Bismarck

[Jaeger_Bomb_Meister]

 

 

[ThePluckyBrit]

Bismark was capable but far from exceptional.

 

What she was in reality was a massive Nazi propaganda device and when she sank the Hood within a few salvos her place in history as the Infamous Bismark was cemented, that is why she had to be sunk, and that is why she was sunk.

 

Propaganda warfare is a powerful tool, as effective as any man made creation of steel and cannon.

 

Was she an amazing technical marvel of the ocean? No, but boy was she infamous, and like a certain day in 1941, the Bismark will live in Infamy and will benefit from that mystique from people that watch half baked documentaries and movie's created by the victors.

 

Many say that Hannibal wasn't the great strategist that history has hailed him, the Romans wrote that history and who wants to yell about defeating a one trick pony with a few elephants.

 

Propaganda, it's powerful.

[KMS_Tirpitz]

Bismark was capable but far from exceptional.

 

What she was in reality was a massive Nazi propaganda device and when she sank the Hood within a few salvos her place in history as the Infamous Bismark was cemented, that is why she had to be sunk, and that is why she was sunk.

 

Propaganda warfare is a powerful tool, as effective as any man made creation of steel and cannon.

 

Was she an amazing technical marvel of the ocean? No, but boy was she infamous, and like a certain day in 1941, the Bismark will live in Infamy and will benefit from that mystique from people that watch half baked documentaries and movie's created by the victors.

 

Many say that Hannibal wasn't the great strategist that history has hailed him, the Romans wrote that history and who wants to yell about defeating a one trick pony with a few elephants.

 

Propaganda, it's powerful.

 

It works the other way round mate, the victors usually glorify their own achievements and overexaggerate the complexity of their own equipment. 

 

The Bismarck was so mercilessly hunted down because she WAS a big threat, and enormous resources were spent on destroying the Tirpitz for the very same reason. The capability of these ships were feared, and with good reason as was seen at the Denmark Strait, as they were infact the most potent battleships afloat until the US Iowa class was introduced. In short the British never built a battleship that could rival the Bismarck class, thus they desperately wanted them sunk.

[Gotenadler91]

Hey guys...I recommend to take off your pants before watching it

 

[Lance_Horne]

 

It works the other way round mate, the victors usually glorify their own achievements and overexaggerate the complexity of their own equipment. 

 

The Bismarck was so mercilessly hunted down because she WAS a big threat, and enormous resources were spent on destroying the Tirpitz for the very same reason. The capability of these ships were feared, and with good reason as was seen at the Denmark Strait, as they were infact the most potent battleships afloat until the US Iowa class was introduced. In short the British never built a battleship that could rival the Bismarck class, thus they desperately wanted them sunk.

 

Yet the Royal Navy's ships were good enough to sink these super Kriegsmarine battleships, the truth is every time they went to sea they were hunted down by the Royal Navy in their "inferior" ships and sunk or chased back to port.

[_Maou_]

Bismarck was powerful and a formidable ship,but be realistic and look at her stats mate,she is way to overhyped than what she actually was,there were many just as-or more powerful ships than her and KGV and Rodney showed her that.And about historical reload of guns no,the upper comments explain everything and there are already ships ingame with unhistorical gun reloads so don't keep you hopes to high(Nagato for example).The British never built a battleships matching the BIsmarck clas....ehh i can see you great and wast knowledge of the RN and let me guess not even the americans or japanese had the ship to rival her..yeah Bismarck was the strongest and best battleship ever built...sigh.

[Deamon93]

Well it wouldn't be that difficult to look strong against a very old BC and a BB which was thrown into the fight even though she wasn't ready. That's due to the fact that the Brits were the last in the new BB train and, for some reason, they decided to stick to the London Treaty even though it failed.

[_Maou_]

Well it wouldn't be that difficult to look strong against a very old BC and a BB which was thrown into the fight even though she wasn't ready. That's due to the fact that the Brits were the last in the new BB train and, for some reason, they decided to stick to the London Treaty even though it failed.

 

Because they were too arrogant and to stuck up on their power...and frankly stupid if you ask me..if Hood would have gone to the refit we would be reading about a fail german bb but it's a speculation,but we have gone though this in another topic...But KGV class could have been on par with Bismarck(even POW which couldn't fire because of it's gun jamming managed to fire a few shells on Bismarck which hit and caused damage,it really shows you that they could have won,just luck wasn't on their side)..but history proved what happens when you rush unfinished weapons on the battlefield .But then again Germany had only four noteworthy ships,which the british had around 20(around i'm not sure for the exact number) and all of those ships were spread among the globe and against the powerful navies(German Japanese and Italian) and still came out victorious(with Japanese they had great help from Americans).

[principat121]

1) No

Tirpitz was better, and even H39 (if finished) was or would be better. And these were just german naval vessels. One could expect that the british Vanguard-class and the US Iowa-class were better ships in a direct fight. Bismarck just lives from its created myth. Just like the "famous" Tiger-tank. Everbody knows them, but their real influence in battle was not crucial.

2) No

Come on, that's a silly question. Everbody knows the the main aspect of the german Kreigsmarine was the conducting of a commerce war against Britain and her allies. That's what they did in WW I and WW II. Building some huge BB and CC is more for prestiges reasons than for real warfare reasons.

[_Maou_]

1) No

Tirpitz was better, and even H39 (if finished) was or would be better. And these were just german naval vessels. One could expect that the british Vanguard-class and the US Iowa-class were better ships in a direct fight. Bismarck just lives from its created myth. Just like the "famous" Tiger-tank. Everbody knows them, but their real influence in battle was not crucial.

2) No

Come on, that's a silly question. Everbody knows the the main aspect of the german Kreigsmarine was the conducting of a commerce war against Britain and her allies. That's what they did in WW I and WW II. Building some huge BB and CC is more for prestiges reasons than for real warfare reasons.

 

I agree and also people focus too much on those two battleships if you ask me Germans deserve much more respect in their submarine warfare,because that's what they mostly focused on and that's where they did more damage

[KMS_Tirpitz]

 

Yet the Royal Navy's ships were good enough to sink these super Kriegsmarine battleships, the truth is every time they went to sea they were hunted down by the Royal Navy in their "inferior" ships and sunk or chased back to port.

 

The fate of both was sealed via airpower and torpedos, RN battleships really achieved very little during WW2, they litterally didn't sink a single other BB via their own gunfire.

[KMS_Tirpitz]

What needs to be kept in mind is that by 1944 the Tirpitz featured a fire control system equal to that of the Iowa class, esp. the FuMO 26 3x6m & FuMO 231 Euklid FCS & search radars were impressive, as the Prinz Eugen demonstrated during a practice shoot on her way to the US immediately after the war. This coupled with the best optical FCS available (insolated & coated), impressive armour and guns more powerful than any found on a British BB made her a force to be reckoned with, hence why the British put so much effort into sinking her. 

 

By comparison the Bismarck was even more of a threat in 41, however the Allies had luck on their side with regards to their swordfish strike and the broken down FC radar on the Bismarck, leaving her helpless and surrounded whilst sailing in a predictable circle. Hitting the rudder really was the best possible outcome the British could've hoped for.

[_Maou_]

 

The fate of both was sealed via airpower and torpedos, RN battleships really achieved very little during WW2, they litterally didn't sink a single other BB via their own gunfire.

 

Look who's talking your "superior" ships didn't do anything,yes they sank Hood but all others got hunted down and got sunk meanwhile the british(for example:Warspite)did very much but i guess your wast and great knowledge of ships in ww2 is better than common history,and warspite is only one of examples.EVERY major sinking of british ships,done by the Germans, was done by a sub (except Hood and few others) meanwhile the british form air and ships.THERE IS A REASON WHY GERMANY FOCUSED ON SUB WARFARE.

What needs to be kept in mind is that by 1944 the Tirpitz featured a fire control system equal to that of the Iowa class, esp. the FuMO 26 3x6m & FuMO 231 Euklid FCS & search radars were impressive, as the Prinz Eugen demonstrated during a practice shoot on her way to the US immediately after the war. This coupled with the best optical FCS available (insolated & coated), impressive armour and guns more powerful than any found on a British BB made her a force to be reckoned with, hence why the British put so much effort into sinking her. 

 

By comparison the Bismarck was even more of a threat in 41, however the Allies had luck on their side with regards to their swordfish strike and the broken down FC radar on the Bismarck, leaving her helpless and surrounded whilst sailing in a predictable circle. Hitting the rudder really was the best possible outcome the British could've hoped for.

 

"The best possible outcome",oh please don't delude yourself.In worst case scenario the Bismarck would have made it to France,would have been mended and when she would try to sail she would be welcomed by your "inferior" navy which was strongest in the world accompanied with the help of "inferior' RAF which survived BOB even though Germans had FIVE TIMES MORE PLANES THAN THE RAF.And RAF's  Lancaster's would have cripled your prized ships while they are accompanied by the Spitfire's and if the planes would have been launched from a CV there would be dozens of little stringbags willing to follow day and night your prized ship and show her her actual worth.BISMARCK COULDN'T HAVE ALONE MAKE A STAND AGAINST THE POWER OF RN AND RAF.She would have been a real menace if she was accompanied by her sister Tirpitz along with Scnarcost and Gneisau but germans abandoned that idea(idk why and frankly i'm not that interested).

[Lance_Horne]

 

The fate of both was sealed via airpower and torpedos, RN battleships really achieved very little during WW2, they litterally didn't sink a single other BB via their own gunfire.

 

Who sunk the Krieksmarine's ships the Royal navy and Royal Airforce, whatever means were used they ended up on the bottom, end of story, basically, and I dont like saying this because I accept the bravery of the crews of the ships  of the German navy, the Kriegmarine for all their super ships was a failure in both worlds wars, at the end of both conflicts the Royal Navy had driven them off the high seas, you may not like it and you can twist it anyway you like, but the facts speak for themselves, the Royal Navy won.

[Jaeger_1496]

Well, here's my spiel, take it or leave it

 

      Hitler had a thing for incompetent wastes of steel, thing about the Schwerer Gustav, the Maus, or hell the H44 thingie I keep seeing all over this forum. Projects that lead to the attempt at mass production of things like the King Tiger or Tiger tanks (never got far compliments of relentless carpet bombing of Germany) were a few that made it into reality. The Bismarck I put into this category with the above stated tanks. It was entirely unnecessary, it was vulnerable in a plethora of ways (even without factoring Germany's starving fuel economy), and was not what should have been prioritised I.e destroyers and U-Boots. So what became of all that wasted resources? A relatively good, but ultimately obsolete BB that was undone by relatively cheap aircraft and a flotilla of cheaper destroyers and cruisers. Aircraft and sonar/radar equipped vessels dominated the oceans basically on the onset of WWII. It was carriers and submarines that won the Pacific, and destroyers, aircraft, and subs that did a lot of the damage in the Atlantic theatre. 

 

   Now after all this, you may think that I don't like the Bismarck or the Tiger. You'd be wrong ;) I LOVE the Tiger tank, despite all its flaws, it still has one feature that makes it stand out: I personally find it badass. Same with the Bismarck. In the end, that's really all that matters. Don't be discouraged by people who tell you that your preference is stupid in comparison to theirs, because in the end, what you think is cool and what works best for you is, ultimately, the best for you! The Bismarck may not have been the best, but damn it if I won't be buying it lol. 

 

Fair winds and following seas fellow sailors o7

[KMS_Tirpitz]

Seems I struck a nerve ^^  Guys keep believing what you want to believe, I am just stating the obvious whilst providing some technical details to show how that was the case.

 

The Bismarck class was not the best battleship of the war, that honor belongs to the Iowa class IMHO. However calling her obsolete is just downright silly, for two years (40-42) she was the best and most powerful BB afloat, and the Tirpitz continued to rank amongst the top 3 for the entirety of the war, although I would argue she was superior to the Yamato due to her all important radar guided FCS, something the Yamato lacked.

[_Maou_]

Seems I struck a nerve ^^  Guys keep believing what you want to believe, I am just stating the obvious whilst providing some technical details to show how that was the case.

 

The Bismarck class was not the best battleship of the war, that honor belongs to the Iowa class IMHO. However calling her obsolete is just downright silly, for two years (40-42) she was the best and most powerful BB afloat, and the Tirpitz continued to rank amongst the top 3 for the entirety of the war, although I would argue she was superior to the Yamato due to her all important radar guided FCS, something the Yamato lacked.

Iowa better than yamato..that's a new one....and thinking bismarck was the strongest...ehh why do i even bother...tirpitz bettee than yamato...ok that's truly a new one and it really says how much you love the ship and belittle the others..believe what you want mate but keep it moderate.

[KMS_Tirpitz]

Maou you don't seem to understand how important the fire control system is to the combat capability of the ship. Both the Tirpitz & Iowa could fire accurately whilst maneuvering, in the dark, beyond the visual horizon - the Yamato could not. 

 

What good is it to have the thickest armour and biggest guns if you can't hit yet alone see your enemy? Think about that for a second

 

Also believe it or not I am not being biased here, eventhough I do understand that my nick doesn't really help to convey that ;) 

[HaachamaShipping]

Bismarck was not the greatest ship of all time and it was not a very useful ship in the war, but I'd say, it was for itself, a decent ship. IHer greatest flaws were that the navy she was in had too few surface combattants to do much with her and thus even if she had not been sunk, she'd sit in port like Tirpitz for the remainder of the war. But otherwhise, she had a good few solid stats. Nothing out of the ordinary, quite conservative, but German battleships failed in WWI due to numerical inferiority, not because of significant design flaws.

 

That the Bismarck sank Hood was on the one hand luck, on the other hand, I dunno, the Hood was a battlecruiser of pre-Jutland design, the Bismarck was the continuation of battleship tradition from Jutland, and British battlecruiser performance at Jutland was partly not much better than the fight between Bismarck and Hood. Battlecruisers are in their element killing other cruisers, not in killing battleships.

 

And the decision to build battleships may seem pretty dumb, given how aircraft were killing them in WWII, but up to WWII, most nations measured naval strength in battle ships, not aircraft carriers. Because it was Taranto, Pearl Harbour and the sinking of HMS Repulse and HMS Prince of Wales that demonstrated clearly that battleships are vulnerable to air attack. So the Kriegsmarine was not alone in deeming battleships the main weapon of a surface navy. You can see that also in how naval treaties treated battleships and carriers, limiting both, but allowing nations to take their surplus battleships and convert them to carriers.

 

Also, the German rationale behind building such a naval force wasn't really to fight a decisive battle against the British. The Germans wouldn't ever get that far. The construction of battleships for the Kriegsmarine was founded half on pride, half on the lesser naval enemy of France, in the misguided hope that Britain could stay neutral or even be a Germanic ally of the German people (where it was again hoped, like pre-WWI, that a strong navy might convince them to be friends with Germany). These political misperceptions may seem dumb now, but they had been around for decades among the German decisionmakers and they weren't going to be disproven till after WWII, when decades went past and we now know what happened historically and we have access to the archives.

[_Maou_]

Maou you don't seem to understand how important the fire control system is to the combat capability of the ship. Both the Tirpitz & Iowa could fire accurately whilst maneuvering, in the dark, beyond the visual horizon - the Yamato could not. 

 

What good is it to have the thickest armour and biggest guns if you can't hit yet alone see your enemy? Think about that for a second

 

Also believe it or not I am not being biased here, eventhough I do understand that my nick doesn't really help to convey that ;) 

 

I understand,but Yamato would sink Tirpitz and Bismarck period no discussion there,if you want to discuss more sure go ahead i won't comment anymore because i can see you like the ship etc and there's no point arguing there i was stupid even for answering but i got pissed for belittling the RN,her ships and other navies.You like the ship,go ahead,think it would sink alone every force in the world,go ahead but as i said you're underestemating a lot of other things mate.Just as i have opinion on Bismarck(good ship but way to overhyped) and that opinion won't change nor my opinion about the Hood and the RN.And nick doesn't have to do much,my moto is "Rule Britannia,rule the waves" so we're in the same boat here

[JonasHorsti]

Maou you don't seem to understand how important the fire control system is to the combat capability of the ship. Both the Tirpitz & Iowa could fire accurately whilst maneuvering, in the dark, beyond the visual horizon - the Yamato could not. 

 

What good is it to have the thickest armour and biggest guns if you can't hit yet alone see your enemy? Think about that for a second

 

Also believe it or not I am not being biased here, eventhough I do understand that my nick doesn't really help to convey that ;) 

 

Don't waste your time, Tirpitz. Maou is just a Royal Navy fanboy who can't stand the fact, that there was no British BB that could match the technical superiority of the Bismarck class and that his precious Empire was almost defeted twice by a state which had less than a quarter of their resources and managed to achieve something in 50 years, what they needed 500 years and countless colonys for.

 

[byronicasian]

Man, this thread needs to be crossposted on /r/shitwehraboossay.... the delusions are real...

[forumaccount]

so.... any ideas when the bismarck/tirpitz premium ship will be released?

[byronicasian]

Maybe this next big patch. At the latest, end of August is my guess. 

[KMS_Tirpitz]

 

I understand,but Yamato would sink Tirpitz and Bismarck period no discussion there,if you want to discuss more sure go ahead i won't comment anymore because i can see you like the ship etc and there's no point arguing there i was stupid even for answering but i got pissed for belittling the RN,her ships and other navies.You like the ship,go ahead,think it would sink alone every force in the world,go ahead but as i said you're underestemating a lot of other things mate.Just as i have opinion on Bismarck(good ship but way to overhyped) and that opinion won't change nor my opinion about the Hood and the RN.And nick doesn't have to do much,my moto is "Rule Britannia,rule the waves" so we're in the same boat here

 

Well obviously you don't understand when you say stuff like that

 

So let me ask you again: What good is the thickest armour and biggest guns if you can't track or even see your target?

 

The Tirpitz had full blindfire capability and was was able to direct accurate fire on an enemy vessel from over 35 km away, in the dark and whilst it itself was maneuvering. The Iowa was capable of the same, and with a more powerful armament to boot. What on earth could the Yamato do to counter this? It was slower than both the Tirpitz & Iowa, so it couldn't run away or dictate the engagement range. In other words it's only option is to initiate evasive action whilst it attempts to aim for the flashes in the distance. The only end result of such a scenario would be a completely incapacitated and burning Yamato after the first hour of the engagement, and whilst she might not sink due to direct fire from the enemy, her own crew would surely end up scuttling her to keep her from falling into the hands of the enemy.