Carriers Getting Rediculious

[kbb07142]

How can they manage to balance carriers at low tiers, but the higher you go the more ridiculous they get despite the AA?

 

Last game i was doing very will in my myogi, taking out 2 battleships and a cruiser.

Then saw the 2 enemy carriers, but income the planes.

I send up my attack aircraft and use my AA consumable. Ok thats the 1st wave of aircraft.

Oh but here come the 2nd.

You cant dodge 6 [edited]squads of torps planes + god knows how many dive bombers.

They need to either:

1) Lower the number of squads high tier carriers get...or

2) Increase the time it takes to re-arm the planes, this would mean you could either sit around for ages waiting for your planes to re-arm or send out squads 1 or 2 at a time.

[kbb07142]

Oh and the top 2 XP earners on the enemy team?

Both the carriers.

 

Yea if carriers are not OP then why in almost every game are they top on XP?

[vladbb]

How can they manage to balance carriers at low tiers, but the higher you go the more ridiculous they get despite the AA?

 

Last game i was doing very will in my myogi, taking out 2 battleships and a cruiser.

Then saw the 2 enemy carriers, but income the planes.

I send up my attack aircraft and use my AA consumable. Ok thats the 1st wave of aircraft.

Oh but here come the 2nd.

You cant dodge 6 [edited]squads of torps planes + god knows how many dive bombers.

They need to either:

1) Lower the number of squads high tier carriers get...or

2) Increase the time it takes to re-arm the planes, this would mean you could either sit around for ages waiting for your planes to re-arm or send out squads 1 or 2 at a time.

 

Do you know any ship that survived at 6 torpedo squadrons in WW2 ? Or do you know any ship that survived in a 1-1 engagement with a CV in WW2? By engagement i mean, CV can send its fleet over you, while you don't even see it.

 

It's your problem if you're staying ALONE against an attacking fleet of TBs.

[El_Pollo_Locooo]

This is not war, genius! It should be a fun game.

[Spellfire40]

And how would be surviving the atck waves of 2 CV be fun for them when ur in a low T BB?

 

cya

 

Spellfire40

[Figment]

kbb07142, on 27 July 2015 - 08:20 PM, said:

How can they manage to balance carriers at low tiers, but the higher you go the more ridiculous they get despite the AA?

 

Last game i was doing very will in my myogi

 

Uhm. Shouldn't you make a comparison for a BB that actually... you know... HAS AA, to be able to complain about high tier CVs?

 

 

Like say, bring up an anecdote for a Nagato, Amagi, Yamato?

 

 

 

And uhm... then still realise you should sail in groups?

[vladbb]

This is not war, genius! It should be a fun game.

 

Actually it's a game that tries to be historically accurate. And like it or not, CVs changed the WW2 due to their efficiency. Even the mighty "unsinkable" Yamato got raped by torpedo bombers and carrier-based bombers. You just need to change your stupid YOLO playing style and understand that a naval battle is not all about playing pew-pew over the line drawn at the middle of the map.

 

Check YouTube and you'll find tons of ways to counter CVs. But you need to play as a team

[Crooq_Lionfang]

Two equal ships of the same tier as you working together should be able to kill you rather easily, certainly if those ships are specialized in killing the type of ship you are on. Yes, this is a game and yes, it should be fun, but where would the fun be for the CV players if they couldn't use their main strengh and your weaknesses and kill you? It's not just your fun this is about, it's just as much about the fun of the people on other teams playing other classes.

[Th3Fl0]

 

Do you know any ship that survived at 6 torpedo squadrons in WW2 ? Or do you know any ship that survived in a 1-1 engagement with a CV in WW2? By engagement i mean, CV can send its fleet over you, while you don't even see it.

 

It's your problem if you're staying ALONE against an attacking fleet of TBs.

 

I disagree to quite a few here, because it also happens when ships are grouped in pairs and up. There is disbalance between the amount of planes (and tier of the CV) vs the ship (and tier) that is being targeted. I feel strongly that the effectiveness of AA isn't sufficient to pose any threat to planes. Especially when the CV is higher in tier than the ship that is targeted. In the hands of a skilled CV sailor, you stand literally no chance. Why?

 

1. Torpedoes can be dropped so close to the vessels and arm so fast, you have no chance to dodge. So 8/10 times you eat two or more torps.

2. That wouldn't be such a big problem, if and only if, there would be just one or two waves coming in. Often you face 3 or more.

3. Due to the amount of squadrons, its a never ending stream of planes. Especially when a skilled CV player feels threatened.

4. Differences in tier between opposing CV's (fighters of the higher tiered CV will kill the planes of the lower CV with fair ease).

5. or (worst case) no CV on one side while the other team has a high tier CV. The current 'compensation' in matchmaking is often expressed in a BB or DD that is equal in tier to that CV.

 

In my opinion the biggest disbalance lies with carriers of tier 8 and up, that are matched to BB's (tier5/6/7/8) and CA (tier 6/7/8). I'm curious how other players experience this.

 

Now of course I know it is still in Beta. but for me it is a real funkiller at the moment. I'm not against CV's, not at all, imo they are essential. But the fine line between just right or OP is a really thin one as the tier gets higher. I think that the efforts made to experience a tier up in a CV as a buff to the previous CV you had shifted too much. Just to keep people interested enough in CV gameplay.

 

My hopes would go out to a reviewing by WG of the tier 8 and up carriers and their performance in battles to date. So that if there is any difference (or none) it should be pointed out quite clearly by the data that is generated by all of us. 

[McCracken666]

Higher tier CV's are absurdly imbalanced. I cannot see how they can keep being like this in the long term, from what i  read in game and on forums the waste majority find CV's have it way to easy.

 

There must be better ways to counter CV's 1vs1, no matter what, no ship should be goodlike like the CV is in current state.

 

 

[McCracken666]

Two equal ships of the same tier as you working together should be able to kill you rather easily, certainly if those ships are specialized in killing the type of ship you are on. Yes, this is a game and yes, it should be fun, but where would the fun be for the CV players if they couldn't use their main strengh and your weaknesses and kill you? It's not just your fun this is about, it's just as much about the fun of the people on other teams playing other classes.

 

I am 100% sure the game will better for everyone and also the CV's if they are toned down. They are extremly overpowered as of now.

 

I dont see how the CV goes from godlike to useless if WG balance them out. No one want the CV useless.

[McCracken666]

 

Actually it's a game that tries to be historically accurate.

 

Stop it. it is not, not at all.

 

[Mindfulcrane07]

 

I am 100% sure the game will better for everyone and also the CV's if they are toned down. They are extremly overpowered as of now.

 

I dont see how the CV goes from godlike to useless if WG balance them out. No one want the CV useless.

 

well at the moment if the enemy team actualy use teamwork and clever use of the AA skill CVs do very little dmg and that is not fun either. at the moment the biggest problem i see is lack of skills by most players.

[McCracken666]

 

well at the moment if the enemy team actualy use teamwork and clever use of the AA skill CVs do very little dmg and that is not fun either. at the moment the biggest problem i see is lack of skills by most players.

 

I agree with you, when teamwork actually works it is better. and if it was like that every time, then the problem would not be as big as it is now. But we play random matches, teamwork isnt going to be there everytime, AND the game should not force you into playin convoys, sure its cool and i love it, but there should also be room for freedom to go where you want on your own, without some god comming by removing you instantly with no chance to counter it.

 

No ship should be allowed to be godlike vs another 1vs1. Sure the CV should be effective vs single ships, but completly overpowered to the point the target has zero means of escaping curtain death. Thats not good gameplay.

 

 

 

 

[vladbb]

 

I disagree, because it also happens when ships are grouped in pairs and up. There is disbalance between the amount of planes (and tier of the CV) vs the ship (and tier) that is being targeted. I feel strongly that the effectiveness of AA isn't sufficient to pose any threat to planes. Especially when the CV is higher in tier than the ship that is targeted. In the hands of a skilled CV sailor, you stand literally no chance. Why?

 

1. Torpedoes can be dropped so close to the vessels and arm so fast, you have no chance to dodge. So 8/10 times you eat two or more torps.

2. That wouldn't be such a big problem, if and only if, there would be just one or two waves coming in. Often you face 3 or more.

3. Due to the amount of squadrons, its a never ending stream of planes. Especially when a skilled CV player feels threatened.

4. Differences in tier between opposing CV's (fighters of the higher tiered CV will kill the planes of the lower CV with fair ease).

5. or (worst case) no CV on one side while the other team has a high tier CV. The current 'compensation' in matchmaking is often expressed in a BB or DD that is equal in tier to that CV.

 

In my opinion the biggest disbalance lies with carriers of tier 8 and up, that are matched to BB's (tier5/6/7/8) and CA (tier 6/7/8). I'm curious how other players experience this.

 

Now of course I know it is still in Beta. but for me it is a real funkiller at the moment. My hopes would go out to a reviewing by WG of the tier 8 and up carriers and their performance in battles to date. So that if there is any difference (or none) it should be pointed out quite clearly by the data that is generated by all of us. 

 

Torpedo Bombers were invented to sink large ships They were able to launch torpedoes from 1.5 Km from the target. Now scale and compare this with the 6/7/10 Km torpedoes launched from destroyers/cruisers and you'll find that there is nothing wrong with the actual aerial torpedo.

The number of airplanes in a CVs is quite accurate with the reality.

 

The real problem is that a large ship (especially BBs) should NEVER stay alone. If it's alone, then it should never survive such situations. It's common sense. While i played this game i saw that every game goes more or less in the same dirrection. Battleships tend to go all on a side, cruisers on the other side and destroyers in the middle. This is so **** up . If you want to blame WG, blame it for the fact that there are games with more BBs than cruisers, which is stupid. Normally, a BBs should be flanked by 3-4 cruisers and destroyers. As players will learn how to play the game, the result will be actual naval fleets combat style a few big ships and lots of small ships around.

[Th3Fl0]

 

well at the moment if the enemy team actualy use teamwork and clever use of the AA skill CVs do very little dmg and that is not fun either. at the moment the biggest problem i see is lack of skills by most players.

 

Very very true. But you and I both know quite well that it is something that will not change. Not in the near future, not in the long run. Look at WoT and that is the destiny of this game as well. Maybe when the game matures more, and other WoT-like elements added to the game, The skill base might climb a bit. But it ain't something I would be willing to put my money on.

[Mindfulcrane07]

 

I agree with you, when teamwork actually works it is better. and if it was like that every time, then the problem would not be as big as it is now. But we play random matches, teamwork isnt going to be there everytime, AND the game should not force you into playin convoys, sure its cool and i love it, but there should also be room for freedom to go where you want on your own, without some god comming by removing you instantly with no chance to counter it.

 

No ship should be allowed to be godlike vs another 1vs1. Sure the CV should be effective vs single ships, but completly overpowered to the point the target has zero means of escaping curtain death. Thats not good gameplay.

 

 

 

 

 

well 1vs1 against a BB since CV's main thing is to kill BBs i 100% think that in a 1vs1 against a BB the CV should win 90% of the time. against a CA if you have one squad and the CA have any basic skills he would not die (ofcourse this is if the cruiser is 100% hp) but if the CV use all his squads i think it should be able to kill him since a CV may attak once every 4-5 min. so ofcourse that is a huge dmg potentiale. also that 1vs1 is based on the where the CV shines at longer range i am sure that if it is at 10 km the cruiser might aswell kill the CV.

[Th3Fl0]

 

Torpedo Bombers were invented to sink large ships They were able to launch torpedoes from 1.5 Km from the target. Now scale and compare this with the 6/7/10 Km torpedoes launched from destroyers/cruisers and you'll find that there is nothing wrong with the actual aerial torpedo.

The number of airplanes in a CVs is quite accurate with the reality.

 

The real problem is that a large ship (especially BBs) should NEVER stay alone. If it's alone, then it should never survive such situations. It's common sense. While i played this game i saw that every game goes more or less in the same dirrection. Battleships tend to go all on a side, cruisers on the other side and destroyers in the middle. This is so **** up . If you want to blame WG, blame it for the fact that there are games with more BBs than cruisers, which is stupid. Normally, a BBs should be flanked by 3-4 cruisers and destroyers. As players will learn how to play the game, the result will be actual naval fleets combat style a few big ships and lots of small ships around.

 

The amount of planes might be accurate. The way they drop isn't. In reality pilotes didn't drop their torpedoes in a perfect small spread whilst being under AA fire. And they sure as hell didn't drop them all at the same time 10/10 times. What I really miss is the stress effect of AA on inbound torp planes. I feel that it isn't added to the equation atm. And I am talking about the stress effect that happens when torp planes are under attack by fighters. 

 

In return to your statement about being alone as a BB, could you give me your definition of being alone? 

 

In my experience, in the rare occasions I play a BB, when I get (read IF I get) a escorting CA with me, they often stay 3 or more km away from me. While the most effective AA has a max range of just 2/3k . If the planes come from the other direction you already have a problem. I support your feelings about less BB and more smaller ships in game. That would also tune down the effect of CV's a bit.

 

 

[Mindfulcrane07]

 

The amount of planes might be accurate. The way they drop isn't. In reality pilotes didn't drop their torpedoes in a perfect small spread whilst being under AA fire. And they sure as hell didn't drop them all at the same time 10/10 times. What I really miss is the stress effect of AA on inbound torp planes. I feel that it isn't added to the equation atm. And I am talking about the stress effect that happens when torp planes are under attack by fighters. 

 

In return to your statement about being alone as a BB, could you give me your definition of being alone? 

 

In my experience, in the rare occasions I play a BB, when I get (read IF I get) a escorting CA with me, they often stay 3 or more km away from me. While the most effective AA has a max range of just 2/3k . If the planes come from the other direction you already have a problem. I support your feelings about less BB and more smaller ships in game. That would also tune down the effect of CV's a bit.

 

 

actualy when your torp planes get under fire by either fighters, a lot of AA or the AA skill they drop the torps is a wide spread that in most case mean you miss more torps

[W4lt3r]

actualy when your torp planes get under fire by either fighters, a lot of AA or the AA skill they drop the torps is a wide spread that in most case mean you miss more torps

 

It's either:

Defensive fire, Fighters or the fighter scout.

Only those cause the inaccuracy to bombers.. and most often only show on dive bombers but torpedo bombers still drop their set on the desired point and still score few hits.. If it is for example 3 groups of torpedo bombers from an IJN Carrier, even with the defensive fire debuff, proper placement of the drop point ensures the victim ship will suffer hits from 4+ bombers.

[CactuarLOL]

You cant dodge 6 [edited]squads of torps planes + god knows how many dive bombers.

 

This^^

 

You get killed by trying to take on 2 carriers alone and complain that they are OP? Please.

[Th3Fl0]

actualy when your torp planes get under fire by either fighters, a lot of AA or the AA skill they drop the torps is a wide spread that in most case mean you miss more torps

 

It isn't for nothing that many people complain about CV's in general. People experience them being far too effective and a force they cannot counter effectively. If that is true or not isn't the real issue. What people lack (what I lack) is visual proof of AA doing harm to the inbound planes. And by harm I don't just mean planes being shot down from the sky.

 

I feel that part of the problem is the range where the AA is becoming effective. The distance that planes have to cover between that effective AA range and the point of release of torpedoes is quite small to have effect on the spread. You're saying that the spread becomes wider under the influence of AA, fighters and/or the AA skill, while more realistic would be wider spread and/or a torpedo dropped too early or too late (aka too close to arm). I feel that tweaking should be done in the effectiveness of AA and the visual effect that it creates on torpedo planes. 

 

Seeing is believing :-)

 

 

[DtXpwnz]

I feel that part of the problem is the range where the AA is becoming effective. The distance that planes have to cover between that effective AA range and the point of release of torpedoes is quite small to have effect on the spread. You're saying that the spread becomes wider under the influence of AA, fighters and/or the AA skill, while more realistic would be wider spread and/or a torpedo dropped too early or too late (aka too close to arm). I feel that tweaking should be done in the effectiveness of AA and the visual effect that it creates on torpedo planes. 

 

Seeing is believing :-)

 

effective AA range for AA cruisers is 7,2km... does that seem too low? And that cruiser's special ability means that you cannot get withing this 7km range with your planes...

[Loran_Battle]

One of the biggest problems everybody keeps forgetting is that this is mainly a MM issue. There are some inbalances. But I advice you to take for example a Zuiho. Try to play against tier 6 ships. You will not do much, I can tell you that right now. And if the enemy Clevelands have a brain, you will lose all your planes fast.

 

And again we read "omg, the tier X CV is OP, because it killed my lone tier 7 BB". Well... yeah. If a good player in a Yamato/Montana came across a Nagato or Colorado, you would die just as fast...

 

On lower tiers the AA is kind of a problem, especially with the tier 3 ships (which in any WG game is the worst tier to be at, since you will get into tier 5 games too often). Again a problem of the mm, but not one that will change, because... "working as intended".

 

At higher tiers you need to work together. CAs need to protect their BBs (and CVs). They need to use their AA ability. And their fighter. Again, I dare you guys to grind a CV and you will see it's not as easy as it looks.

 

But it's too late, and this has been discussed for months now. There is no use talking this over. WG uses statistics, we can open a CV=OP thread every day, but in the end they will not really look at it. They will look at the statistics and say "hmmm, CVs average winrate = X%, it is higher/lower/equal to the overall winrate, therefore they are OK/OP/UP". This is how they work.

[Multispec]

Yeah CVs so OP, I score like maybe 6-8 torp hits in average over the course of a battle in my Ranger (tier 7) due to serious AA and only 1 torpedo bomber wing.

Then DBs that might not even set fires which is their main point.

 

You forget getting planes in air takes 2 mins, then 2 minutes flight to front. Then you meet resistance in form of AA skill, fighters or catapult attackers which forces me to withdraw for 40 seconds, or 80 if 2 cruisers working together are close. Then I have to realign attack run. So say 2-4 minutes spend on that alone, searching for viable targets.

There is a reason the main treat of a CV is a lone BB who yolos, and even then getting into position against a tier 7 BB usually costs me 2-4 planes.

Then 2 minutes flying back to CV and 2 minutes getting everyone airborne again.

 

Yes CVs are so OP and they play super fast like an advanced interface with a brilliant UI. Or they don't, its extremely clunky.

 

If I can't do serious damage those few times I get a good run, then why would anyone play CVs?

 

IJN cv's are already getting nerfed anyhow, by having their pure strike loadouts removed from tier 5-8.