Relative AA and the Cleveland

[Cananatra]

 

So while mind numbingly counting something in work today this occurred to me, or at least the part of me not immediately busy counting anyway.

 

The whole question of AA ability on ships. Specifically viewed from the lens of seeing all those Cleveland OP!!! posts that spring up when a carrier overflies one. Now dont expect this to be some amazing insight or even a plain old rant. Think of it as something in between. Speaking for myself as someone who has a cleveland recently in OBT and hasnt touched a carrier since CBT I do chuckle evilly to myself when my AA gets a chance to go to town on something, but here's the thing. How effective in and of itself is a clevelands AA compared to other potential AA in its teir.

 

Sure it's clearly superior to other surface ships, but then again that isn't all that's in a game now is it? The two other contenders are fighter setup carriers at T6. The independence can go with a load out of two fighters on top of a base AA of 33. The ryujo can only ever have 1 fighter and a base AA of 41. The cleveland has an AA rating of 46 alongside a cooldown damage boost and single fighter. Now obviously this is assuming all players are trying to max their AA capacity. Factoring in the fighter groups available it would seem to me that either of those carriers has a combined raw AA output greater than that of the cleveland. Added to this, fighters mean that 100% of your AA is not limited to a dead zone around your ship. A flight of fighters can engage across the length and breadth of the map as needed while the clevelands is limited to a relatively small area around it.

 

So ask yourself this. What would happen to a flight of three torp bombers that try and torp an Independence which has its fighters playing escort? To my mind, at minimum two of those torp flights get tied up in dogfights, probably get reduced to nothing, and get off no torps. While one flight has to brave decent AA, which can probably account for one or maybe two before the carrier eats a couple of torps. The carrier will probably survive the encounter and at least two if not all three torp flights are pasted. Contrast that to a Cleveland. Even with the defensive fire thinning them out you are unlikely to down more than 6 planes in a single simultaneous attack run from three wings. That leaves enough torps in the water to cause serious damage if not death.

 

You see, to my mind the problem isnt with the ships AA, its with attacking a hard counter to your attack. Overflying a cleveland to torp a battleships he's escorting is as stupid as trying to fly your wing of torp bombers through an enemy fighter squad to torp the BB its escorting. I dont know of any player who seriously expects his torps to get through a fighter screen, so why expect them to breeze through a surface fired flak screen? Even as good as it is, it is less versatile and outright weaker than a fighter escort, so lay off the clevelands AA. If the cleveland player picks the AA skills and buys the AA improvments for his ship, and picks the defensive fire ability, then the bombers deserve a hard time trying to fly over it.

 

It's not like they cant just go around.

 

[Steevo]

I have been playing the Cleveland too, and like you, have played both CV lines in CBT. The current Cleveland is a very powerful airplane swatter, and it might need a little downgrading to make it perform more to the standard of the other tier 6 CA, the Aoba. However, I prefer too see it keep it's powerful AA role and make it's other great ability, the fast firing 155mm guns have a lower rate of fire. This way it can fill a role more closely resembling the tier 4 premium IJN CL, Yubari. I would like to see more american cruisers moving towards the role of AA fleet defenders in that regard.

[csebal]

Contrast that to a Cleveland. Even with the defensive fire thinning them out you are unlikely to down more than 6 planes in a single simultaneous attack run from three wings. That leaves enough torps in the water to cause serious damage if not death.

 

Last game I played my Cleveland, I downed 12 planes in one go. three IJN torp plane squadrons. I was out of position to boot, as the BB they were attacking was about 2km in front of me and the planes came in from the side, so they did not have to fly past me to do their attack. Out of the 12 planes, 3 managed to drop torps and miss due to confusion, the rest died before even reaching drop range.

 

Manual targeting of planes with defensive fire and AA built Cleveland can kill an insane amount of bombers. Any sane carrier will avoid Clevelands entirely.. just stay 7+ km away from them at all times with your planes. I sure as hell do and yes.. in some games this means that I starve to death or lose all my planes trying to break the brick wall of Cleveland's AA.

 

Do I think its imbalanced? Well.. defensive fire is a little OP to be honest, but apart from that, general AA power of the Cleveland is completely in line with other ships. The only real problem I see with defensive fire is that its a no brainer pick. The alternative sonar skill is just ridiculously pointless. Would there be some meaningful surface warfare oriented skill option to pick versus defensive fire, you would see more players playing with that and less players moan about cleveland's AA being OP, when in fact its his AA boosting skill that is over the top.

 

[m4inbrain]

The big problem with the Cleveland is not the AA. It's everything else. People would be fine if the only thing it could do would be AA, but tier for tier, it does everything and some on top. It has no drawbacks compared to any other ship. None. Citadels are impossible to hit below 8km range (well in the deadzone), it's fast, it's manouverable, it's pretty well armored, it has incredible AA (funny enough, almost better AA even than an Atlanta, and that thing is a dedicated AA ship with all the drawbacks like paper for armor and very low range on main guns) - did i miss something? 

 

Sorry for ranting, it's just that it starts to actually be pissing annoying that every moron and his brother can click you to death because he chose to drive a Cleveland.

 

edit: at above, you can't be serious. The general AA is in line with what ships? It has better AA than the pensacola (no, don't just look at the rating, look at the guns - cleveland almost doubles pensacolas 8x 127mm dp guns - and the same again for the new orleans), and the new orleans - starting with the baltimore, you get that power again, and that's a ship that goes against planes with alot more hitpoints and speed. Don't get me started on IJN AA, which is a joke. Not a single ship has better AA than a cleveland. If that is "in line" for you, i don't even.

 

PS: defensive fire is OP on the cleveland, but very much needed on pretty much any other cruiser out there. 

 

Sidenote: the smaller AA guns only work against idiotic cv captains who basically directly fly over your ship. The DP guns are what take out half or more of the enemy squads even before they reach the range of smaller calibers.

[OVanBruce]

At least make that citadel actually reachable. It feels like it is in the 5th dimension. It becomes ridiculous when I have to duel a Cleveland with a Myoko using HE or risk lots of my salvoes doing 420 damage despite perfectly falling in the correct spot.

[42ndHighland]

On the flip side I had a battle in my Cleveland against the Taiho (painful MM) which sent 3 TB squadrons against the BB I was escorting (2Km behind him). With the defensive fire frenzy activated and all 3 TB squadrons within 5Km I only managed to shoot down 1 plane and the BB swallowed 5torps and died. Not sure what my point is but it isn't all roses with the AA on the Cleveland, even with the frenzy fire activated.

 

Happy hunting sailors

[Darky_007]

So while mind numbingly counting something in work today this occurred to me, or at least the part of me not immediately busy counting anyway.

 

The whole question of AA ability on ships. Specifically viewed from the lens of seeing all those Cleveland OP!!! posts that spring up when a carrier overflies one. Now dont expect this to be some amazing insight or even a plain old rant. Think of it as something in between. Speaking for myself as someone who has a cleveland recently in OBT and hasnt touched a carrier since CBT I do chuckle evilly to myself when my AA gets a chance to go to town on something, but here's the thing. How effective in and of itself is a clevelands AA compared to other potential AA in its teir.

 

Sure it's clearly superior to other surface ships, but then again that isn't all that's in a game now is it? The two other contenders are fighter setup carriers at T6. The independence can go with a load out of two fighters on top of a base AA of 33. The ryujo can only ever have 1 fighter and a base AA of 41. The cleveland has an AA rating of 46 alongside a cooldown damage boost and single fighter. Now obviously this is assuming all players are trying to max their AA capacity. Factoring in the fighter groups available it would seem to me that either of those carriers has a combined raw AA output greater than that of the cleveland. Added to this, fighters mean that 100% of your AA is not limited to a dead zone around your ship. A flight of fighters can engage across the length and breadth of the map as needed while the clevelands is limited to a relatively small area around it.

 

So ask yourself this. What would happen to a flight of three torp bombers that try and torp an Independence which has its fighters playing escort? To my mind, at minimum two of those torp flights get tied up in dogfights, probably get reduced to nothing, and get off no torps. While one flight has to brave decent AA, which can probably account for one or maybe two before the carrier eats a couple of torps. The carrier will probably survive the encounter and at least two if not all three torp flights are pasted. Contrast that to a Cleveland. Even with the defensive fire thinning them out you are unlikely to down more than 6 planes in a single simultaneous attack run from three wings. That leaves enough torps in the water to cause serious damage if not death.

 

You see, to my mind the problem isnt with the ships AA, its with attacking a hard counter to your attack. Overflying a cleveland to torp a battleships he's escorting is as stupid as trying to fly your wing of torp bombers through an enemy fighter squad to torp the BB its escorting. I dont know of any player who seriously expects his torps to get through a fighter screen, so why expect them to breeze through a surface fired flak screen? Even as good as it is, it is less versatile and outright weaker than a fighter escort, so lay off the clevelands AA. If the cleveland player picks the AA skills and buys the AA improvments for his ship, and picks the defensive fire ability, then the bombers deserve a hard time trying to fly over it.

 

It's not like they cant just go around.

 

stop QQ about Cleveland OP

learn to play game with your ship

did you know that BB New York can sunk Cleveland in 2(two) salvos ???

Yes, Cleveland has strong offensive weapons, but if you hit him he will sunk.

and BTW, IJN DD and CA can spam torpedoes from 10+km, and yes, they can surprise you and sunk when you in middle of battle with some BB

[Sub_Eleven]

Although a tier higher, the Atlanta is the better

yet nobody complains about that ship.

[Memo1991]

I have been playing the Cleveland too, and like you, have played both CV lines in CBT. The current Cleveland is a very powerful airplane swatter, and it might need a little downgrading to make it perform more to the standard of the other tier 6 CA, the Aoba. However, I prefer too see it keep it's powerful AA role and make it's other great ability, the fast firing 155mm guns have a lower rate of fire. This way it can fill a role more closely resembling the tier 4 premium IJN CL, Yubari. I would like to see more american cruisers moving towards the role of AA fleet defenders in that regard.

 

Why Cleveland AA should be nerf to Aoba level, while Aoba is much smaller ship size in compression to the cleveland.

 

it simply balanced right now:

 

T6 IJN / Aoba has - bigger guns 203mm, torpedo tube, smaller ship size 

 

T6 USN / Cleve has - better AA guns and faster RPM, slightly higher HP.

 

[ttchip]

On the flip side I had a battle in my Cleveland against the Taiho (painful MM) which sent 3 TB squadrons against the BB I was escorting (2Km behind him). With the defensive fire frenzy activated and all 3 TB squadrons within 5Km I only managed to shoot down 1 plane and the BB swallowed 5torps and died. Not sure what my point is but it isn't all roses with the AA on the Cleveland, even with the frenzy fire activated.

 

Happy hunting sailors

 

Someone's going to tell you that cruisers are not supposed to shoot down planes. They're there to panic them. Unfortunately, said panic doesn't really pay.

 

Edit:

Why Cleveland AA should be nerf to Aoba level, while Aoba is much smaller ship size in compression to the cleveland.

 

it simply balanced right now:

 

T6 IJN / Aoba has - bigger guns 203mm, torpedo tube, smaller ship size 

 

T6 USN / Cleve has - better AA guns and faster RPM, slightly higher HP.

 

Cleveland is a much, MUCH more competent ship than Aoba at tier 6. It has incredible DPM with its main battery, incredible AA DPS relative to the planes it is supposed to meet, incredible durability thanks to a tiny citadel and above average speed and maneuverability. In fact, the only balancing factor is its shell arc. That's literally the only downside to that ship.

[AramilG]

 

Someone's going to tell you that cruisers are not supposed to shoot down planes. They're there to panic them. Unfortunately, said panic doesn't really pay.

 

Well, tier 6 cruiser vs tier 9 planes - anyone seriously think it should be able to slaughter multiple 3 tiers higher planes with only long range AA? Really?

 

Now, if BB managed to eat 5 torps from 3 panicked IJN sqads of TBs... he was probably vey, very bad and CV captain was very, very good.

[Odeasu]

I honestly dont understand all the Cleveland AA OP Threads. When you see a Cleveland you just have to turn your planes and evade, it's so easy !

 

No but honestely, i think the biggest problem right now is that many CV players just expect to kill everything without ever feeling the need to worry about their planes. The Cleveland is is to CV players what the Hosho and Zuiho is to BB players.

 

 

 

[42ndHighland]

 

Cleveland is a much, MUCH more competent ship than Aoba at tier 6. It has incredible DPM with its main battery, incredible AA DPS relative to the planes it is supposed to meet, incredible durability thanks to a tiny citadel and above average speed and maneuverability. In fact, the only balancing factor is its shell arc. That's literally the only downside to that ship.

 

 

Aoba is an awesome cruiser, the accuracy of those guns is amazing! Citadel anything you get in range of no problem.  Different story with the Cleveland, the firing arc is really high so it's only good for spamming HE at things, which is great at closer ranges but in a 1 v 1 at range Cleveland will lose against a skilled player in Aoba.

 

The IJN AA is quite rightly pretty inferior in comparison to the USN AA capability. It's not useless but is no where near as brutal or punishing on incoming aircraft.

[rado34]

 

Someone's going to tell you that cruisers are not supposed to shoot down planes. They're there to panic them. Unfortunately, said panic doesn't really pay.

 

Edit:

 

Cleveland is a much, MUCH more competent ship than Aoba at tier 6. It has incredible DPM with its main battery, incredible AA DPS relative to the planes it is supposed to meet, incredible durability thanks to a tiny citadel and above average speed and maneuverability. In fact, the only balancing factor is its shell arc. That's literally the only downside to that ship.

 

You want another downside? Its size. The Cleveland is as big as a BB! And when you talk about shell arc, you can say that if the enemy isn't sailing in straight line, it's almost impossible to hit at more than 11km. Ok for speed, but i'm not sure maneuvrability is above average.

 

It seems that people want to nerf it to the level of the aoba, except that it's bigger and has no torps.

[Unintentional_submarine]

Although a tier higher, the Atlanta is the better

yet nobody complains about that ship.

 

Arguably because it is 'one of those' Premiums. You can find absolute muppets sailing the Atlanta, who doesn't focus squadrons, who haven't gotten captain skills to benefit AA (and the main guns) and who haven't gotten the Defensive Fire installed. And without that, it's AA is, at best, annoying. With Defensive Fire and focus it is a long range force shield that planes simply can't enter. It's a bit of a hit-and-miss in regards to the Atlanta when you are a CV. But I agree, in the hands of someone who knows what he doing and has a capable captain, the Atlanta is much worse than the Cleveland.

[Memo1991]

 

You want another downside? Its size. The Cleveland is as big as a BB! And when you talk about shell arc, you can say that if the enemy isn't sailing in straight line, it's almost impossible to hit at more than 11km. Ok for speed, but i'm not sure maneuvrability is above average.

 

It seems that people want to nerf it to the level of the aoba, except that it's bigger and has no torps.

 

Exactly, people want to balance Cleveland to the Aoba level, while missing that Aoba has smaller size, torpedoes tubes and better guns.

 

I am Cleveland player and I avoid engaging with Aoba as much as possible because it has DD ship size and BB power guns.

Even the distance is with Aoba side, in closer range 203mm guns guaranteed painful Citadel hits and 10km+ range the shooting arc and shell travel time is just terrible.

 

I'm not suggesting to nerf any of them but rather I'm talking about my experience with game.

[Bl4ckh0g]

I do not understand these Cleveland OP threads.

 

Yes the Cleveland is OP.

 

It is OP mostly because the ship is a tier 8 CL not a tier 6, It is comparable(even better) than the Edinburgh-class of the RN(HMS Belfast)

 

The ship will be moved.

It will take time, because She will be part of the USN CL line, and some more reasonable ship(6 gun Pensacola design or 8-9 gun Brooklyn design) will take her place.

If you are interested about the potential replacements I and Deamon93 have a thread about them. Oakland-subclass, Potential tier 6 CL Issues in the US cruiser line

 

So, just bear with her, She will get some temporary fixes and after a while You can play her again in tier 8, Where She belongs.

 

[Memo1991]

I do not understand these Cleveland OP threads.

 

Yes the Cleveland is OP.

 

It is OP mostly because the ship is a tier 8 CL not a tier 6, It is comparable(even better) than the Edinburgh-class of the RN(HMS Belfast)

 

The ship will be moved.

It will take time, because She will be part of the USN CL line, and some more reasonable ship(6 gun Pensacola design or 8-9 gun Brooklyn design) will take her place.

If you are interested about the potential replacements I and Deamon93 have a thread about them. Oakland-subclass, Potential tier 6 CL Issues in the US cruiser line

 

So, just bear with her, She will get some temporary fixes and after a while You can play her again in tier 8, Where She belongs.

 

 

The exact quotation was "I honestly don't understand all the Cleveland AA OP",

No one say shouldn't be move up or down. Actually the thread main topic is all about AA.

[Bl4ckh0g]

 

The exact quotation was "I honestly don't understand all the Cleveland AA OP",

No one say shouldn't be move up or down. Actually the thread main topic is all about AA.

 

There are some replies about the Aoba vs Cleveland stuff, It was meant for them. And well, the Cleveland's AA is even nerfed down from her historical config, and It's still way better than anything in that tier.

At least make that citadel actually reachable. It feels like it is in the 5th dimension. It becomes ridiculous when I have to duel a Cleveland with a Myoko using HE or risk lots of my salvoes doing 420 damage despite perfectly falling in the correct spot.

 

Why is it so hard to citadel the Cleveland? 

 

Because of this:

[YukiEiriKun]

 

 

There are some replies about the Aoba vs Cleveland stuff, It was meant for them. And well, the Cleveland's AA is even nerfed down from her historical config, and It's still way better than anything in that tier.

 

Why is it so hard to citadel the Cleveland? 

 

Because of this:

 

Actually ingame Clevelands citadels are just those two boiler rooms (of which the stern most your arrow points) and those engine rooms in between and behind are not part of the "citadel" in the model.

 

 

*****EDIT*****

Something is wrong with my "quote" button today.. It keeps making two quotes every time of the same post.

[Unintentional_submarine]

Actually ingame Clevelands citadels are just those two boiler rooms (of which the stern most your arrow points) and those engine rooms in between and behind are not part of the "citadel" in the model.

 

Indeed. It is that gap between the boilers that make it hard to hit the citadel, and it is of course rather short too since the rear engine room isn't counted as well. And of course, the gap is in the place where everyone aims, below the smoke stacks.

[Tubit101]

funny enough, almost better AA even than an Atlanta, and that thing is a dedicated AA ship with all the drawbacks like paper for armor and very low range on main guns

 

Wrong. This has been tested because of the same claims that you are stating here. Test data shows that the Atlanta AA is about 30% more effective than the Cleveland AA.

 

[Steevo]

The reason a lot of CV players might get a shock from this ship is also due to players at tier 6 having the secondary armament skills, both level 1 and 3, which boost the performance of both it's Main battery and AA guns, I have those skills myself, plus the AA gun upgrade in the second upgrade slot to boost the AA power and range up by 40% and the reload by 10%, couple that with focused firing on a single squadron and the suppression skill you get a huge buff to the stats.

[xiaobaozha]

 

 

Aoba is an awesome cruiser, the accuracy of those guns is amazing! Citadel anything you get in range of no problem.  Different story with the Cleveland, the firing arc is really high so it's only good for spamming HE at things, which is great at closer ranges but in a 1 v 1 at range Cleveland will lose against a skilled player in Aoba.

 

The IJN AA is quite rightly pretty inferior in comparison to the USN AA capability. It's not useless but is no where near as brutal or punishing on incoming aircraft.

 

This has been my experience too!

[DtXpwnz]

I have been playing the Cleveland too, and like you, have played both CV lines in CBT. The current Cleveland is a very powerful airplane swatter, and it might need a little downgrading to make it perform more to the standard of the other tier 6 CA, the Aoba.

The thing about Cleveland's AA is that it has 36 DPS of DP guns (5km range aura), it is this aura that gets multiplied by 9 (!!!) when you click on enemy planes and start your special ability. Both Pepsicola and New Orleans have only 24 DPS on their DP guns and you have to wait until Baltimore to get this 36 DPS back. However, I don't consider it OP, it is AA speciliazed cruiser...

 

On the other hand, something should be done with Atlanta that gets 48 DPS ... which is insane.