Battlecruiser's

[DreadArchangel]

I think the BC's will be  the answer to the bb problem, these were ships, heavier armed than cruiser's and bigger guns, with a decent speed.

 

The brits brought out this class to deal with german raiders in the first world war, and they were very succesfull, faster and better armed, downside tho less armour.

 

One of the reasons i'm looking forward  to seeing them, and yeah the scharnhorst should be spectacular 

[Grydneg]

Well, the Myogi and Kongo are BCs, for example. I'm pretty sure other BCs like the Scharnhorst and Hood will be added in time.

 

[Dr_Snuggles]

 

Scharnhorst was (at least in Germany) classified as Battleship, and here I want so see it as such.

Maybe with the planned gun changes to 38cm as upgrade... who knows.

It does not share the BC characteristics.

It was very good at the armor side, but Artillery was smaller.

 

And just if you did not know:

With Kongo and Amagi there are already BCs ingame

[OccamsChainsaw1]

Isn't the Zao a Battlecruiser? It gets the BB repair ability after all, and has some fairly potent weaponry.

[Kirasa]

Isn't the Zao a Battlecruiser? It gets the BB repair ability after all, and has some fairly potent weaponry.

 

Only 203mm guns.

[Khul]

As I was saying on the other thread, I really like the Myogi ATM after the 0.4 buffs it got. As long as you play it according to the design philosophy of a battlecruiser--i.e. bully the living wossname out of enemy cruisers!--it's quite a lot of fun.

 

I look forward to Kongo'ing, Scharnhorsting, Hooding & Alaska-ing too!

 

(& running in terror from enemy full battleships as they plod after me)

 

[Vanhal]

I think the BC's will be  the answer to the bb problem, these were ships, heavier armed than cruiser's and bigger guns, with a decent speed.

 

The brits brought out this class to deal with german raiders in the first world war, and they were very succesfull, faster and better armed, downside tho less armour.

 

One of the reasons i'm looking forward  to seeing them, and yeah the scharnhorst should be spectacular 

 

 

Well, they did stomped von Spee squadron, having total advantage, but other than that...

[FlutterRage]

Well, the Myogi and Kongo are BCs, for example. I'm pretty sure other BCs like the Scharnhorst and Hood will be added in time.

 

The Kongo with the Hull B upgrade is most definitely a battleship. A bit less armour than the USN counter part(still significantly thicker than BC), but it can do 30 knots. I will always prefer a slight reduce in armour but a lot faster.

[zothiz]

Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were battleships.

after all the german 28cm guns were more effective then the british 30.5 cm guns.

caliber isnt evrything.

Plz first inform properly and then comment stuff. Stop throwing around "half-knowledge", thx.

[DreadArchangel]

The scharnhorst was a battlecruiser it had nothing like the firepower or armour of other battleships of its time, its one of these ships, that you're not to certain where it should go like the grafspee, should it be in the cruiser line or bb line??

 

The thing is the brits could quite easily do a line of BC's.

 

Invincible class,Indefatigable class, Tiger class, Lion class The HMS Queen Mary, one of a kind .Renown class,The Admiral class (of course) and the paper G3 class, 

[DreadArchangel]

And no it was a battlecruiser, you get you're facts right.

 

Looks like we were both right.

 

Scharnhorst was a German capital ship, alternatively described as a battleship and battlecruiser.....

[Khul]

I look forward to this thread degenerating into a childish argument about terminology, complete with "WELL, one navy said X ship was a battlecruiser!!!!" & someone else going "WELL, ANOTHER navy called the same ship a battleship!!!" & with a huge sense of smug superiority being exhibited on both sides over nothing more than a pissing contest.

 

No, wait, hang on, it's here already!

YAY!

[woppy101]

I think the BC's will be  the answer to the bb problem, these were ships, heavier armed than cruiser's and bigger guns, with a decent speed.

 

The brits brought out this class to deal with german raiders in the first world war, and they were very succesfull, faster and better armed, downside tho less armour.

 

One of the reasons i'm looking forward  to seeing them, and yeah the scharnhorst should be spectacular 

 

from what I read about Jutland adm Beattys battlecruiser sqn was totally outclassed and out gunned by adm hippers sqn and was only saved by adm jelicoe and the grand fleet, the battle of Jutland was classed as a victory for us(because the German high seas fleet never came out of harbour after that) but really the Germans won the battle sinking more of our ships.

[woppy101]

Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were battleships.

after all the german 28cm guns were more effective then the british 30.5 cm guns.

caliber isnt evrything.

Plz first inform properly and then comment stuff. Stop throwing around "half-knowledge", thx.

 

in the book I have the scharnhorst is down as a battlecruiser along with the Kongo,dunkerque,tiger,hood and renown

[Unintentional_submarine]

 

The Kongo with the Hull B upgrade is most definitely a battleship. A bit less armour than the USN counter part(still significantly thicker than BC), but it can do 30 knots. I will always prefer a slight reduce in armour but a lot faster.

 

No it isn't. It's a battlecruiser since it never got it's main belt upgraded. The IJN changed the designation from battlecruiser to battleship after the first modification, where torpedobulges were added and speed dropped to 25 knots. That was pretty much all that changed in regards to battleship vs battlecruiser characteristics. So the same ship just got slower... and that means she is now a battleship? I don't buy that.

Let's look at it like this. HMS Hood is often called a battlecruiser, but it was significantly better armoured than the Kongo class. Admittedly I'm on the 'fast battleship' side of the fence when it comes to Hood, but it just goes to show that these designations don't work very well. They are what the parent navy applied to them. Similarly, the Alaska class which most of us would designate as a battlecruiser, the USN decided to call a 'Large Cruiser'. Why? Because they wanted to, just like the Japanese wanted to call the Kongo class battleships, and the Royal Navy wanted to call Hood a battlecruiser. There wasn't, and still isn't, a specific rule for what was a battlecruiser and what was a battleship.

 

Regarding the Scharnhorst class, the British later recanted on their battlecruiser designation and redesignated them as battleships after the war (and it is from the British we have this silly notion that they were battlecruisers). So both the British and Germans were in agreement that the Scharnhorst class were battleships, as were Jane's from 1940 and the USN. Their armour certainly also indicated it.

The reason the British called them battlecruisers in down to them designating any ship of line that was faster than 24 knots as a battlecruiser. Hood and Scharnhorst both fell into that, despite exhibiting more battleship characteristics than battlecruiser characteristics. The reason the Bismarcks were not called battlecruiser is because of the KGV class. It was also faster than the 24 knots of the battlecruiser rule, yet it clearly wasn't a battlecruiser, so the rule became defunct. But this was only rectified after the war in regards to the Scharnhorst class (I'm not aware of any other instance where the RN changed the designation after the war).

[Dr_Snuggles]

DreadArchangel, on 17 July 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

The scharnhorst was a battlecruiser it had nothing like the firepower or armour of other battleships of its time, its one of these ships, that you're not to certain where it should go like the grafspee, should it be in the cruiser line or bb line??

 

The thing is the brits could quite easily do a line of BC's.

 

Invincible class,Indefatigable class, Tiger class, Lion class The HMS Queen Mary, one of a kind .Renown class,The Admiral class (of course) and the paper G3 class, 

 

Deck Armour.. ok quite thin i can't debate about that.

But up to 350mm Belt armour is nothing?

That beats Iowa, Bismarck, Richelieu in terms of max Armour thickness... 

 

 

Unintentional_submarine, on 17 July 2015 - 04:48 PM, said:

Regarding the Scharnhorst class, the British later recanted on their battlecruiser designation and redesignated them as battleships after the war (and it is from the British we have this silly notion that they were battlecruisers). So both the British and Germans were in agreement that the Scharnhorst class were battleships, as were Jane's from 1940 and the USN. Their armour certainly also indicated it.

The reason the British called them battlecruisers in down to them designating any ship of line that was faster than 24 knots as a battlecruiser. Hood and Scharnhorst both fell into that, despite exhibiting more battleship characteristics than battlecruiser characteristics. The reason the Bismarcks were not called battlecruiser is because of the KGV class. It was also faster than the 24 knots of the battlecruiser rule, yet it clearly wasn't a battlecruiser, so the rule became defunct. But this was only rectified after the war in regards to the Scharnhorst class (I'm not aware of any other instance where the RN changed the designation after the war).

 

Exactly that.

Taking the older British rules of Ships classification Iowa would be a BC too... 

Nobody debates about that.

But Why?

Oh yes because its nonsense, as it is with Scharnhorst

 

€: Ups was planned as Edit.. hope two posts won't bother anybody.

 

[woppy101]

I think everyone classed it as a battlecruiser because of its 31.5Kn top speed and its 11" Guns 

[Unintentional_submarine]

I think everyone classed it as a battlecruiser because of its 31.5Kn top speed and its 11" Guns 

 

Everyone being just the British right? Let's ignore the Germans, the USN and Jane's.

[mr3awsome]

 

 

Well, they did stomped von Spee squadron, having total advantage, but other than that...

 

Other than people disabling the anti-flash measures, British battlecruisers performed very well.

 

after all the german 28cm guns were more effective then the british 30.5 cm guns.

Well thats more a case of the defective shells that plagued the RN up to 1917 or so for the WWI vintage guns, and the fact that the 12"/50 Mk XIV didn't enter service.

 

 

 

Anyway, if you want to test out your theory, drive Myougi, Kongou or Amagi against their US counterparts.

[chaplainDMK]

The scharnhorst was a battlecruiser it had nothing like the firepower or armour of other battleships of its time, its one of these ships, that you're not to certain where it should go like the grafspee, should it be in the cruiser line or bb line??

 

The thing is the brits could quite easily do a line of BC's.

 

Invincible class,Indefatigable class, Tiger class, Lion class The HMS Queen Mary, one of a kind .Renown class,The Admiral class (of course) and the paper G3 class, 

 

It has extremely thick armor, thicker than Bismarcks for example. The German battlecruiser concept sacrificed armament for speed, while the Royal Navy battlecruisers sacrificed armor for for speed. The main difference was that Germany had fewer ships, so it expected it's battlecruisers to be used in the main battle line, while the Royal Navy had a huge numerical advantage, so it's battlecruisers were only fleet scouts and cruiser killers. 

 

 

Though officially the Scharnhorst class was designated as a Battleship. 

 

[Thoddyx]

 I think everyone classed it as a battlecruiser because of its 31.5Kn top speed and its 11" Guns 

 

32 knots offical without overload

files of the naval command

atlantic warefare

"Weiterer Einsatz der Überwasserstreitkräfte1- SKL 1263-41 gKdos Chefsache 17.Juli 1941"

[Lance_Horne]

 

from what I read about Jutland adm Beattys battlecruiser sqn was totally outclassed and out gunned by adm hippers sqn and was only saved by adm jelicoe and the grand fleet, the battle of Jutland was classed as a victory for us(because the German high seas fleet never came out of harbour after that) but really the Germans won the battle sinking more of our ships.

 

No you are wrong, the Kriegsmarine's "High Seas Fleet" retreated back to port never to venture out again leaving the victors the Royal Navy still in command of the North sea.

[woppy101]

 

No you are wrong, the Kriegsmarine's "High Seas Fleet" retreated back to port never to venture out again leaving the victors the Royal Navy still in command of the North sea.

 

isn't that what I said in my post, it was clased as a strategic victory for us (Great Britain) but really Germany won the battle because they sank more of our ships 

[Aerroon]

Hey guys, let's compromise.

 

Let's call her a "Fast Battleship", okay?

 

And if you aren't willing to compromise then we shall call her a BattleBoat

[chaplainDMK]

Hey guys, let's compromise.

 

Let's call her a "Fast Battleship", okay?

 

And if you aren't willing to compromise then we shall call her a BattleBoat

 

It can't be a proper "fast battleship" because a "fast battleship" is supposed to be just as good as every other battleship but faster. It doesn't sacrifice armament or armor.

 

Theoretically the Scharnhorst class are battlecruisers, but officially they are classified as battleships. Same with for example the Dunqerque class, which is also oficially designated a battleship, even though it's in practically all aspects a battlecruiser.