BB.

 

Nonetheless you can also be sinked in 5 minutes, go back to port and take another ship and start battle again, increasing your XP gain per hour.

 

Another aspect which certainly need to be included in your model, it's the fact that somehow an avg player improves by playing more, increasing both AVG XP and his own survability on seas.

 

It just can't be linear as you stated in your FP, IMO at this stage we can't really do the maths properly without much datas.