Bismarck

[armholeeio]

The wiki page said she was partially scuttled before the Russian got her, refloated and sunk as target practice. Looks like the graff zeppelin suffered because after the occupation of Norway the Germans needed the aaa and the naval guns for the Norwegian Coastal defence. Buy the time the German high command realised the effectiveness of carriers in 40/41 after the British and Japanese used them against harboured fleets it was restated as a project with

a estimated finish time in 43 but abandoned again due to hitler being a near sighted morron and felt the kreigsmarine didn't deserve resources or replacement vessels due to the perceived failure of the surface fleet. Thank god the Germans were lumbered with the little Austrian corporal. imagine a führer who was actually competent and listened to his advisors and not implemented a bizarre system of government and supply chaines ( 3 departments/PA to the führer with no idea who was higher up the food chain, or branches of the military fighting over supply chaines, hell even no common vehicle parts like with the allies).

[G01ngToxicCommand0]

On the dives they could see the tops of the turrets blown off due to an outward explosion or damaged with shell holes,  some of the turrets lay at the side of the ships so they could see the turret mechanisms along with the explosive damage and inside the ship with ROV's, The other thing is sailors of the day admitted to such activities, they also found cordite casings all over the ships from the turrets going as far down in to the magazines. They could look into the magazines and also the turrets, the evidence was quite conclusive, cordite casings was all over.

 

The armor of the ships was what it was, it was possible to hit the magazine but the odds on doing that were considered low...Ultimately at the outset of the battle there were Battle Cruisers broadsiding the German fleet, the issue they had with this is that in a battle line the RN battle cruisers where often targeting a single German ship which means that if two ships target the same ship they couldn't gauge the splashes or who's splash belonged to who so the German Navy stuck to single ships so they hit their targets first because they could gauge the splashes and then adjust for their next shot.

 

During this early engagement we lost valuable ships due to a lack of precision and the ability to gauge the shots before the Germans did so we took a real battering which brought about the shocking early losses which was a total surprise, the Grand fleet was miles behind the RN Battle Cruisers but they turned and head back towards our main fleet with the Germans following.

 

While this was happening the Grand Fleet (The main fleet of RN Dreadnoughts) where in a box formation and then in a daring attempt which could of been costly had it not worked ...formed a line broadside on laying and awaiting for the German fleet, this line was miles long.

 

The German fleet came in range and they bombarded the German fleet that approached, but again suddenly one of the best ships in the fleet went boom, something was wrong, they could not understand what was happening they lost one of their bigger ships just like the Battle Cruisers.

 

The story of the battle goes along the lines of the German Fleet retreating, then they come about to try and outflank the RN Fleet not realizing that the entire RN Grand Fleet was in a Battle line something like 8 or so miles long so again the RN lay in wait and then open fire again on the German Fleet, and again they get a battering but so did the Royal Navy.  We didn't win the battle outright we won what was a Navy Term of controlling the sea or something like that stopping the German Navy from coming out into the North Sea again.

 

Long story short they examined all the ships they could which was most of the lost ships, along with all evidence from the day and examined the ships in the dive, the experts all came to the same conclusion due to over arming the ships and the slack way in which cordite was stored and managed and then distributed.

 

Plenty of senior officers from the day all said their was something wrong with their ships and they needed this sorting, needless to say our hero's of Jutland became Sea Lords so they could not allow such controversy to break out after being promoted, this created controversy over time resulting in the dive and thirst for evidence..... its very believable

 

 

 

 

 

I can't remember if it was in 'Jutland An Analysis Of The Fighting' by John Campbell or it was in 'Dreadnought Gunnery and the Battle of Jutland' that stated that the german battlecruisers and battleships actually had worse propellant charge's safety and were far more exposed to flash than the RN and that the only reason the germans didn't lose 3 or more capital ships that day was because the german propellant charges needed much higher temperatures to ignite and when so did not explode as cordite did but rather it burned and also at lower temperatures which also made it less likely to ignite again lowering the probability of a catastrophic and cataclysmic propellant charges fire and explosion.

 

Had the germans used cordite instead they would have suffered similar or worse losses than the RN according to hits and damage analysis according to the above.

[PanzyBattalion]

[Bergwolf]

 

Sorry, couldn't help making myself look important, too.

[KMS_Tirpitz]

 

[KMS_Tirpitz]

 

I can't remember if it was in 'Jutland An Analysis Of The Fighting' by John Campbell or it was in 'Dreadnought Gunnery and the Battle of Jutland' that stated that the german battlecruisers and battleships actually had worse propellant charge's safety and were far more exposed to flash than the RN and that the only reason the germans didn't lose 3 or more capital ships that day was because the german propellant charges needed much higher temperatures to ignite and when so did not explode as cordite did but rather it burned and also at lower temperatures which also made it less likely to ignite again lowering the probability of a catastrophic and cataclysmic propellant charges fire and explosion.

 

Had the germans used cordite instead they would have suffered similar or worse losses than the RN according to hits and damage analysis according to the above.

 

Well considering that the Germans had the highest hit percentage during Jutland then I doubt that

British Battle Cruisers and Battleship

Shells fired = 4534  

Hits=123

Percentage of hits/shell fired = 2.71%  

 

German Battle Cruisers and Battleship

Shells fired = 3597

Hits = 122

Percentage of hits/shell fired = 3.39%

[armholeeio]

That's almost American in accuracy terms

[KMS_Tirpitz]

That's almost American in accuracy terms

 

Not sure what you mean by that?

 

[BuccaneerBill]

 

I can't remember if it was in 'Jutland An Analysis Of The Fighting' by John Campbell or it was in 'Dreadnought Gunnery and the Battle of Jutland' that stated that the german battlecruisers and battleships actually had worse propellant charge's safety and were far more exposed to flash than the RN and that the only reason the germans didn't lose 3 or more capital ships that day was because the german propellant charges needed much higher temperatures to ignite and when so did not explode as cordite did but rather it burned and also at lower temperatures which also made it less likely to ignite again lowering the probability of a catastrophic and cataclysmic propellant charges fire and explosion.

 

Had the germans used cordite instead they would have suffered similar or worse losses than the RN according to hits and damage analysis according to the above.

 

 

Yes I think at least 3 of the German Battlecruisers would have been sunk if they had the same flash problems the RN had in the battle.  That's Lutzow like in IRL along with Seydlitz and Derfflinger IMO.  The British Battlecruiser's got a bad reputation at Jutland but they might have all survived if they enforced strict flash procedures, which was doubly needed because of the use of cordite. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[Thonar]

Yes I think at least 3 of the German Battlecruisers would have been sunk if they had the same flash problems the RN had in the battle.  That's Lutzow like in IRL along with Seydlitz and Derfflinger IMO.  The British Battlecruiser's got a bad reputation at Jutland but they might have all survived if they enforced strict flash procedures, which was doubly needed because of the use of cordite. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

Sorry... but... this is just so... so...

 

 

... you could also say: Well, would the British have had Laser-Weapons and the Germans only wooden-boats, the Royal Navy might have had fewer losses.

[Trigger_Happy_Dad]

 

 

 

[Lance_Horne]

You can post all the statistics you like, it was the result that counted, the Royal Navy forced the Kriegsmarine back to port.

I wonder why it never came out again to face them? 

[Thonar]

You can post all the statistics you like, it was the result that counted, the Royal Navy forced the Kriegsmarine back to port.

I wonder why it never came out again to face them? 

 

 

 

[Don71]

You can post all the statistics you like, it was the result that counted, the Royal Navy forced the Kriegsmarine back to port.

I wonder why it never came out again to face them? 

 

Hello,

 

first that's not correct, there were many raids of german capital ships after Jutland.

Second the Kriegmarine was the german navy of WWII and has not much to do with the german imperial Navy.

 

[Lance_Horne]

 

Hello,

 

first that's not correct, there were many raids of german capital ships after Jutland.

Second the Kriegmarine was the german navy of WWII and has not much to do with the german imperial Navy.

 

 

I accept my mistake calling the  German Imperial Navy the Kriegsmarine and the Imperial Navy may have come out on the odd raid or two,  but the point I was trying to make was, it nether again came out in force to face the Grand fleet.

[KMS_Tirpitz]

 

I accept my mistake calling the  German Imperial Navy the Kriegsmarine and the Imperial Navy may have come out on the odd raid or two,  but the point I was trying to make was, it nether again came out in force to face the Grand fleet.

 

It didn't need to, the Uboats were doing the damage and the grand fleet could do nothing about that.

[Lance_Horne]

 

It didn't need to, the Uboats were doing the damage and the grand fleet could do nothing about that.

 

The Uboat campaign was reasonable succesful, but it cost Germany 178 boats and  for all the U-boats efforts they never  wrestled control of the sea from the Royal Navy, also the U-boats were used because the German Imperial Navy knew it would not win an outright confrontation with the Grand fleet. Do you really think Scheer would have retreated to port at the of battle Jutland if he thought he could have won.

For all Germany efforts in both world wars and there is no denying the skill and bravery of their sailors and the quality of their ships, they never came close to beating the Royal Navy.