Bismarck

[nikon56]

As the cryhavoc mentioned a lot would depend on circumstances: bismarck had good vertical armor with slopes of the deck behind the belt so at short to med ranges it was well protected indeed. On the other hand on long distances it's deck armor wouldn't be much problem - especially to US guns. Even Jean Barts much thicker deck didn't stop a US 16" shell that went directly into magazine of secondary guns (luckily empty at the time). Also bismarck guns had very flat trajectory optimized for short to med range combat. On the other hand let's remember that it got defeated by Rodney whose guns couldn't hit a barn from the inside and KGV whose guns were jammin all the time so I'd call it's performance dissapointing... All the legends about it come from the lukcy shot it scored on hood rather than from it's design.

 

actually the shell penetrated on a place where the armor wasn't finished, Jean bart wasn't completed when it fled st nazaire (hence why the 152mm magazine was empty, the turret wasn't even there, also only the front turret was complete, the 2nd lacked the guns and the armor), and the armor that was penetrated was planned to be thicker, starting on the Gascogne (4th of the Richelieu class) then retrofitted on the first three.

 

to be noted that 7 16" (406mm) hit it, only one penetrated btw....

[Magni56]

The Bismarck and her sister ship Tirpitz were the best battleships in the world until the Iowa was launched, and with its added modifications the Tirpitz was arguably the 2nd best battleship in the world in 1944, again only bested by the Iowa.  The Yamato, whilst most certainly the most powerful battleship of WW2, lagged behind in FC to be considered the best, limiting it to daylight operations.

 

Had the Japanese developed their radar tech further the Yamato would've arguably been the best, but fortunately for the US they didn't, which is surprising considering that they had developed the cavity magnetron even before the British. That having been said the latest radar on the Yamato could be used for accurate range keeping, however bearing was still an issue and thus she was limited to accurate fire during the day.

 

 

Hahahaha, no.

 

The Iowas would mince her. The Yamato would mince her. (And had in fact better FCS than anything the Kriegsmarine ever designed, both radar and optical.) The South Dakotas would mince her. The North Carolinas would mince her. The Littorios would mince her. Nagato would mince her. Rodney would (and did) mince her. Hell, I wouldn't bet on her vs a refit Pennsylvania or New Mexico and would give her at best equal odds against any of the KGVs.

 

 

Well your wording "defeated by Rodney" is simply ... interessting not to say arguable.

 

Considering Rodney pounded Bismarck into a completely defenseless glorified target ship within less than 20 minutes, I'd say it is very much *not* arguable that Bismarck was in fact conclusively and undeniably defeated by her. At that point it makes no difference whatsoever how long it takes to sink the bloody thing, you have all the time in the world to do it.

 

[Rosetta_and_Philae]

In her day she was indeed the mightiest, don't get me wrong the US and UK BB's were on very similar levels at this point but the sheer menacing potential of the Bis could not have been taken lightly.  Of course most BB's after the Bis were superior, that is like comparing a T-34 medium tank against an IS heavy tank.  The differences in tech and design evolution stand out by miles.  If the successive H-Class's were built then the Iowa's etc would have been deeply concerned so yes the Bis stands very well against the ships in her time.  

The RN had numerous BB's and Germany pretty much had two yet the RN truly was rattled by the thought of these two ships and for good reason as history shows us.  

[Rosetta_and_Philae]

Oh and by the way the Bis for me is the most beautiful BB ever built 

 

[Thonar]

 

Hahahaha, no.

 

The Iowas would mince her. The Yamato would mince her. (And had in fact better FCS than anything the Kriegsmarine ever designed, both radar and optical.) The South Dakotas would mince her. The North Carolinas would mince her. The Littorios would mince her. Nagato would mince her. Rodney would (and did) mince her. Hell, I wouldn't bet on her vs a refit Pennsylvania or New Mexico and would give her at best equal odds against any of the KGVs.

 

 

Considering Rodney pounded Bismarck into a completely defenseless glorified target ship within less than 20 minutes, I'd say it is very much *not* arguable that Bismarck was in fact conclusively and undeniably defeated by her. At that point it makes no difference whatsoever how long it takes to sink the bloody thing, you have all the time in the world to do it.

 

 

 

Yamato: The optical FCS were on par, in Radar the Germans were ahead. Still Yamato would probably win such a Matchup.

Iowa: Would win.

Littorios: On par pretty much.

North Carolina: On par to worse.

The rest of the ships you mentioned are not on par and range from slightly worse to worse with chances.

 

But such comparisons are always flawed and stupid... not to mention that several of these ships would never meet in the way we know them.

Iowa and Yamato may well get pounded by Bismarck in the North-Atlantic, while at the same time a South-Dakota or New-Mexico could shred a Bismarck to pieces with the right circumstances.

 

"Rodney defeated Bismarck": Nope, Ark-Royal did. As Bismarck met Rodney and KGV she was already unable to fight back.

[KMS_Tirpitz]

 

Hahahaha, no.

 

The Iowas would mince her. The Yamato would mince her. (And had in fact better FCS than anything the Kriegsmarine ever designed, both radar and optical.) The South Dakotas would mince her. The North Carolinas would mince her. The Littorios would mince her. Nagato would mince her. Rodney would (and did) mince her. Hell, I wouldn't bet on her vs a refit Pennsylvania or New Mexico and would give her at best equal odds against any of the KGVs.

 

 

Considering Rodney pounded Bismarck into a completely defenseless glorified target ship within less than 20 minutes, I'd say it is very much *not* arguable that Bismarck was in fact conclusively and undeniably defeated by her. At that point it makes no difference whatsoever how long it takes to sink the bloody thing, you have all the time in the world to do it.

 

 

Nope.

 

The only battleship that really beat the Bismarck class overall was the Iowa, the Yamato quite simply lacked the FCS & radar to compare. Sure the Yamato's rangefinder was big, but the Japanese didn't utilize anti reflective coatings on their lenses, only the Germans did and it gave them a major advantage, which is no doubt part of the reason the Germans were always so quick to get on target when utilizing optical FC. Furthermore the Bismarck class could keep on target and fire whilst maneuvering, the Yamato couldn't, again only the Iowa matches this.

 

Finally the Bismarck class always had an excellent radar package, and the 1944 refit of the Tirpitz gave her just as impressive a radar package as that on the Iowa class.

 

German, British & US radar capability by year:

 

1940-41...........German...............British..........USN
Range accuracy:..40 meters...........240 yards(1).........N/A
Bearing Accuracy..0.10*................0.75*..............N/A

1942-43..........German................British..........USN
Range Accuracy:..40 meters............120 yards(2)......0.1% of range + 40 yards
Bearing axxuracy..0.10*.................5-6 arc M (0.10*)...........3-4 mils (0.12-0.20*)

1944-45.........German ................British....................USN
Range accuracy:.10 or 25 meters.............120 or 40 yards..........0.1% of range + 15 yards.
Bearing Accuracy: 0.10*.................0.08*-0.10*................2-3 mils

 

 

[Frosty]

 

 

Yamato: The optical FCS were on par, in Radar the Germans were ahead. Still Yamato would probably win such a Matchup.

Iowa: Would win.

Littorios: On par pretty much.

North Carolina: On par to worse.

The rest of the ships you mentioned are not on par and range from slightly worse to worse with chances.

 

But such comparisons are always flawed and stupid... not to mention that several of these ships would never meet in the way we know them.

Iowa and Yamato may well get pounded by Bismarck in the North-Atlantic, while at the same time a South-Dakota or New-Mexico could shred a Bismarck to pieces with the right circumstances.

 

"Rodney defeated Bismarck": Nope, Ark-Royal did. As Bismarck met Rodney and KGV she was already unable to fight back.

 

I aggree with you on this one. I just mentioned inaccurate Rodney and jammin KGV turrets to make a point that "greates battleship ever" as some do state should do a little better against such opponents. Bismarck was good (partially because of it's size) but still comparable to other bb's build within same time period. In some aspects it was rly good, in others it lagged behind other designs. At you mentioned - all depends on circumstances 

[Coenraad]

Allot of direct comparissons in what looks like is becomming a pissing contest.

Many seem to forget that a whole lot is determined by both tactics and a big deal of luck. Not to mention weather conditions, crew morale, fatique, trainig, and in battle decisions by comanders etc.

 

The Bismarck is an overglorified ship in allot of aspects. Her run was the first Kamikaze run one could say. The captaon said goodbye to he bwst friend before leaving, knowing he would never come back. Yes she was a good ship and yes the hit on the Hood was plain luck. The way the RN handled the munitions did not make things much better.

 

For all that mattered the luck might have swung the other way and the Hood or PoW could have hit the firecontroll on the Bismarck instead then the journey would very possibly allready have ended there.

Had the bismarck not been so lucky and both PoW and Hood would be active, both sides would have come out of the fight rather battered.

 

The last fight of the bismarck she did very little. Luck was against her this time and her firecontroll was hit early on. Her crews where exhausted and morale was at the lowest, she was very slow in rough seas without steering and unstable becourse of that.

 

What the outcome would have been vs other ships, we will never know as it is determined by so many factors then just simple stats. An upgraded Bismarck or Tirpitz in 1945 with equal trained crews would still be a big threat just like any BB.

 

Like so many armchair generals say the Iowa was so much better then the Yamato or Mushashi. The best answer is that what the Iowas commander said when he was asked if he wanted to battle her or if the carriers should take her. He said "you can have her".

 

He knew that in a direct confrontation allot of lives would go to waste, simply becourse even the one who would win, would walk away bruised and beaten up quite well.

 

Ps, it is rare for a battleship to sink another battleship. Becourse biggunfire is unlikely to create enough flooding. Most BB's where sunk with torpedoes or scuttling charges.

 

 

[Jack_Varus]

I think Bismarck is a little overhyped. She was a good ship to be sure, but she wasn't the best. She was largely based off of a WW1 design, which you can see in the machinery layout and triple shaft system (which is a horrendous idea on most ships, let alone a warship). They did improve in some areas so their engines were less likely to fail horribly and leave her dead in the water and the hull was put together really well to resist damage. But the guns weren't a lot better than the smaller British guns, they had monstrous trouble with the munitions for them and the stern was completely unarmoured (like a lot of German ships of the time), so any hits near the stern would cause the deck to come crashing down on the steerage machinery.

Her superstructure armour also wasn't as good as it should have been on paper and was riddled like a swiss cheese at close range which caused tremendous casualties.

 

It's worth noting that in her final battle she was effectively knocked out within fifteen minutes and the RN quickly closed the range to the point where their gunfire would either skip off of the water or hit the superstructure rather than stand any chance of hitting the core areas of the ship.

 

Ultimitely, she and her sister were the ultimate raiders, roles which they would have performed exceptionally well at given the chance and Tirpitz went on to cause a considerable headache with her presence alone. Another, slightly more worrying aspect is that they were considerable propoganda vessels designed to show off Nazi Germany's strength and power and probably no small amount of effort went into making sure they looked the part. It also seems a lot of people have fallen for this as well, claiming them to be the greatest warships of all time.

 

Personally, I'm looking forwards to the Deutschland heavy cruisers. They had some really very clever innovations to keep weight down while packing a hefty punch.

[Thoddyx]

the stern was completely unarmoured

 

unarmored was the part from frame 10,5 m to the end of the ship, but ther was absolutly no content of importance(wardrobe and living spaces) in the Abteilung I from frame zero to frame 10,5m

 they had monstrous trouble with the munitions

details?

 

[Plushun]

Anybody get the Bismarck (or the Tirpitz) after the leatest patch? Just becouse the devs wrote in the patch note that some people will get it.

[Gotenadler91]

I checked many Supertester Profiles..not any German Ship on the record. 

[KMS_Tirpitz]

I do hope that the Bismarck class's remarkable rate of fire is faithfully represented when she arrives, she was capable of 3 rounds a minute, one of the benefits of the large and spacey 2 gun turret. Obviously such a RoF wasn't performed unless the target's course was predictable, hence why the RoF at the Denmark straight was so low for both parties as they were constantly shifting their aim.

[Thonar]

I do hope that the Bismarck class's remarkable rate of fire is faithfully represented when she arrives, she was capable of 3 rounds a minute, one of the benefits of the large and spacey 2 gun turret. Obviously such a RoF wasn't performed unless the target's course was predictable, hence why the RoF at the Denmark straight was so low for both parties as they were constantly shifting their aim.

 

 

God Hell... NO!

1. 3 rpm was only achievable at close ranges (up to 5km when I'm not mistaken)

2. At longest ranges the rpm dropped massively to 1.8rpm

3. The theoretical RoF was 3.3rpm when the gun doesn't needed to elevate out of the loading Position... but at these speeds the ammunition elevators made problems, thus the maximum RoF is given with 3rpm.

4. At Denmark-Strait Bismarck shot over 2rpm at times.

 

Ingame Bismarck and Tirpitz will have 26s reload time (without any modules).

 

[KMS_Tirpitz]

 

 

God Hell... NO!

1. 3 rpm was only achievable at close ranges (up to 5km when I'm not mistaken)

2. At longest ranges the rpm dropped massively to 1.8rpm

3. The theoretical RoF was 3.3rpm when the gun doesn't needed to elevate out of the loading Position... but at these speeds the ammunition elevators made problems, thus the maximum RoF is given with 3rpm.

4. At Denmark-Strait Bismarck shot over 2rpm at times.

 

Ingame Bismarck and Tirpitz will have 26s reload time (without any modules).

 

 

She was capable of ~3.3 rpm maximum, but as you said the hoists experienced some problems in that particular test, but 3 rpm could be achieved reliably. This is a lot more than what the other BBs were capable of at best, which was 2 rpm. Thus if the Bismarck only gets a RoF of ~2.3 rpm, then the others need one of ~1.5  rpm. Otherwise how is the advantage of the spacey 2 gun turret design faithfully represented ingame?

 

If the other ships keep their real life max 1.8-2.0 rpm then the Bismarck class needs its real life max 3 rpm as well, esp. since a higher RoF was one of the key reasons behind the choice of the turret design = less guns but a higher RoF. This is what will balance out the DPM, otherwise it will fall short for a Tier 8 ship.

 

Sure in reality 3 rpm couldn't be maintained for long range fire, but the other ships couldn't maintain their 2 rpm max at other than close ranges either, yet they have it at all ranges ingame, thus the Bismarck needs the same advantage, otherwise the historical disparity is lost.

 

 

 

 

 

[Thonar]

Ohh bloddy hell, we already had this discussion.

Again:
Ingame RoF =
(([Maximum technical RoF on lowest Elevation] + [Maximum technical RoF on highest Elevation]) / 2) +/- Balance

 

An no... there were other ships capable of similiar effective RoF (especially some Japanese designs).

Bismarck is not treated differently and with 26s unmodded RoF she already got the best RoF of a BB ingame...

[KMS_Tirpitz]

Ohh bloddy hell, we already had this discussion.

Again:

Ingame RoF =

(([Maximum technical RoF on lowest Elevation] + [Maximum technical RoF on highest Elevation]) / 2) +/- Balance

 

An no... there were other ships capable of similiar effective RoF (especially some Japanese designs).

Bismarck is not treated differently and with 26s unmodded RoF she already got the best RoF of a BB ingame...

 

1. Where have "we" had this discussion? I've certainly never seen that "equation" before.

2. False, there was no Japanese gun of similar caliber capable of 3.3 rpm

 

Finally all I am saying is that the Bismarck needs its historical advantage, and that exactly for the reason of preserving balance as it was one of the main reasons behind the turret design choice. 

 

 

[Hawker_gb]

Only ignorant can say that Bismarck is upgraded bayern class.

 

EDIT: BS weak part was stern section which collapse after torpedo strike from swordfish.

[Thonar]

 

1. Where have "we" had this discussion? I've certainly never seen that "equation" before.

2. False, there was no Japanese gun of similar caliber capable of 3.3 rpm

 

Finally all I am saying is that the Bismarck needs its historical advantage, and that exactly for the reason of preserving balance as it was one of the main reasons behind the turret design choice.

 

 

 

 

1. "We" as an entirety of the English speaking Forum

2. I said "effective RoF" not "Maximum RoF".

 

The point is the "historical advantage" is already implemented with the 26s reload-time it already has.

 

€: Just looked it up: Nagato 410mm gun, firing cycle: 21.5s at loading elevation. That is roughly 2.9 RpM.

For Bismarck it is the same: 3 rpm is only achievable when the gun is not elevated out of its loading position.

[KMS_Tirpitz]

 

 

1. "We" as an entirety of the English speaking Forum

2. I said "effective RoF" not "Maximum RoF".

 

The point is the "historical advantage" is already implemented with the 26s reload-time it already has.

 

€: Just looked it up: Nagato 410mm gun, firing cycle: 21.5s at loading elevation. That is roughly 2.9 RpM.

For Bismarck it is the same: 3 rpm is only achievable when the gun is not elevated out of its loading position.

 

1. Keep in mind that no everyone reads every thread

2. The effective RoF was also noticably higher thanks to the noticably faster reloading cycle, which was the point.

 

If the Bismarck only has a 0.3 rpm advantage ingame then it doesn't have its historical advantage when its reloading cycle was some 1 rpm (20 sec) faster than the others, or in other words 50% faster when its from 2 to 3 rpm. So even if you count in the time to elevate the gun when firing at long range the difference would still be 20 sec, which sure enough would decrease the difference in percentage because the total time is increased, but not by a factor of 0.7.  

 

In short I'd say that a 2.5 to 2.6 rpm would be more fitting for the Bismarck class ingame considering that the other ships get to keep their historical low elevation max rpm. 

 

§That must be a spelling mistake on Navweaps, the max rpm was 2.5 at low elevations for the 410mm 3rd year type naval gun, which was litterally the only gun to come close, and no doubt also thanks to a spacey 2 gun turret.

 

 

[OnboardG1]

Looks like they sacrifice a lot of important mobility stats for the excellent guns. Might end up as carrier bait. I do love a high velocity gun though so we'll see.

[kalamona]

I think Bismarck is a little overhyped. She was a good ship to be sure, but she wasn't the best. She was largely based off of a WW1 design, which you can see in the machinery layout and triple shaft system (which is a horrendous idea on most ships, let alone a warship). They did improve in some areas so their engines were less likely to fail horribly and leave her dead in the water and the hull was put together really well to resist damage. But the guns weren't a lot better than the smaller British guns, they had monstrous trouble with the munitions for them and the stern was completely unarmoured (like a lot of German ships of the time), so any hits near the stern would cause the deck to come crashing down on the steerage machinery.

Her superstructure armour also wasn't as good as it should have been on paper and was riddled like a swiss cheese at close range which caused tremendous casualties.

 

It's worth noting that in her final battle she was effectively knocked out within fifteen minutes and the RN quickly closed the range to the point where their gunfire would either skip off of the water or hit the superstructure rather than stand any chance of hitting the core areas of the ship.

 

Ultimitely, she and her sister were the ultimate raiders, roles which they would have performed exceptionally well at given the chance and Tirpitz went on to cause a considerable headache with her presence alone. Another, slightly more worrying aspect is that they were considerable propoganda vessels designed to show off Nazi Germany's strength and power and probably no small amount of effort went into making sure they looked the part. It also seems a lot of people have fallen for this as well, claiming them to be the greatest warships of all time.

 

Personally, I'm looking forwards to the Deutschland heavy cruisers. They had some really very clever innovations to keep weight down while packing a hefty punch.

 

Of course, its hyped, and sometimes, its overhyped - but blowing up Hood Jütland-style was quite an unique action in the war.

 

As for the Deutschlands... watch, what you are wishing for Im afraid, that those ships will be either underpowered (overtiered) or OP as hell. Those ships were freaks.

[Lance_Horne]

 

You mean the same Rodney that was unable to penetrate vital areas of the ship?

You mean the same Rodney that was unable to penetrate the "citadel"?

€: You mean the same Rodney, that was unable to penetrate vital parts of the Bismarck with its massive Torpedos?

 

Yes the same  HMS Rodney that quickly wrecked the mighty Bismark,  destroying her guns and upper deck, quickly turning her into a floating inferno........................with the help of HMS King George V of cause!

All those beautiful and powerful capital ships of the kriegsmarine, all put on the bottom courtesy of the Royal Navy and Royal Airforce, I can understand why it grieves you so much.

 

I will tell you what grieves me Thonar, all the thousands of brave men of those great navies, the Kriegsmarine and Royal Navy, who lost their lives because of one meglomaniac!

[thantalas04]

Do not forget in your grieves, that the WWII was inevitable.  Marshall Foch Commander-in-Chief (Généralissime) of the Allied Armies said after the Versailles peace dictate : "This is not peace but an armistice for 20 years".

 

There was a yearly renewed military agreement between France and Russia since 1892, in a war France requested Russia's main attack on Germany... but in fact Russian interest was beating the Astro-Hung, annex parts of it then the balkan in the big russian made pan-slav idea.

Years before the war France gave loans to Russia for military expenses and Russia was willing to build railway up to the Austo-Hungarian and Germany's border, and Russia had to sent 3 million soldier to the front after 3 weeks of declaration of war. 

 

 

28th June Assassination of Crown Prince

24th July Russia Mobilization

28th July Austria-Hungary declare war on Serbia

29th July Austria-Hungary Mobilization

1st August 4 PM France Mobilization

1st August 5 PM Germany Mobilization

 

Also do not forget that the Austria-Hungary was the less prepared for a war. 

 

Let you tell me one thing, why did the allies(Ru) made conspiracy to kill the Crown Prince, who was the most anti-war party leader in Austria ? (The ruler Franz Joseph was old, he died in 1917.)

 

Because if they did not kill him, then never come WWI !!!!!!

 

Wars are nothing else but some greedy businesses of the most rich to become even more rich, cost on the poor.

 

 

 

Respect to the people who were fighting for their family, home, country, peace, for our presence.

 

 

Go back this game.

 

 

Bismarck, the legendary battleship! Can't wait to see her in action.

 

She got her name from the best German diplomat in the 19th century.

 

She was superior to the Hood.

 

Also have to agree that she was not the best battleship. Well her built purpose was a fast strong ocean Raider. Her hull armor was very strong, but the control rooms, turrets armor should be better.

I read somewhere that her radar system was weaker than the Hoods, so beside of her higher firing range the Hood started the fire.

[KMS_Tirpitz]

I read somewhere that her radar system was weaker than the Hoods, so beside of her higher firing range the Hood started the fire.

 

Not the case. The Bismarck & PE infact featured the best radar at the Denmark straight, however Bismarck knocked her own set out before the battle during rapid fire against the shadowing British destroyers Norfolk & Suffolk. 

 

During the actual battle both sides used their optical rangefinders for their firecontrol. The German ships didnt fire first because Lutjens didn't want to engage, he initially simply wanted to flee as he was afraid that the entire RN battlefleet was on the way. Only when it was clear that he couldnt escape without a fight and after numerous desperate requests from Bismarcks captain & officers begging to be allowed to open fire did he finally permit the opening of fire. Almost immediately the German ships were on target with numerous straddles and several hits, and within 5 min the Hood was fatally struck by Bismarck.

 

As PoW retreated behind a smokescreen the German ships started to rely on Prinz Eugen radar for firecontrol, striking and straddling the PoW from behind the smoke screen until Lutjens called a ceasefire and ordered his ships to veer away - again with many protests from Bismarcks captain Lindemann who wanted to keep up chasing and sink PoW.

 

In short the only ones with effective fire control radar in 41, as well as the only ones using it as such, were the Germans. The British exclusively used radar for surface search at this point in the war.