Tell me WG why I should sail a DD and not an IJN CL on tier 7 + ?

[Broevaharo]

Is there any good reason left to sail them? You get spotted anyway by everything + the kitchen table just like in a CL, your torps do the same damage as a IJN CL (if you magically are able to hit anything) and the speed you have is maybe 1 knot faster than a CL.

Ooh yes you have smoke, 2 times stock and 3 times with a captain skill which doesn't help you at all because you can't outrun anything and it doesn't stay long enough to ambush anyone.

Do me a favour and just remove the DD's if you insist in [edited]them up.

[IamTroublemaker]

Haven't played any higher tier DDs, but from what I can see, as you said, every "strenght" DDs have you can find almost the same stats on CAs and it doesn't look like there is any advantage in grinding DDs considering how much they nerfed them, and for some reason refuse to buff them (probably can't admit their own mistakes)

[el_bloom]

Haven't played any higher tier DDs, but from what I can see, as you said, every "strenght" DDs have you can find almost the same stats on CAs and it doesn't look like there is any advantage in grinding DDs considering how much they nerfed them, and for some reason refuse to buff them (probably can't admit their own mistakes)

Their precious statistics will tell em the same, but why not listen to us now ?

........

[Kartoffelmos]

Do destroyers get spotted by planes from a distance of 8 (+/-) km and 13 km from the surface? Do the destroyers have aft-mounted torpedoes that can only be used when ambushing or doing a high-risk manoeuvre? Do the destroyers take citadel penetrations from battleship RNG-shots?

 

No?

 

Then there are certain merits to playing Japanese destroyers in stead of cruisers, especially if you attack from a different angle than the rest of the main fleet.

Yes, I realise that the thread is asking for a destroyer buff, but saying a IJN cruiser can do the same things as a IJN destroyer is simply wrong. Try to cap a point early in the Myoko or Mogami for example and notice how many (citadel) penetrations you suffer when a shot hits your aft deck (while you cleverly dodged the rest of the salvo) or how your AA isn't going to keep the carriers away from you. Also try to go head-to-head with a battleship by using the cruiser's stealth and superior torpedo range.

 

Having said all that, IJN destroyers need a buff, but how does one buff destroyers that have the option of never being spotted (carriers aside) while still launching torpedoes? Too much and the risk-reward pay-off will be drastically increased; too little and people will still be complaining or calling the effort useless. The torpedo spotting distance may be decreased, but this might make them frustrating to play against, as you have no idea from which angle the torpedoes will come until it's too late and the second salvo arrives. A gun buff could work, seeing as the developers found it fitting to let the american counterparts retain the stealthy torpedoes from tier 8 and upwards, effectively nullifying the "difference in playstyle".

[Bigglesof206]

 Do the destroyers take citadel penetrations from battleship RNG-shots?

 

I'm not trying to be evil here, but ANY hit on a DD pretty much wrecks it, whilst knocking out every important system on the ship from engines to the ice cream machine, so I wouldn't play the CA damage card too strongly personally.

The limits on launch angle can be frustrating for sure, the spotting is worse, but on the other hand planes don't seem to be quite as devoted to spotting cruisers as they are at spotting DDs, and once you are spotted being in a CA/CL is usually less of a death sentence.

Having a bad day Bro mate?

[22cm]

 Do the destroyers take citadel penetrations from battleship RNG-shots?

 

No, it s even worse. Every missed HE shot that lands close will destroy the engine, the rudder, torpedoes, and whatnot, as if a destroyer hull has no walls at all.

[Broevaharo]

I can tell you right now that you are better of in a cruiser than in a DD at the moment, I will get spotted anyway with all the planes in the sky and I'd rather have 40k+ health and decent guns when being shot at.

I was a very dedicated DD player in Alpha and CBT with more than 1 k battles in them and I really liked them because they were a challenge but you had a fighting chance even at the high tiers, now you can either stomp newbies in your Minekaze or get shot to crap in the higher tiers, it just pisses me off how bad the gameplay in DD's is right now and WG should have known better because all Alpha and CBT players already told them on forehand what would happen if they nerfed DD's even more.

[22cm]

... it just pisses me off how bad the gameplay in DD's is right now and WG should have known better because all Alpha and CBT players already told them on forehand what would happen if they nerfed DD's even more.

 

I m also pissed of how UP the DDs are now compared to the OP CVs.

[Aeskir]

 

+1

Not to mention, its even worse in US DD...

[Thlurp]

and 'torpedoes are op' threads still pop up daily.

 

i would love some balance to DD's as well, the cluttered sky gives some extreme limits to torps

[Sub_Eleven]

I think you are generous with your tier 7+. Should be tier 6+, as the fun stopped there for me.

[AnuSuaraj]

So what you're saying is that when I reach the higher tiers with IJN DDs I actually have to take certain risks to the well being of my ship in order to get some damage done, unlike in the current lower tier IJN DDs with which I can just sink ships and troll people with utter impunity while never getting spotted?

 

I do wonder why the devs haven't yet decided to implement a Minkaze-like DD on tiers 8-10. About 4 km spotting range and 75 knot torps would be very nice indeed.

 

It's not like things like game balance are important or anything.

 

[vildemort]

and 'torpedoes are op' threads still pop up daily.

 

i would love some balance to DD's as well, the cluttered sky gives some extreme limits to torps

 

I think the complaints of that the derpedoes are op are mostly on lower tiers where maps are smaller and offer better cover for DDs. On higher tier games, I much rarely get a full complement of torpedoes on my sides.

[Iron_Gekko]

I think the error is that DD's especially on open water maps, think they can stream ahead of the fleet and into the gunrange of the entire enemy fleet with getting shot to pieces.

 

The most effective destroyers I have seen are the ones that stick close to the fleet and launch (long-range) torp attacks or simply pour on a high rate of fire on enemy cruisers.

 

I can see the point on the island map of "sneaking" around... but I have to agree with you from a experienced CV point of view, if I spot you, Ill keep you spotted til my fleet takes you out or I will bring in enough torp bombers to wreck you. Not fun I know, but I cannot risk you getting close to my BBs and sinking them because DD's are actually quite a danger. Fun for a DD... no, but there it is.

[Broevaharo]

So what you're saying is that when I reach the higher tiers with IJN DDs I actually have to take certain risks to the well being of my ship in order to get some damage done, unlike in the current lower tier IJN DDs with which I can just sink ships and troll people with utter impunity while never getting spotted?

 

I do wonder why the devs haven't yet decided to implement a Minkaze-like DD on tiers 8-10. About 4 km spotting range and 75 knot torps would be very nice indeed.

 

It's not like things like game balance are important or anything.

 

 

Come on Anu, you know better than that, I'm not asking for OP DD's like they are on the low tiers, I ask for a fighting chance and you don't have any on the high tiers, something you"ll find out as well when you reach the Mutsuki or the Hatsuharu.

You know what I do for fun when I'm sailing my tier 7 CV (Hiryu)? Nuking DD's out of the water as soon as I spot them (and trust me I will spot them) and you know what? They don't stand a chance against 3 TB flights.

And if I somehow miserably fail (and that is not often) they will then get shot to crap by the cruisers and even if they don't they won't have any chance anymore to do a decent torpedo run because everyone has the awareness skill and all ships on those tiers have scouts or fighters in the air that will spot your torps as soon as you launch them.

If you get hit by DD torps on the high tiers you are either visually impared or you are just too stupid to sail in those high tiers anyway (the usual let's sail in a straigh line for 6 minutes or let's go through a narrow channel in my BB, sounds like a good idea)

[tajj7]

The US DDs from 8 (ish) make the IJN DDs pretty much obsolete because the Fletcher and Gearing have fast long range torps and massively better guns so they can do the US DD dog fight/ gun boat thing, and they can also do the stealth torp launching almost as well as the IJN DDs.

 

I've also noticed that on the Atago, If you get the camo consumable + captain's camo skill + detection reduction equipment you can cut the detectability on the surface by 25%, which means it goes to about 8.9km. Thus with 10km torps you can torp people without getting detected. Of course that requires people to sail in straight lines but still, you'll catch some people out especially as it can put 8 torps out either side. 

 

Add in the speed boost flag which increases the top speed up 37.4 knots, you basically have a big DD with 40000 HP and 10 8 inch guns 

[IamTroublemaker]

The US DDs from 8 (ish) make the IJN DDs pretty much obsolete because the Fletcher and Gearing have fast long range torps and massively better guns so they can do the US DD dog fight/ gun boat thing, and they can also do the stealth torp launching almost as well as the IJN DDs.

 

I've also noticed that on the Atago, If you get the camo consumable + captain's camo skill + detection reduction equipment you can cut the detectability on the surface by 25%, which means it goes to about 8.9km. Thus with 10km torps you can torp people without getting detected. Of course that requires people to sail in straight lines but still, you'll catch some people out especially as it can put 8 torps out either side. 

 

Add in the speed boost flag which increases the top speed up 37.4 knots, you basically have a big DD with 40000 HP and 10 8 inch guns 

 

Now you are making me think about buying it

[tajj7]

 

Now you are making me think about buying it

 

It's a nice all round Japanese cruiser but it does have it's cons, the citadels are huge so you need to avoid being broadside whenever possible (got one shoted last night by a Yamato), the ROF is a little on the low side and the AA is average. 

 

Also remember it will take a while to get a 5 skill captain skill, but it will be a nice trick to have once I get there and I'm pretty sure that with that combo you will have the lowest surface detectability of any cruiser above about tier 6, and I think because the lower level cruisers can't have the concealment system equipment technically one of the lowest surface detectability of any cruiser in the game.  

 

it would be a decent main tree cruiser in it's own right IMO, it has some things worse than the Mogami and some things better, like the forward firing tubes (another advantage over other IJN cruisers, who all fire their torps kind of in retreat) 

 

It certainly with the right captain skills, equipment and flag set up could be like an oversized destroyer. 

[Andreevson]

Answer: Shimakaze.

[RAZ0RLIGHT]

yeah WG hates DDs and BBs

 

playing DDs above T5 is pretty much pointless and BBs have the worst accuracy i have ever seen in a game, even a sawed off shotgun shooting at a target 1km away is more accurate

[rigawe]

I think you are generous with your tier 7+. Should be tier 6+, as the fun stopped there for me.

 

Same for me since the minekaze is the best japanese DD and then it's getting worth.

And at the same time the Aoba appears...

[Kartoffelmos]

I'm not trying to be evil here, but ANY hit on a DD pretty much wrecks it, whilst knocking out every important system on the ship from engines to the ice cream machine, so I wouldn't play the CA damage card too strongly personally.

The limits on launch angle can be frustrating for sure, the spotting is worse, but on the other hand planes don't seem to be quite as devoted to spotting cruisers as they are at spotting DDs, and once you are spotted being in a CA/CL is usually less of a death sentence.

Having a bad day Bro mate?

 

*Sigh*

Yes, having the advantage in both manoeuvrability and detectability is obviously not good enough. My point was, that in destroyers, you can choose your engagements and can break off without taking any damage if you are lucky (or actually having enough distance between yourself and the enemy)  and deploy your smoke right. Annoying planes are a different matter entirely, but blame that on the carriers.

 

I have no issues with IJN cruisers (in case you deduced that such was my agenda), in fact I find them fun to play, but it is annoying that you cannot carry as well as a DD in Domination mode or as a BB/CV in most of the other games. What I do have an issue with, is the countless X is broken, waaaah, waaah-threads that pop up regularly. In stead of starting this thread with the garbage line of destroyers being inferior to tier 6+ cruisers in every aspect, it would have been much more constructive to actually state the current issues and suggest ways to fix those. That way, a constructive discussion could have started, contrary to the current whine-fest.

 

No, my day was quite fine, thanks for asking, Buddy pal friend.

[Broevaharo]

Are you seriously telling me how I should play with DD's mstr Kartoffelmos? I certainly hope not since you haven't played any of them, not even on the low tiers where they are imho  OP to say the least.

All the statements you make on how to play DD's works fine on the low tiers with no planes around after tier 5 the following happens:

1. Your reload times on torps double (or more)
2. The spotting range of torpedoes increases, speed stays the same or even decreases which makes them easier to evade
3. The speed of any DD goes down relative to the speed of cruisers and BB's
4. 20 seconds of smoke doesn't save your [edited]anymore like it does on low tiers because a Cv will just park a plane on top of you.
5. Gun  damage is not enough to fence off anyone or to succesfully harass someone (the thing that US DD's are supposed to do)
6. All ships (even the BB's) have scout planes or fighters in the air so you get constantly spotted (I'm not even talking about the CV planes because they are not a constant)
7. All captains have situational awareness so getting somewhere without an alarm going of is just not happening

 

The sole key for DD's to survive is stealth, it is their only weapon to be succesful in any engagement and what WG has done is to negate that sole weapon of the DD's with all of the above, ever wondered why there are so few DD's on the high tiers? Well this is why.

[Kartoffelmos]

Oh, please. Point me to the place where I told anyone how they should play destroyers. If the fact that I pointed out what a destroyer is capable of can be considered as advice, by all means harass me with the fact that I did not start to play destroyers after the open beta wipe. Why? I didn't like the playstyle, nor does it appeal to me after the balance/historical changes either, much due to the (well-known) reasons you listed as only the tier 5 and tier 10 destroyers are considered good (slightly OP at tier 5 after what I've heard/read) at tiers 4+.

 

If I must repeat myself: please stop the whining and add constructive suggestions. As it is now, I could start a similar thread about USN CAs being inferior to IJN BBs, but that would be equally silly, though more untrue.

[Broevaharo]

Yeah you could but it would be silly to say the least, at the moment there are only two classes that need nerfing/buffing and that would be the CV's and the DD's, the BB's and CL's are doing fine ( and yes I play them all).

And I've been constructive enough on all matters considering balancing ships even back as far as Alpha but there comes a point where you just had enough when you see what happened to the game.