Chibi Battleships-Smaller, Faster and Cuter

[Bl4ckh0g]

This post is about some very interesting ships. I've made this post mostly because They are rather unique vessels, with a specialized role and There weren't really any discussion about how They would perform in the game. Now, I am quite fond of these ships and I think They would be really enjoyable to play. What's your take on these magnificent beasts? 

 

Large cruisers, Heavy cruisers, Battlecruisers...They were called many things, but essentially they were designed for one thing.

To kill cruisers. They were cruiser killers.

 

In this topic I will present a couple of them from various nations. I will not include technical details, but I will link the corresponding Wiki page.

 

Germany's O-class battlecrusier.

 

 

The Netherland's Design 1047 battlecruiser

 

 

Russia's Kornshtadt-class battlecruiser

 

 

Russia's Stalingrad-class battlecruiser

 

 

USA's Alaska-class large cruiser

 

 

And finally Japan's Design B-65 cruiser 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, Of course nearly all of these ships were already posted in this forum, some are even multiple times, but Those were topics about the individual ship, and not the concept of these ships. The concept of a ship entirely dedicated on hunting cruisers, and How would that work in the game.

 

There are some ships not included here, for example the German Deutschland-class and P-class, These ships have considerably worse protection and smaller displacement. And There are some ships like the Dunkerque. In case of her, I feel like She's more of a "fast battleship" than a cruiser killer, the armor protection on the Strasbourg is significantly better and her firepower and speed is also more akin to a smaller fast battleship, than to a "large cruiser".(E.: They got in after all.)

And there are ships like the Stalingrad which was designed in the '50s, because of this She is more modern, but still can be placed in the game If some stuff is ignored or stripped away.

 

Now, I did not include a tier placement for them, because that will depend on the game's class balance, If there is a surplus of cruisers, then They can be placed in the game with their intended role as high tier cruiser killers, but If the number of cruisers in battle is fewer, then They would be low tier battlecruisers, similar to the Kongo.

 

These ships feature lighter armor and firepower than contemporary battleships, but far higher, cruiser like speeds, since They were never meant to engage capital ships.

How's this translates to the game?

Well, Your main role would be to hunt cruisers, but You still have a considerable firepower at your disposal and although You are no match for a battleship alone, It is not a far stretched idea to team up with a couple of your cruisers, forming a Wolf-pack and acting as a fast response/flanking force for the team. 

As part of a wolf-pack, defeating enemy lone battleships becomes so much easier as well.

 

Because of their nature, They can really screw up the in game balance. Just imagine how much suffering Cruiser skippers will endure If these ships would be implemented and played en masse

 

And because of this I'm thinking that most of them should be high tier premium ships. 

Especially in the case of Design 1047, since the Netherlands will probably only get implemented as part of the minor nation's tree.

 

 

So, What do you think about them? How would you rather see them? How would you play them? and Would you buy them If They were high tier premium ships?

 

 

Thanks for reading, here have a Chibi Yamato.

 

E.: so, like 2 other ships.

 

They are slightly different, but like also really similar.

So I put them in.

Well, These ships are more armored and slightly slower, but still can chase cruisers well. They can even go against some capital ships.

They are slightly older ships, both were built in the early '30s compared to the previous cruiser killers which were built/intended to be built in the early '40s.

 

Well first is the Dunkerque-class of the MN

 

The other one is the Scharnhorst-class

 

If There's any more such ship You want to see her, then tell me and I'll put it in(If She matches these ones well enough)

[Argysh]

Nice read, good effort.

 

But you realize that there are already Battlecruisers in-game?

 

Especially with the IJN. Kongo for example.

But if you have a look at the proposed tech trees some fans made, the KM and RN seem to have lots of them too.

[SBS]

These ships will probably all come in to the game at some point, the question is just when. Just think of WoT how many tanks are there, both real and just paper designs.

[Bl4ckh0g]

Nice read, good effort.

 

But you realize that there are already Battlecruisers in-game?

 

Especially with the IJN. Kongo for example.

But if you have a look at the proposed tech trees some fans made, the KM and RN seem to have lots of them too.

 

These ships aren't ordinary battlecruisers though.

Normally a battlecruiser has equivalent or at least comparable firepower to a battleship built in the same time period, but these ships do not have such armament.

They have smaller caliber guns, with faster RoF, and armor protection designed to withstand heavy cruiser caliber gunfire, and They are very fast, some even reach 35 knots.

 

These ships have no equivalent in game. They seem like a similar ship to Kongo, but compared to her, these ships would sit in tier 7 or 8, not in tier 5. 

And Of course They have minimal chance against a battleship, again unlike Myogi, Kongo or Amagi in the game.

 

[Ra97oR]

US called them "Large cruiser". Besides the O-class and the Kronshtadt-class they all have relatively small guns.

 

Kongo in game is a fast battleship for sure, with the extensive up armouring modernization. Somewhat like a less advanced Iowa, NC and Yamato. Amagi seems to be a battlecruiser that actually have some armour.

[Bl4ckh0g]

US called them "Large cruiser". Besides the O-class and the Kronshtadt-class they all have relatively small guns.

 

Kongo in game is a fast battleship for sure, with the extensive up armouring modernization. Somewhat like a less advanced Iowa, NC and Yamato. Amagi seems to be a battlecruiser that actually have some armour.

 

Well, Kornshtadt was initially designed to have smaller caliber guns, 11" ones IIRC.

Kongo is actually really similar to these ships, some even have better armor than Kongo. If She was not built in the 1910s, I would have included her as well. 

[Unintentional_submarine]

 

Kongo is actually really similar to these ships, some even have better armor than Kongo. If She was not built in the 1910s, I would have included her as well. 

 

Quite. Kongo retained her weak 203 mm belt. That's not battleship level armour. It's only two thirds of what Hood had, and people still call her a battlecruiser (wrongly in my mind). The real kicker is when the Japanese changed the designation. It was when they added the torpedobulges in the first refit. That reduced her speed to 25 knots, and that was apparently not enough for a battlecruiser to the Japanese. Mind you, that first refit barely touched upon protection other than those bulges.

[delaci76]

Yeah I think the Alaska needs to make an appearance.

[Bl4ckh0g]

 

Quite. Kongo retained her weak 203 mm belt. That's not battleship level armour. It's only two thirds of what Hood had, and people still call her a battlecruiser (wrongly in my mind). The real kicker is when the Japanese changed the designation. It was when they added the torpedobulges in the first refit. That reduced her speed to 25 knots, and that was apparently not enough for a battlecruiser to the Japanese. Mind you, that first refit barely touched upon protection other than those bulges.

 

Yeah, thing is that the Kongo is actually worse compared to the B-65, like in everything. 

The B-65 has smaller guns, but those guns have around the same penetration as the Kongo's 14" ones(coming from the Alaska's 12")

B-65 has better protection, speed, AA, secondaries(10 cm guns) and even torpedoes.

But, like B-65 is still not as strong to take on a Fuso, so If you'd handle her as a normal battlecruiser, then She'd be around tier 5 at most tier 6, but then like. Why would you play the Kongo?

Or like If Alaska would be tier 6 or maybe 7 Who would play the New Mexico? or the Colorado?

Like, even If you'd put the B-65 in tier 7, then like would She be that much worse than the Nagato?

 

but, like If you put them in tier 9, then like Why would you play the Alaska when you could play the Iowa?

 

So like, It is quite hard to place them into the game.

[Unintentional_submarine]

 

Yeah, thing is that the Kongo is actually worse compared to the B-65, like in everything. 

The B-65 has smaller guns, but those guns have around the same penetration as the Kongo's 14" ones(coming from the Alaska's 12")

B-65 has better protection, speed, AA, secondaries(10 cm guns) and even torpedoes.

But, like B-65 is still not as strong to take on a Fuso, so If you'd handle her as a normal battlecruiser, then She'd be around tier 5 at most tier 6, but then like. Why would you play the Kongo?

Or like If Alaska would be tier 6 or maybe 7 Who would play the New Mexico? or the Colorado?

Like, even If you'd put the B-65 in tier 7, then like would She be that much worse than the Nagato?

 

but, like If you put them in tier 9, then like Why would you play the Alaska when you could play the Iowa?

 

So like, It is quite hard to place them into the game.

 

Well, maybe, just maybe they could get their own functionality. You know like the other four. And it isn't as if WG hasn't fiddled with stats to make ships fit the tiers. For instance, you really don't want the Wyoming to have it's real late hull AA (total deathzone for the tier), or the Japanese late cruiser guns. And among the DDs guns and torps are to put it mildly, quite strange. Clearly these, shall we call them light battlecruisers, since they are smaller than their battleship counterparts (that is of same age ships), unlike the older battlecruisers which were generally as big or even larger, could work with that. Imagine them having only mildly larger turning circles than cruisers (to make up for their lack of bulges I suppose), but still have a nasty AA sting.

 

Just plopping them into the battleship line would probably work badly, unless heavy statchanges were made.

For instance, let's say B-65 is made into T5. Now why is Kongo worth it? Because while the 14 inchers are only just about as powerful in penetration their alpha is much greater. Also as noted the Kongo class was fitted with bulges, which the Alaska never got, and the others weren't supposed to get either, so she would be more survivable agianst torpedoes. Finally while the armour looks similar, the Kongo class is bigger and with more structural strength. While the refit didn't increase the belt, it did add a lot of internal support and strengthened bulkheads. Penetrations would be contained better.

 

In any case, such fancy ships don't belong in the low tiers. They are the pinnacle of technology in a certain line. They belong in the high tiers. Sure you can have outliers like the Hashidate, Erie and Hermelin, but the other ships generally fit the tier/age well enough (Cleveland excepted of course), as should these.

[Bl4ckh0g]

 

Well, maybe, just maybe they could get their own functionality. You know like the other four. And it isn't as if WG hasn't fiddled with stats to make ships fit the tiers. For instance, you really don't want the Wyoming to have it's real late hull AA (total deathzone for the tier), or the Japanese late cruiser guns. And among the DDs guns and torps are to put it mildly, quite strange. Clearly these, shall we call them light battlecruisers, since they are smaller than their battleship counterparts (that is of same age ships), unlike the older battlecruisers which were generally as big or even larger, could work with that. Imagine them having only mildly larger turning circles than cruisers (to make up for their lack of bulges I suppose), but still have a nasty AA sting.

 

Just plopping them into the battleship line would probably work badly, unless heavy statchanges were made.

For instance, let's say B-65 is made into T5. Now why is Kongo worth it? Because while the 14 inchers are only just about as powerful in penetration their alpha is much greater. Also as noted the Kongo class was fitted with bulges, which the Alaska never got, and the others weren't supposed to get either, so she would be more survivable agianst torpedoes. Finally while the armour looks similar, the Kongo class is bigger and with more structural strength. While the refit didn't increase the belt, it did add a lot of internal support and strengthened bulkheads. Penetrations would be contained better.

 

In any case, such fancy ships don't belong in the low tiers. They are the pinnacle of technology in a certain line. They belong in the high tiers. Sure you can have outliers like the Hashidate, Erie and Hermelin, but the other ships generally fit the tier/age well enough (Cleveland excepted of course), as should these.

 

 

Yeah, I think the high tiers would suit them better, though currently the Alaska is placed as a tier 6 normal BB AFAIK.

I hope They change that by the time they are implemented.

I think tier 8 would be the best, and If possible as premiums. Mostly because They could have a serious impact on the high tiers otherwise. In a bad way, like Cruiser numbers would go down immensely.

I have my doubts about their performance in tier 9 and 10. They'd have to be together with ships like the Yamato, Montana, Iowa, and Izumo(If fixed).

 

Well, anyway.

I think they will have good turning characteristics, because They are as big, some are even bigger than the Kongo, and in high tiers with the more powerful guns They would be BB food rather easily. 

[Battledragon]

You forgot probably the most famous mini-battleships of all, the Deutschland class heavy cruisers.

as they were 3000 tons lighter than a Des Moins class cruiser these really were cruiser weight ships despite their 280mm main armament.

 

[Bl4ckh0g]

You forgot probably the most famous mini-battleships of all, the Deutschland class heavy cruisers.

as they were 3000 tons lighter than a Des Moins class cruiser these really were cruiser weight ships despite their 280mm main armament.

 

 

I didn't include the D and the P because They have considerably worse protection, they are essentially just heavy cruisers with really big guns.

 

They kind of had the same role, but they are in a different weight category.

I thought about including them in a plus post, There are some designs similar to them as well, but I don't know, peps do not seem to care about them that much 

[Unintentional_submarine]

Yeah, their armour is nothing comparable to the big cruiser killers. And they also had fewer guns. And were slower...

 

The last we have seen about them is that they are at the top of the German cruiser line. I disagree with that position (seriously, weaker armour and slower than both DM and Zao, and Zao will certainly match it in gun penetration and overmatch it in torpedoes), but not with the line. Even if they were to use the P-class it wouldn't really change much, perhaps just the better 28cm guns from the Scharnhorsts, but otherwise pretty much the same.

 

But the problem really is that Germany didn't have many plans for more modern heavy cruisers. Admiral Hipper is basically as good as it gets, and while a perfectly fine class, it isn't T10 material.

[Bl4ckh0g]

These ships look awesome by the way, like really awesome.

I mean, a lot of people say that They Adore how the Hood looks

 

an certainly She isn't bad looking, but just compare her to the 1047

 

or the O-class

 

 

 

These ships are gorgeous. Absolutely gorgeous.

 

[YukiEiriKun]

or the O-class

 

These ships are gorgeous. Absolutely gorgeous.

 

That bow.. And those sleek lines.. *droool*

Yeah, big slumbering BB's can look cool as well, but that O-class..

[Bl4ckh0g]

 

That bow.. And those sleek lines.. *droool*

Yeah, big slumbering BB's can look cool as well, but that O-class..

 

Yeup, that ship is not just gorgeous, It's also fast as hell.

35 knots.

 

There were slower destroyers around at the time.

[Bl4ckh0g]

This is like a What If stuff, like Alt history stuff.

 

but

 

 

like

 

 

What If instead of the Bismark and Tirpitz, Germany would have built 3 O-class battlecruisers.

 

Like

 

 

Did the RN have anything...Anything at all, that could catch that ship and had a chance of taking it out?

 

 

 

like, 

 

Anything at all.

 

Even designs.

 

 

[Unintentional_submarine]

The O-class might appear good on paper, but there is a reason it had the nickname "Ohne Panzer Quatsch", a wordplay on the three ships being O P and Q (meaning without armour nonsense). Every post-war analysis of the class has had it come up short. Even the Americans were decidedly unsatisfied with the Alaska class.

 

The things is that even though their armour was supposed to withstand heavy cruisers, it really couldn't. They could still riddle it well and hurt plenty things. What it could do was to make sure that an O-class could beat a heavy cruiser in an even fight, and do so decisively. Add another heavy cruiser and it would have to run, something a battleship like Bismarck or Tirpitz would never have to do. So if Germany had built three of those instead of the two Bismarcks, the RN could simply have bottled them up with heavy cruisers. A sortie would run into them and from the beginning would have to run a gauntlet. To say nothing of facing a battleship. At least the two heavy ships could fight them and not be expected to get split down the middle.

 

The 34 knot speed was not really feasible for longer periods. That's also one of the advantages of the Bismarck class. They could maintain high speed for a long period of time, even if it wasn't as high.

 

For the game it is a near perfect sort of ship though. Faster, more nimble, still powerfully armed. It is like taking the present IJN BB line to an extreme conclusion. It's weaker armour mitigated somewhat by angling better, and it's high top speed making it able to run down cruisers with ease.

[Bl4ckh0g]

The O-class might appear good on paper, but there is a reason it had the nickname "Ohne Panzer Quatsch", a wordplay on the three ships being O P and Q (meaning without armour nonsense). Every post-war analysis of the class has had it come up short. Even the Americans were decidedly unsatisfied with the Alaska class.

 

The things is that even though their armour was supposed to withstand heavy cruisers, it really couldn't. They could still riddle it well and hurt plenty things. What it could do was to make sure that an O-class could beat a heavy cruiser in an even fight, and do so decisively. Add another heavy cruiser and it would have to run, something a battleship like Bismarck or Tirpitz would never have to do. So if Germany had built three of those instead of the two Bismarcks, the RN could simply have bottled them up with heavy cruisers. A sortie would run into them and from the beginning would have to run a gauntlet. To say nothing of facing a battleship. At least the two heavy ships could fight them and not be expected to get split down the middle.

 

The 34 knot speed was not really feasible for longer periods. That's also one of the advantages of the Bismarck class. They could maintain high speed for a long period of time, even if it wasn't as high.

 

For the game it is a near perfect sort of ship though. Faster, more nimble, still powerfully armed. It is like taking the present IJN BB line to an extreme conclusion. It's weaker armour mitigated somewhat by angling better, and it's high top speed making it able to run down cruisers with ease.

 

 

Well, the Alaskas were white elephants.

The ship was good, but it was unnecessary,

The problem with them was that one Alaska nearly cost as much as a battleship to build and maintain, and Japan did not have much cruisers to kill at that point, so they just lacked the job They were designed for.

Maybe In the game they will be good. Well, Who knows until then.

 

About the O-class.

I noticed their rather bad armor protection as well, 190 mm belt armor is not much, compared to other cruiser killers which were nearly as protected as the Dunkerque.

Though They could still pressure the RN to direct more resources to protecting convoys.

Like, If 2 heavy cruisers could rival one O class, That would mean, that the RN would need to have 2 heavy cruisers with each convoy, or a battleship or even more light cruisers.

 

[Hauptbahnhof]

This post is about some very interesting ships. I've made this post mostly because They are rather unique vessels, with a specialized role and There weren't really any discussion about how They would perform in the game. Now, I am quite fond of these ships and I think They would be really enjoyable to play. What's your take on these magnificent beasts? 

 

Large cruisers, Heavy cruisers, Battlecruisers...They were called many things, but essentially they were designed for one thing.

To kill cruisers. They were cruiser killers.

 

In this topic I will present a couple of them from various nations. I will not include technical details, but I will link the corresponding Wiki page.

 

Germany's O-class battlecrusier.

 

 

 

You missed the German Scharnhorst and Gneiesenau Battlecruisers.

 

They fulfill all the criteria:

- 11 inch main guns ( fast firing with 17 seconds reload ).

- Fast speed of 31 knot to catch Cruisers

- Enough armor and displacement to win against any Cruiser.

[Bl4ckh0g]

 

You missed the German Scharnhorst and Gneiesenau Battlecruisers.

 

They fulfill all the criteria:

- 11 inch main guns ( fast firing with 17 seconds reload ).

- Fast speed of 31 knot to catch Cruisers

- Enough armor and displacement to win against any Cruiser.

 

Scharnhorst-God I hate to type this name

Anyway

Said ship is in the same basket as the Dunkerque, They are more akin to fast battleships/larger battlecruisers 

She has better armor protection and slightly slower speed.

She is more of a smaller fast battleship than a cruiser killer really.

[Hauptbahnhof]

 

Scharnhorst-God I hate to type this name

Anyway

Said ship is in the same basket as the Dunkerque, They are more akin to fast battleships/larger battlecruisers 

She has better armor protection and slightly slower speed.

She is more of a smaller fast battleship than a cruiser killer really.

 

Nope, the 11 inch guns are chance-less against any real Battleship armor. It is meant to fight cruisers and not heavier ships.

 

It is a Battlecruiser but with a bit more focus on armor and less speed then other models.

 

Alaska for example also had some 300mm+ armor on barbettes and turrets, so no ship is same as the other and all are unique individuals.

[Bl4ckh0g]

 

Nope, the 11 inch guns are chance-less against any real Battleship armor. It is meant to fight cruisers and not heavier ships.

 

It is a Battlecruiser but with a bit more focus on armor and less speed then other models.

 

Alaska for example also had some 300mm+ armor on barbettes and turrets, so no ship is same as the other and all are unique individuals.

 

The 11" guns were more of a political decision really and because They were available sooner than the 15" ones, The ships were meant to counter the Dunkerque.

Compared to the development of the B-65, Alaska, 1047 which were designed from the get go as ships entirely dedicated of combating enemy cruisers, the Scharnhorst and Dunkerque is really just smaller battleships meant to counter ships like the Deutschland-class or each other.

They are indeed similar to these ships, but different roles, better protection and lower speed makes enough difference(at least in my eye) to not to include them here.

 

 

[Hauptbahnhof]

smaller battleships meant to counter ships like the Deutschland-class or each other.

They are indeed similar to these ships, but different roles, better protection and lower speed makes enough difference(at least in my eye) to not to include them here.

 

 

And what is the Deutschland-class if not a Cruiser?

 

It was as written previously in the thread smaller and with less armor then the Des moines.

 

And the Dunkerque and other Battlecruisers with lighter armor had the similar armor thickness as Heavy Cruisers like Des moines has (150-200mm over important areas like belt, turrets and such), so if you counter a Battlecruiser you also by definition counter a cruiser with similar speed and similar protection.

 

To counter a Scharnhorst class in close range brawl you do need a Battleship though due to their thicker belt armor and to resist their smaller guns.

 

As I wrote none of the ships are identical in speed/armor/displacement so all of them have pretty different variations already.

 

The most important definition of a Battlecruiser IMO is that it is a ship with displacements similar to Battleships but with either lacking armor or guns, and higher speed to make up for it, and in this both Dunkerque and Scharnhorst fits pretty well.

 

 

Look at the stats:

Alaska: 32knot, 34300 ton, 12 inch guns, 230mm belt, 100mm deck, 330mm max armor.

Scharnhorst: 31knot, 38100 ton, 11 inch guns, 350mm belt, 95mm deck, 360mm max armor.

 

Alaska armor layout is more fitting for Pacific long range plunging fire ( more deck armor ), while Scharnhorst is more fitting for Northsea brawls ( more belt ). Otherwise they are as close to same class as you will ever get. Just as close as variations "within" your class such as for the O class or Kronstadt with 15inch Battleship guns capable of fighting enemy line Battleships.