do carriers need a rebalance or not?

[Thjan]

Ahoy,

 

I have been away from the game for a while and did not follow the forums. What is the current state the carriers are in? From my limited experience at T5/T6 (facing up to T8 carriers lol) they seem to be going strong / doing well in general.

 

Are they viewed as too stronk generally? If so, what is the stance of the devs on this? Any planned changes?

[Admiral_noodle]

They don't seem as OP to me as they were a few weeks ago - I think because people are learning how to counter them, and cruisers are actively giving AA support. Before I had games where carriers dominated. Not had one of those in a while, but 2v1 carriers is still challenging.

[Loran_Battle]

Most problems arise from bad mm and the fact that a lot of players don't know how to handle them.

 

For example: I just played the Ryujo and was able to torp a Cleveland. He never engaged his AA ability, nor did he try to evade. If he had done either I would've lost near all my planes (I have done this myself often enough in my own Cleveland). He did have his plane up, but it didn't attack me. So he probably didn't have my squadrons targetted either.

 

So my stance is that it is mostly a skill problem. There are a few minor imbalances, like the loadouts and the balance between IJN/USN CVs and such. (again MM is important here).

[Pawndemonium]

In their current form they just feel unfinished.

While they offer different gameplay compared to other classes, their mechanics are just too binary.

 

AA is a dull role, which consists of minor mind games, and clicking on targets, preventing to be available for more engaging objectives. Although it's still an important task, it just takes ships out of the battle.

Fighters are pretty much in the same spot, you just click on stuff, and hope to intercept targets.

Tier progression is in an utterly bad spot, mocking everything else WoWs stands for, ships of lower tiers are still competitive, while planes are just heavily outclassed by higher tiers.

Some ships (slow rudder shift+large turning radius) suffer too much, even if they react 12 seconds in advance, as in those cases there is still only a single solution for maximum damage.

 

Yeah, t's still a Beta, things will get balanced out, but I hope carriers get worked on, in their current form they just don't fit into WoWs imo. 0.4.1 might be a good start (rumours), I just hope it won't end there... .p

[ttchip]

They don't seem as OP to me as they were a few weeks ago - I think because people are learning how to counter them, and cruisers are actively giving AA support. Before I had games where carriers dominated. Not had one of those in a while, but 2v1 carriers is still challenging.

 

It's not just the AA. You're now encountering the wave of potato carrier drivers. Most of the early adopters are now terrorizing top tiers.

[Faolchu]

Yeah you'll find good carrier players at tier9 & 10 getting 2.4-2.8k games as a matter of course with 60-70% win ratios. Then you'll be told that everything is fine with them .

 

I wouldn't say anything 'bad' about them or the thread will just descend into "they're OP" and "L2P" comments.

[Atris2nd]

I'm finding that in high tier games, ships moving together and cruisers AA-screening for BBs(Who already have good AA values) takes care of carriers efficiently. All kind of depends on the competence of your allies. An isolated ship, no matter how good it's dodging, is easy prey when 3 torpedo bomber groups come to wreck it's face.

[BlueMoon51]

I play Battleships almost exclusively, so I have no great love for Carriers. However, to me this issue WGing have is that they have to make the class playable relevant and interesting to people that are playing it. Speaking for myself(having not played it since beta)I didn't enjoy it micro managing lots of little place holders just didn't work for me and I know many others feel the same way(I'm not saying WGing should change because I dont like it!!!)but the fact that it has limited appeal is an issue for them. In terms of playability it needs to me simple enough that people can pick it up but not simple enough that those that are good can dominate games, clearly as WG themselves admit they got the balance wrong with World of Warplanes. All that being said I don't think a nerf is in order in my view the way forward is to make them more relevant in other ways right now it seems to me that the single focus of Carrier play is the strike role simply by rewarding air superiority(more xp for carriers shooting down enemy planes)and scouting maps(don't forget that Midway was won largely due to the fact that the USN knew the location of the IJN fleet first)points for damage caused by spotting it would change the whole mindset and not only help the game but I think would make the game more interesting for CV players.

[CactuarLOL]

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/18204-carriers-are-op-battleships-are-op-cruisers-are-op-destroyers-are-op/page__st__40__p__333354#entry333354

[Demigur]

Yes...

[Gloris]

Most problems arise from bad mm and the fact that a lot of players don't know how to handle them.

 

For example: I just played the Ryujo and was able to torp a Cleveland. He never engaged his AA ability, nor did he try to evade. If he had done either I would've lost near all my planes (I have done this myself often enough in my own Cleveland). He did have his plane up, but it didn't attack me. So he probably didn't have my squadrons targetted either.

 

So my stance is that it is mostly a skill problem. There are a few minor imbalances, like the loadouts and the balance between IJN/USN CVs and such. (again MM is important here).

 

While i will not deny that some players are absolute potatoes that do not dodge, this whole "People don't know how to play against it" is an easy excuse.

 

If you played WoT you know that there it was/is used as the favorite excuse when something is broken.

Old Kv-1s? People just don't know how to play against it

Pre 8,6 games with 10+ arty per side? People just don't know how to play against it

Waffenträger E-100 with 6 shots in the clip and laser accuracy on the move? People just don't know how to play against it

 

And again i will not deny that Battleship/cruiser/destroyer captains still have a lot to learn, but the same can be said about Carriers, i see it on myself, when i started i was barely able to hit a BB, but now i can usually hit Cruisers, and even managed to sink a Gremyashchy that was actively dodging my planes and going Zig-Zag. 

When the carrier driver reaches a certain skill level, there is not much you can do in a lot of the not so fast ships.

It becomes less of a "Am i better then him so i can defeat him" and  more of a "Will he screw up so i might survive" which is totally stupid imho.

[Loran_Battle]

 

While i will not deny that some players are absolute potatoes that do not dodge, this whole "People don't know how to play against it" is an easy excuse.

 

If you played WoT you know that there it was/is used as the favorite excuse when something is broken.

Old Kv-1s? People just don't know how to play against it

Pre 8,6 games with 10+ arty per side? People just don't know how to play against it

Waffenträger E-100 with 6 shots in the clip and laser accuracy on the move? People just don't know how to play against it

 

And again i will not deny that Battleship/cruiser/destroyer captains still have a lot to learn, but the same can be said about Carriers, i see it on myself, when i started i was barely able to hit a BB, but now i can usually hit Cruisers, and even managed to sink a Gremyashchy that was actively dodging my planes and going Zig-Zag. 

When the carrier driver reaches a certain skill level, there is not much you can do in a lot of the not so fast ships.

It becomes less of a "Am i better then him so i can defeat him" and  more of a "Will he screw up so i might survive" which is totally stupid imho.

 

I'm just really afraid WG will just make this game so utterly simple to play that it will not be any fun anymore. (like removing the manual drop, so you just click once every 3 minutes).

I've stated before that on low tiers the AA of ships could be improved to make players at least feel they have more of a chance.

 

But most of the CV whine I hear is full of things that can't happen. Like 3 USN TB squads at tier 5 or some such. Or that it is impossible to dodge torps in a destroyer or cruiser. Or that cruisers cannot do anything. Or that Cleveland AA does nothing to planes (yes I read that somewhere).

That is why I'm so aggressive in defending CVs. Every thread about it just gets out  of control, because a lot of players won't be happy untill CVs are completely removed. We just need some small rebalances (remove strike loadout for IJN CVs for example).

 

But again: I don't want this thread to spiral out of control again, so I won't post more about it.

[snipershot]

Yes and no. Yes, the mm needs to desist from pitting teams without carriers against teams with. No, other than the skewed delay demonstrated by a player base with very few t10s, a t10 cv versus another t10 is fair game and about who plays better. The imbalance between higher and lower tier cv's i expect to see balanced before game goes 'live'. Currently higher tier beats lower tier, at least thats my subjective perspective, and its less about player skill. It is wg's way with this 'tier spread' system, and ive never been a big fan. They reduced tier spread over the life of wot, and i would like them to implement such changes in wows sooner rather than later. As pretty much every bottom tier game i played in wot i blame for burning me out of that game.

Reducing tier spread will make games 'fairer', and as a lifelong online pvper, the most level playing field possible is always appreciated.

Shorter q times - more bottom tier games versus

Longer q times - more mid/top tier games.

 

Dodging cv attacks is a learned skill, adapt or die. Only arty class i know where you can shoot down their 'shells'.

[vildemort]

I'm not super experienced playing CV and currently driving the Impotentence but what I have learned so far while trying to grind through with best of my abilities is to feel mentally exhausted after every match from trying to keep all the planes utilized. It is constant observation of enemy CAs and Fighters and keeping track of them all the time so I can steer my bombers to safely or retreat if necessary. Or with your fighters, trying to stop enemy derpedo bomber squadrons coming to sink you when there is big enough hole in the defences.

 

That said, I have to admit that I'm not the best multitasker and I get really easily distracted. I have driven my CV straight towards enemy attack force because I didn't realize that that flank was already lost few minutes ago. And as it was already mentioned, people are quickly learning how to keep safe from CVs.

 

Bottom line, I think CVs are in balanced enough as they are with the exception when matchmaker puts different tier CVs on opposing team. My first match with Impotentence was against Tier VII Ranger, and he ran through my fighters like butter, bombed and derpedoed me and so only few shots were needed from the enemy Omaha to finish me off.

[Broevaharo]

There are still issues at tier 5 with a full strike IJN CV but at tier 6,7 and 8 the gameplay seems quite balanced to me, there are good AA cruisers that can really screw an attack up and I see more people grouping up to make really effective AA screens.

I'm not above tier 8 in the CV's so can't comment on the gameplay on tier 9 and 10

[Admiral_noodle]

 

It's not just the AA. You're now encountering the wave of potato carrier drivers. Most of the early adopters are now terrorizing top tiers.

 

Potato carrier drivers made my day. And true I have seen a few. Topping the closest target, not scouting, poor drops...

[anonym_hqO9wrVAEQYQ]

The constant 2 CV's a side I seem to be getting all the time is crap. Its been like it for 3 nights now. This needs sorting ASAP as its getting to the stage where I am losing the will to live with this game. I had 1 game last night that didn't have any CV's and it was great. The rest were just dodge planes and UFO torp drops all night.

Not fun. I got took out in one game inside 4 minutes with my Kongo after 3 wings of UFO's dropped their torps perfectly and nailed me. Nothing I could do . In fact the CV ended up with 5 kills in that game and was top scorer. To say its boring now is an understatement.

 

The only plus point is I now have the Cleveland again so will go hunting planes and CV's like I did in CBT. But that doesn't alter the fact that 2 CV's a side is just shite.

[ttchip]

I went out and tried my newly acquired Des Moines - the two matches I had went terribly badly - and top tiers seem to exist for the sole purpose of giving platooned up Midways and Hakuryus Confederate and High Caliber medals. It doesn't really matter what the rest of the team does as the rest is inevitably going to be tier 8s and a lone tier 10 CA with the occasional tier 9 CA support stands absolutely no hope of doing anything against them.

 

Screw this. Top tiers ain't fun if you're thrown into the grinder that is a tier 10 CV - especially if your repairs are 250k + ammo and consumables.

[viceadmiral123]

The true strength of carriers is strategic play and ability to choose your target on the map. Planes drop like flies from AA defenses. Most complains seem to come from BB players that separate from main fleet and don't have good map awareness.

[Admiral_noodle]

Well tonight I got left behind in Kongo and took the full brunt of torpedo bombers. Knew it was coming not a lot I could do. The player was good. He dive bombed me first to set fire, hoping I would repair. I didn't because I could see his two squadrons of toro planes behind.

 

I turned wildly and he just kept waiting till he was lined up. Then I turned hard the other way and stopped as hard as I could but it's a BB. Took two Torps and half my HP. Fixed myself up to 2/3 and went on with the game but...

 

I thought Kongo had good AA? I shot none of those planes down and he was dawdling forever.

 

CVs I don't think are overpowered, but I do think once you've lined up for a drop you shouldn't be able to abort and immediately line up again. There should be a circling cool down. That would make it require even more skill as you couldn't keep readjusting

 

I played a few carriers in OBT and I was rubbish. Still managed to manual drop though so it's too easy

[C04L]

i managed a tier 6 or 7 IJN cv in cbt i think, im going USN this time, however im finding it hard to level up a 5 from just killing planes having the option of having 1fgtr 1db 1tb takes a long time, 1tb and 2db is useless unless you have a good helpfull team to kill their fighters or are the only cv in the match.

 

plane kills for cv's should carry more xp imo to help balance out the lvling compared to IJN

 

is just my opinion tho

[DigitalMan16]

YES,PERIOD!

[anonym_hqO9wrVAEQYQ]

Give planes a bigger turning circle when loaded, give them a range timer,  give the planes  longer torp run both dropping and releasing,  Buff the close range AA on all ships so they can still drop close but will get more shot down, make CV's visible when launching and recovering planes, make CV's have to be on the move and drive in straight lines when landing and launching planes and finally drop the number of CV's down to 1 a game.  Then add in a no Cv match mode.

 

This should about sort it

[X3notron]

people should learn learn how to counter a carrier and not whine for all they cant handle!

BB SHOULD NOT GO ALONE 

Give planes a bigger turning circle when loaded, give them a range timer,  give the planes  longer torp run both dropping and releasing,  Buff the close range AA on all ships so they can still drop close but will get more shot down, make CV's visible when launching and recovering planes, make CV's have to be on the move and drive in straight lines when landing and launching planes and finally drop the number of CV's down to 1 a game.  Then add in a no Cv match mode.

 

This should about sort it

 

no cv match mode? big nope!

The true strength of carriers is strategic play and ability to choose your target on the map. Planes drop like flies from AA defenses. Most complains seem to come from BB players that separate from main fleet and don't have good map awareness.

 

finally someone who undestard how game works!

i admire u!

[X3notron]

a little expample of a good fleet is made :