Please improve secondaries

[DaWyrm]

Ok,i'm still a fairly new player, only having TIII-ships so far, but from what I can tell, secondary batteries have very short range, are insanely inaccurate and seem to do almost no damage.

 

Secondaries should have the same range as they do when they are primaries on smaller ships.

 

My Kawachi has a lot of 6" secondaries. These should be comparable to the 140mm main guns on my Tatsuta that can reach over 10km. I can understand it would be silly to have the secondaries have longer range than the primaries, (the crappy range of Kawachi's primary battery is another discussion though), but as it is now, I barely see my secondaries engage anything but the occational DD that manages to get within 4km.

 

As for accuracy... The main guns on the Kawachi are WAY more accurate than the secondaries. This is also silly since the secondaries are meant to engage smaller and faster ships than the primaries. A rarely see the guns hit anything but the ocean. It scores an occational hit now and then, averageing to about 1-2 hits per battle. 

 

As for damage, if in range, my secondary batteries should be able to out-gun a cruiser of the same tier. It should be DANGEROUS to get close to a battleship. As it is now, only the primary batteries are a real threat. I've noticed this both in a BB and when in a DD. If you dodge the primaries, you have nearly a half minute to do whatever you want before the BB can threaten you again.

[Vanhal]

I wholly support your point, though i can't really imagine WG buffing secondaries. Heck, they were weak at the beginning and they were nerfed several times since then.

[strangers123]

The inaccuracy and short range of the secondaries is only a problem at the lower tiers. Once you get to higher tiers you get equipment that allows you to improve the range of the secondaries by 20%, and increaase their accuracy by quite a bit. There is also a captain skill called "Advanced Firing Training" that gives you another +20% firing range on ANY WEAPON of 15.5cm caliber or smaller (Currently the only ship to match that caliber is the Mogami with stock guns). Naturally this includes your secondaries and your AA:

 

The secondary batteries are not supposed to be as deadly as you want them. They used to be like that and they used to decimate other battleships in no time.

Once you get to the midtiers (tier 7/8) Japanese secondaries can become pretty good if upgraded.

[DaWyrm]

I can agree that they should not decimate battleships. 6" and smaller guns would not penetrate a battleship's belt armor. Still, they should be able to badly damage cruisers and cripple destroyers if they get too close. 

But I guess it will be a slippery road to balance on since you don't want to have auto-firing guns that win the day all the time either.

[Del_Mare]

while your main guns are directed by staff, doing the calculations and rangefinding, your secondaries are firing independently. they cannot therefore fire long distances and are inaccurate even at short distances. should so not get changed

[strangers123]

I can agree that they should not decimate battleships. 6" and smaller guns would not penetrate a battleship's belt armor. Still, they should be able to badly damage cruisers and cripple destroyers if they get too close. 

But I guess it will be a slippery road to balance on since you don't want to have auto-firing guns that win the day all the time either.

 

Which is why they are balanced the way they work right now. Its a hail of shellfire and some of it hits. It does cause significant damage to cruisers and destroyers if they get within range, and its main role against battleships is to set them on fire, and thats where their damage against battleships comes from. Though 14cm and 15.2cm secondaries do good damage to battleships as well.

[Sharana]

The secondaries accuracy is somewhere on the "planned" level = useless or small amount of damage overall. They experimented even with controllable ones, but BBs with lots of guns just become extremely powerful against smaller ships like DDs and CAs, so it's scraped.

[Thlurp]

the range of secondaries improve massively on higher tiers.

 

i think the maximum (including skills/modules) is about 10km

 

the hitrate was somewhere between 10-15% which is totally fine imho

[Unintentional_submarine]

the range of secondaries improve massively on higher tiers.

 

i think the maximum (including skills/modules) is about 10km

 

the hitrate was somewhere between 10-15% which is totally fine imho

 

Izumo and Yamato have 7km base range for their secondaries. That can be increased to nearly 10.6km (skill, mod and flag). That's enormous.

[Malakin0]

while your main guns are directed by staff, doing the calculations and rangefinding, your secondaries are firing independently. they cannot therefore fire long distances and are inaccurate even at short distances. should so not get changed

 

False, secondarys on battleships and cruisers made use of simmilar fire control to the main guns.

[Vanhal]

The secondaries accuracy is somewhere on the "planned" level = useless or small amount of damage overall. They experimented even with controllable ones, but BBs with lots of guns just become extremely powerful against smaller ships like DDs and CAs, so it's scraped.

 

Good to know WG hates BB's with fiery passion, and all that crap raining from the skies is not accident in bacancing but purposefully making scapegoats of one of the classes.

[Deathmaw]

Kind of a major issue with IJN battleships. They were designed with their secondaries in mind. They had fewer large caliber guns but more secondaries than the US ships. I really think you should be able to take manual control of your secondaries and your AA. Would add some more skill to the game and remove some of the RNG which is just crap. If I wanted to fight with RNG all day I would gamble.

[Takeda92]

 

Good to know WG hates BB's with fiery passion, and all that crap raining from the skies is not accident in bacancing but purposefully making scapegoats of one of the classes.

 

That class they hate was massively overpowered at one point.. as someone already said and WG answered before, BBs had controllable secondaries but they were removed because they were overpowered!

You can't just expect AI guns to do the damage and kill enemy ships for you, that's bad balance. At least for some ships yo have to spend money on equipment and flags to have decent secondaries.. and it's not like a BB can't oneshot other ships with their mains already!

[Vanhal]

 

That class they hate was massively overpowered at one point.

 

Never. At least not since i'm playing this game. Unless you write about that one point around 0.3.1 when they were actually somewhat balanced. but, seeing you signature, i guess it's a waste of pixels by me.

 

 

 BBs had controllable secondaries but they were removed because they were overpowered!

 

Won't argue here (it was more than a year ago though, when there were things such as arty view for all and such, even before 0.2.0 version), but mind you, there is slight difference between "overpowered!" and totally useless as they are now. I don't want them to bring manual control back, don't want to get 18km range or 50% accuracy, but ffs they are *nothing* now. It's even worse when WG actually is advertising ships like the Warspite with "great secondaries" argument, then nerf said secondaries to the ground.

 

 and it's not like a BB can't oneshot other ships with their mains already!

 

Using old argument - they just need to learn to play. Never saw any ship oneshotted (and you still need 3 or more citadel hits to "oneshot" cruiser from full HP, you know what is probablility of that with current RNGesus incarnation? almost zero) who played smart, it's always the "full broadside" man-o-cruiser types that got citadeled.

[DaWyrm]

I think they could look a bit at old Navyfield. There battleships and cruisers had controllable secondaries. They made it work without totally messing up the balance. On the other hand, gunnery was harder in Navyfield.

 

Navyfield 2 does the same but has simpler gunnery and still manages to be somewhat balanced. It is still in beta however and will probably be sunk by this game since the graphics of NF2 is so inadequate.

 

The best way to balance any OP-ness of battleships is to limit their number in battles. Same with carriers.

[Magni56]

If you were driving a battleship in 0.3.1 and didn't feel overpowered, there is only one valid conclusion to draw: Dude, you suck at playing battleships.

 

Same if you've never seen a ship getting one-shotted by a BB.

[GrumpyWorm]

Moved

[Takeda92]

 

Never. At least not since i'm playing this game. Unless you write about that one point around 0.3.1 when they were actually somewhat balanced. but, seeing you signature, i guess it's a waste of pixels by me.

 

 

Won't argue here (it was more than a year ago though, when there were things such as arty view for all and such, even before 0.2.0 version), but mind you, there is slight difference between "overpowered!" and totally useless as they are now. I don't want them to bring manual control back, don't want to get 18km range or 50% accuracy, but ffs they are *nothing* now. It's even worse when WG actually is advertising ships like the Warspite with "great secondaries" argument, then nerf said secondaries to the ground.

 

 

Using old argument - they just need to learn to play. Never saw any ship oneshotted (and you still need 3 or more citadel hits to "oneshot" cruiser from full HP, you know what is probablility of that with current RNGesus incarnation? almost zero) who played smart, it's always the "full broadside" man-o-cruiser types that got citadeled.

 

I was referring to the controllable secondaries with my first sentence.. if they removed it from BBs and continuously nerfed the accuracy that is because it was found overpowered. same how carriers received multiple nerfs in 3.1, people look at the current stat but they don't know how did the current class balance got to its current forum.

And I was one-shotted in my cruisers in e one salvo, I one-shotted DDs in one HE salvo and same happened to me in my DDs. It's not common but it is as common as all the other one-shots that happen in the game. In the end if you took 4 or 5 torp to your broadside isn't that your fault too? So battleships should need to "learn to play" just like anyone else. I can't count how many times I watch a BB keep sailing forward and Tbs are coming directly at his broadside. I tell them to turn into the planes but don't care what they see outside their sniper view!

 

OP based an entire opinion about BB balance from his experience on t3 battleships, which everyone knows they are UP in that tier. It doesn't mean they are in higher tiers, it dosn't mean secondaries are useless on all BBs, it doesn't mean BBs are underpowered.

 

And yes my sig clearly shows how everything is being nerfed so those dumb BB players don't die because of their stupidity.. the high reaction times of high tier torps and IJN torp spread are clear examples of that.

[Vanhal]

If you were driving a battleship in 0.3.1 and didn't feel overpowered, there is only one valid conclusion to draw: Dude, you suck at playing battleships.

 

Same if you've never seen a ship getting one-shotted by a BB.

 

Oh, my, that arguments. And also reading comprehension...

 

 

I was referring to the controllable secondaries with my first sentence.. if they removed it from BBs and continuously nerfed the accuracy that is because it was found overpowered.

 

And i agreed, although i never seen it in the game. Neither did you btw. They clearly werent overpowered at any point later, but still got nerfed. Look at them now, no one even bother to consider them anymore. I'm so happy that i didn't rebuy my Warspite.

 

 how carriers received multiple nerfs in 3.1, people look at the current stat but they don't know how did the current class balance got to its current forum.

 

If you called the carriers "nerfed", then i wouldn't want to see them "buffed". Or i did actually, 3 DB bombers from Essex erasing Yamato (or even Des Moines) with a single click. No defense whatsoever. It was then when Essex was called "Deathstar" and carriers as a whole earned the nickname "clickers". Because it's what they did: click and ships disappear. Next click 3 minutes later and another ship disappeared. Some people would definitely want that back.

 

And I was one-shotted in my cruisers in e one salvo, I one-shotted DDs in one HE salvo and same happened to me in my DDs. It's not common but it is as common as all the other one-shots that happen in the game.

 

Yet why it's always the same argument "BB are OP/fine because they can one shot people". Literally no other things. That would actually means BB are underpowered, since all other class can do it too and more.

 

 In the end if you took 4 or 5 torp to your broadside isn't that your fault too?

 

Sometimes, but not nearly as much as torpers would like to attribute to their genius. At least not by me, i can't speak for anyone else. Stock BB's are horrible, invisible Minekazes, but those are minor problems. Major are the torp bombers. Actually in previous patches they weren't bad, that usual advice to watch the torp bombers was sound (once i avoided like 120 torps in one battle in Fuso, and it was before BB agility buff), but now they are not making very visible attack run, turn on a dime and their display is very confusing. I could even stomach that manual drop, but all this is just too much.

Plus, the BB agility was nerfed too much, as well as AA. But i would drop the issue for now as WG are "looking into it" and wait what they do with it.

 

OP based an entire opinion about BB balance from his experience on t3 battleships, which everyone knows they are UP in that tier. It doesn't mean they are in higher tiers, it dosn't mean secondaries are useless on all BBs, it doesn't mean BBs are underpowered.

 

And if "everyone" knows they are UP that makes it ok? It exactly means the BB are UP, at least on that tiers.

 

 

And yes my sig clearly shows how everything is being nerfed so those dumb BB players don't die because of their stupidity.. the high reaction times of high tier torps and IJN torp spread are clear examples of that.

 

Could i request as a fellow player that you remove this sig? Please?

[Takeda92]

I will remove my sig when they fix the spotting ranges on IJN torps. If you think BBs are bad, try to do one third of Fuso's damage in Fubuki.

 

And no, Kawachi being UP has nothing with BBs being UP. Mutsuki is UP does that mean all IJN DDs are up? I'd even say Myougi is fine now with the new hull.

 

Essex could one click Yamato with 3 DBs? I thought DBs were crap before 0.3.1 and after that I still could survive 3-4 waves in Fuso and still do samage that is twice my average damage in Fubuki.

 

Wasn't BB agility returned to their 0.3.0 values? So they weren't nerfed, just debuffed. It was stupid that North Carolina could completely evade all 9 torps from Fubuki.

 

Wasn't AA nerf just for Iowa and North Carolina? Cruisers got DP guns buff. I once killed 2 Shoukaku planes in Fubuki as soon as I activated my AA.. I'd say AA is fine at high tiers. Also BBs get fighter plane now. So panic ability.

 

And you are right.. only IJN carriers got nerfed, USN ones got buffed to pre nerf IJN levels on high tiers. I suspect NA whine had sonething to do with it.

 

I'd say BBs are not as fun to play as other classes, but underpowered? I don't think so. BBs are still the most played class by far.

 

[Sharana]

Takeda92, on 17 July 2015 - 09:18 PM, said:

Essex could one click Yamato with 3 DBs? I thought DBs were crap before 0.3.1

That was long ago, first introduction of CVs when there was no manual drop, there were more squadrons (like 1 scout/3Fs/2TBs/2DBs on Essex) with less reserves and fuel for the planes. The DBs were piloted by elite pilots scoring ~80% hit ratio and they had ... AP bombs 

So you can imagine the CVs underperformed with 50% of your strike package oneshotting Yamato. They had to rework them completely and of course overnerfed the DBs especially, so they were useless till 0.3.1. And we will wait for AP bombs again, end of 2015 for now. The players who consider CVs extremely OP now just have no idea what "the death star" was 

[Takeda92]

That was long ago, first introduction of CVs when there was no manual drop, there were more squadrons (like 1 scout/3Fs/2TBs/2DBs on Essex) with less reserves and fuel for the planes. The DBs were piloted by elite pilots scoring ~80% hit ratio and they had ... AP bombs 

So you can imagine the CVs underperformed with 50% of your strike package oneshotting Yamato. They had to rework them completely and of course overnerfed the DBs especially, so they were useless till 0.3.1. And we will wait for AP bombs again, end of 2015 for now. The players who consider CVs extremely OP now just have no idea what "the death star" was 

 

Funny, everything that WG make and it is overpowered they nerf it to the ground to uselessness... does the term "middle ground" mean anyting to WG?

[Vanhal]

I will remove my sig when they fix the spotting ranges on IJN torps. If you think BBs are bad, try to do one third of Fuso's damage in Fubuki.

Pity, it's hard to talk seriously to someone who have derogating generalisation written on  forehead.

Essex could one click Yamato with 3 DBs? I thought DBs were crap before 0.3.1 and after that I still could survive 3-4 waves in Fuso and still do samage that is twice my average damage in Fubuki.

You seemed to be so knowledgeable about the alpha so i think you would know a little more than what was strangely convenient for you. BTW. DD's also were incredibly OP at some point in alpha, imagine US 5 tier having 13 km torp range and that was the least among tier 5+. They were just carpet torping choke points and cruisers died like flies, not even counting BB's.

Wasn't BB agility returned to their 0.3.0 values? So they weren't nerfed, just debuffed. It was stupid that North Carolina could completely evade all 9 torps from Fubuki.

IDK about specific values, but along with "debuff" came nerf to acceleration and deceleration, which of course make every maneuver harder and more risky. And how the hell NC dodging Fubuki torps is more stupid than Fubuki dodging NC shots? Remember Guadalcanal and South Dakota?

Wasn't AA nerf just for Iowa and North Carolina? Cruisers got DP guns buff. I once killed 2 Shoukaku planes in Fubuki as soon as I activated my AA.. I'd say AA is fine at high tiers. Also BBs get fighter plane now. So panic ability.

IJN BB's AA was nerfed too if i remember correctly. AA are joke anyway, planes are in the lowest (only one really working) range in barely few seconds, so attacked ships are doing little to no damage. But as i always say, all would change if they consider air superiority and not only TB zerg rushes as CV tactics.

 

And you are right.. only IJN carriers got nerfed, USN ones got buffed to pre nerf IJN levels on high tiers. I suspect NA whine had sonething to do with it.

 

I'd say BBs are not as fun to play as other classes, but underpowered? I don't think so. BBs are still the most played class by far.

Reducing turret traverse time would go greatly towards BB being more fun, as most painful thing now is certainly that. And it's exactly this, not even lack of awareness that makes some players not dodging. Every move and you are losing salvo. Bombers in the vicinity, you need to turn away/towards them and you losing 2-3 salvoes. It wasn't so bad with increased agility, but now it's painful as hell.

And idk. what tier are you on, but battleship are not most played class on 5 tier anymore. Guess low tiers was there to grind for CV's ore they just left/gone cruiser because BB are not fun and UP. Now there are 50% more cruisers than BB's. Including "in range" 4 tiers.

 

[Shagulon]

I think they could be better, agreed.

 

Something akin to AA weapons.

[Unintentional_submarine]

Wasn't BB agility returned to their 0.3.0 values? So they weren't nerfed, just debuffed. It was stupid that North Carolina could completely evade all 9 torps from Fubuki.

 

 

Actually no, the 'nerf' didn't return the values to pre 0.3.1, it is actually still better than 0.3.0. So the net result is better maneuverability to BBs. In return they lost some acceleration at the top.

 

 Wasn't AA nerf just for Iowa and North Carolina? Cruisers got DP guns buff. I once killed 2 Shoukaku planes in Fubuki as soon as I activated my AA.. I'd say AA is fine at high tiers. Also BBs get fighter plane now. So panic ability.

 

Fuso and Kongos also lost some AA, but that was further back. Admittedly they were pretty serious AA ships for their tiers at the time. But that nerf might have overdone it. In a CV I haven't really feared the Fuso AA since.