Torpedo Spam - add realistic options

[Gazbeard]

So, there's lots of complaints about torpedo spam - not surprising considering they're an unlimited ammo in the same way as shells.

 

Here's a few observations and recommendations to "cool" them down a little and make their use more tactical and less spammy ....

 

1. Historical torpedoes had "depth settings" - these allowed them to (for example) pass under shallow draught ships like destroyers and hit the deeper draught capital ships the destroyers were shielding - worked against freighters too.  The mechanic does not have to be complex, a simple shallow, deep, or medium setting

- deep passes under destroyers and cruisers but not BBs and CVs,

- medium pass under destroyers only

- shallow will not pass under any ship

For ship-fired torpedoes, resetting the depth either adds 5 seconds to reload (if reset when reloading) or delays firing for 5 seconds if already loaded.

For air-dropped torpedoes, resetting must be done on the CV before take off.

 

2.  Torpedoes are not an unlimited resource - there should be a capacity limit for each ship (it would be easy enough to research records and find out how many each class carried).  Implement it.

 

3.  To balance the above "rebalances", the capacity should have another historical option - a mix of long-range but slow torpedoes, and shorter range but fast torpedoes - in actuality this was another setting on the torpedo itself, most notable on US torpedoes (e.g. 8 miles at 40 knots or 5 miles at 52 knots, etc.) ... this type of either/or makes people think a bit more regarding when and where to launch torpedoes.

 

Please think about it - comments welcome ... but trolls will be keelhauled ;)

[Ryu359]

So, there's lots of complaints about torpedo spam - not surprising considering they're an unlimited ammo in the same way as shells.

 

Here's a few observations and recommendations to "cool" them down a little and make their use more tactical and less spammy ....

 

1. Historical torpedoes had "depth settings" - these allowed them to (for example) pass under shallow draught ships like destroyers and hit the deeper draught capital ships the destroyers were shielding - worked against freighters too.  The mechanic does not have to be complex, a simple shallow, deep, or medium setting

- deep passes under destroyers and cruisers but not BBs and CVs,

- medium pass under destroyers only

- shallow will not pass under any ship

For ship-fired torpedoes, resetting the depth either adds 5 seconds to reload (if reset when reloading) or delays firing for 5 seconds if already loaded.

For air-dropped torpedoes, resetting must be done on the CV before take off.

 

2.  Torpedoes are not an unlimited resource - there should be a capacity limit for each ship (it would be easy enough to research records and find out how many each class carried).  Implement it.

 

3.  To balance the above "rebalances", the capacity should have another historical option - a mix of long-range but slow torpedoes, and shorter range but fast torpedoes - in actuality this was another setting on the torpedo itself, most notable on US torpedoes (e.g. 8 miles at 40 knots or 5 miles at 52 knots, etc.) ... this type of either/or makes people think a bit more regarding when and where to launch torpedoes.

 

Please think about it - comments welcome ... but trolls will be keelhauled ;)

2.) With how hard it is to put any torps at a target I fear that it would be the end of destroyers. (not carriers though as they usually carried enough torps and their fighters if used wisely don't run out that fast too). Normally you use up 24+ torps in a battle to make a few hits at long last. And that with upgraded torps that travel almost 52 knots from what I remember ingame.

 

3.) That would cause QUITE a ruckus as it would give torps a range way outside of dd visibiilty and ppl are screaming already a  lot about "I dont see dds but _I get torped" while the range is lower than the dds visibility (the dd just puts them in your way and hopes for the best currently)

 

1.) and who would then NOT use the shallow method? Normally I as a dd or cruiser see the enemy dd as more dangerous than the BB as it can sink me with just 1-2 hits while the BB needs a few salvoes if it is able to hit at all (most BB........ok lets not start about the players aiming capabilities). Aka I really dont see anything bringing value to the game with such a setting just more complexity for casual gamers and even for non casual ones not really much of a gain there just more complexity that is ignored by using shallow anyway.

 

[Conte_Vincero]

Torps are only spammy at lower tiers, as you go up they get much longer reloads and are used differently. Imho the only change they need is a slight buff on the higher tier ones, but I haven't got past T4 to see what they are like in the OBT.

[Shadeshots]

So, there's lots of complaints about torpedo spam - not surprising considering they're an unlimited ammo in the same way as shells.

 

Here's a few observations and recommendations to "cool" them down a little and make their use more tactical and less spammy ....

 

1. Historical torpedoes had "depth settings" - these allowed them to (for example) pass under shallow draught ships like destroyers and hit the deeper draught capital ships the destroyers were shielding - worked against freighters too.  The mechanic does not have to be complex, a simple shallow, deep, or medium setting

- deep passes under destroyers and cruisers but not BBs and CVs,

- medium pass under destroyers only

- shallow will not pass under any ship

For ship-fired torpedoes, resetting the depth either adds 5 seconds to reload (if reset when reloading) or delays firing for 5 seconds if already loaded.

For air-dropped torpedoes, resetting must be done on the CV before take off.

 

2.  Torpedoes are not an unlimited resource - there should be a capacity limit for each ship (it would be easy enough to research records and find out how many each class carried).  Implement it.

 

3.  To balance the above "rebalances", the capacity should have another historical option - a mix of long-range but slow torpedoes, and shorter range but fast torpedoes - in actuality this was another setting on the torpedo itself, most notable on US torpedoes (e.g. 8 miles at 40 knots or 5 miles at 52 knots, etc.) ... this type of either/or makes people think a bit more regarding when and where to launch torpedoes.

 

Please think about it - comments welcome ... but trolls will be keelhauled ;)

 

Same as i said in another thread on torpedoes, if your being sunk by torpedoes then you as a player are a fail, for failure to adapt to the situation at hand, for example, if your allowing an enemy DD to get within torp range in the first place then that is a team fail, with falls into the same catagory as player fail, in which case you deserve to be sunk for it. Torpedo bombing are the same, Stick near allies, ask for AA cover, get into a position that will reduce the impact of said bombings, etc, theres plenty of ways and methods to deal with torpedos, just becaue you havent learnt to doesnt mean they need nerfing.

 

Also this isnt real life, if this was the chances are you would of been sunk by other means i would also guess you would then also come to the forums and complain about that? You want to make it realistic? I got a realistic fact for you. LIFE isnt FAIR and WAR definitely is not. There is ways to deal with them, with that said i suggest you get more experience. Instead of complain just because you died to some.

 

Torps dont need nerfs, DDs and CV have already been nerfed because of all the people like you that want to complain about them. They dont need anymore

Thank you.

[MudMonkey]

Aaaaand another thread about Torps. How about searching for this kind of topic first?

[Shadeshots]

Torps are only spammy at lower tiers, as you go up they get much longer reloads and are used differently. Imho the only change they need is a slight buff on the higher tier ones, but I haven't got past T4 to see what they are like in the OBT.

 

As the tiers go up generally everything goes up. including torpedo reload, the range etc. But also on concealment and spotting range goes up. IJP DD's generally have the longest torpedo range and the smallest spotting range, but the crappest main batteries. So they are the most stealthy, whereas the USN DD's generally have the better guns the faster turret traverse speed, yet they have the smallest torpedo range and are spotted further away. DD's are what i generally main on this game, Since reset of stats etc from CBT to OBT. I am tier 5 IJN DD's (Minekaze) and tier 6 USN DD's (Farragut) again (lol) and for example on both factions DD's at tier 5:

 

IJN:

Tier 5 Minekaze:

Has just short of 6km Detection range on surface and a 3.1km from aircraft, so if its any where below those figures you will spot them but they have a 10km Torpedo range. 

Turret Traverse takes 45 seconds for there main battery to do a 180 degree turn. Has 120mm guns.

39.4 knots speed, with a 2.8 second rudder shift.

 

USN:

Tier 5 Nicholas:

Has just short of a 7km Detection range on Surface with a 3.1km from aircraft with a Torpedo range of 5.5km. 

Turret Traverse takes 12 seconds on main battery to do a 180 degree turn. Has 127mm Guns.

37.5 knots speed, with 3.5 second rudder shift.

 

The general concesus for the DD's from both faction is as simple as this:

IJN are Torpedo/Stealth ships, USN are brawlers with better guns. USN DD's generally will beat any IJN DD's in gun brawl.

 

USN DD's torp range will never be higher than IJN torp range on DD's. But USN DD's will always have better and faster guns than IJN DD's. Though at tier X they level out quite alot with the major difference being again torpedo range, most enjoyable tier right now is around tier 5, until more people getting into the higher tier brackets.

 

 

 

[Ryu359]

Aaaaand another thread about Torps. How about searching for this kind of topic first?

 

Seemingly too much of an effort there to put in. I think the 5th one this week alone? Although I have to admit I made one myself but mostly as a qusetion as a Tier 3 destroyer sucked up 3 torps by another tier 3 and would have survived if he had repaired the flooding (but that is off topic here anyway)

[Jigabachi]

Aaaaand another thread about Torps. How about searching for this kind of topic first?

This is a beta *cough* alpha *cough* test.

This forum is meant to be for providing feedback (yet ignored by WG devs, community guys and mods, I guess....).

He is providing feedback and ideas. And it's even constructive.

 

@ topic: I agree that torpedos are a major problem right now. At least up to tIV, but I don't think that it will change THAT much in the higher tiers...

1. Too complex, I fear, but I kinda like the idea.

2. No. Cannons can run out of ammunition, too. So just limiting torpedos would be kinda unfair. And torpedos are also very useful for area denial tactics, where you don't even have to hit anyone.

Would be quite a gamechanger. So... again: Nope.

3. Would completely screw the balance of the different country fleets. Nope again.

 

 

[puxflacet]

+ torpedos shouldnt detonate when hitting in very sharp angle (--> bounce) unless it has magnetic detonator (possible consumables? and magnetic was less reliable than contact detonator - swordfishes and bismarck hunt...)

+ include dud possibility

[TerTerro]

+ torpedos shouldnt detonate when hitting in very sharp angle (--> bounce) unless it has magnetic detonator (possible consumables? and magnetic was less reliable than contact detonator - swordfishes and bismarck hunt...)

+ include dud possibility

 

I don't know if you serious of just sarcasm speaking? 

[twibs]

@ topic: I agree that torpedos are a major problem right now. At least up to tIV, but I don't think that it will change THAT much in the higher tiers....

 

Oh, you'll see.

 

This seems well enough constructed post that I might even bother to answer it. ;)

 

1. There would be no reason not to use the shallow settings. A hit is a hit, I'll take it if I can.

2. The reloadtime on higher tiers kinda fixes that.

 

3. An interesting feature. This might be part of the buffs that a higher tier DDs need, though with the reload time of up to 90 SECONDS and up, it might be difficult to change, but I would welcome this.

 

 

[Gaulwa]

Oh, this thread again.

 

Sure, well... if you want to nerf torpedoes, please consider first that good players only have around 12% hit with torps.

 

2) If you reduce torpedoes stocks to reach some sort of historical similarities, then you better be ready for torps to have actual historical statistics:

10km range torpedoes? They are now 40km. 

62knt speed? They are now 92 knt.

Visible at 2,1km? Torps are now completely invisible.

 

Don't nerf what isn't broken. Only the reload speed is too fast at low tier 3-4.

DD at tier 6-10 are very much underpowered.

[Yamiji]

[puxflacet]

 

I don't know if you serious of just sarcasm speaking? 

 

serious

[TerTerro]

 

serious

 

That's a bad idea then, torpedos have 12% +- hit rate and you want them to be less effective even more?

Don't see then why anyone should play DD's.

 

[puxflacet]

MetalisTer, on 17 July 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

 

That's a bad idea then, torpedos have 12% +- hit rate and you want them to be less effective even more?

Don't see then why anyone should play DD's.

 

 

well dud is maybe not so important (anyway not saying that 1 of 3 torpedos should be dud - there should be some historical occurrence numbers). but difference between contact and magnetic detonator should be implemented. its ridiculous when torpedo which is moving almost parallel to you detonate after hit - this should be reserved for magnetic only and they were far less common in ww2
 

MetalisTer, on 17 July 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

 

That's a bad idea then, torpedos have 12% +- hit rate and you want them to be less effective even more?

Don't see then why anyone should play DD's.

 

 

dd players should learn ambush
 

[TerTerro]

 

dd players should learn ambush

 

Easy said, when a lot of plains flying around and spot you, were good idea. 

Yes ambush is a must for DD captains as else there would be 1-3% hit rate only. 

 

 

well dud is maybe not so important (anyway not saying that 1 of 3 torpedos should be dud - there should be some historical occurrence numbers). but difference between contact and magnetic detonator should be implemented. its ridiculous when torpedo which is moving almost parallel to you detonate after hit - this should be reserved for magnetic only and they were far less common in ww2

 

Also maybe add weapon jams for BB, dud shells too then? Engine failure, fuel consumpsion and so on? Remove consumables? You want realisms? It's a game, not simulation

 

Would you like 40km torpedos? Like long lance japan torpedos? Also in game Yamato turrets fire less that in reality, because it's a game and is needed. 

Your idea of dud torpedo would mean, that DD captains get a nerf, it's hard enough to hit a target and then, you hit and nothing happens, were fun for game.

Maybe learn to evade torpedos not nerf them? Yesterday had very good game with example, 2 BB's sailing into our side, i fire 2 salvos at first BB, he evades, ok next salvos, he evades, hm..., then i fire on second guy, hit, second try on second guy, hit sunk, nice, back to first. Again after some BB fired at him and ge got distracted i managed to hit him and sink with flooding. Captain played well changing course, speed constantly and was not hit easy by torps, 2dn one just straight line and was hit very easy So you can evade them  

[puxflacet]

 

Easy said, when a lot of plains flying around and spot you, were good idea. 

Yes ambush is a must for DD captains as else there would be 1-3% hit rate only. 

 

 

Also maybe add weapon jams for BB, dud shells too then? Engine failure, fuel consumpsion and so on? Remove consumables? You want realisms? It's a game, not simulation

 

Would you like 40km torpedos? Like long lance japan torpedos? Also in game Yamato turrets fire less that in reality, because it's a game and is needed. 

Your idea of dud torpedo would mean, that DD captains get a nerf, it's hard enough to hit a target and then, you hit and nothing happens, were fun for game.

Maybe learn to evade torpedos not nerf them? Yesterday had very good game with example, 2 BB's sailing into our side, i fire 2 salvos at first BB, he evades, ok next salvos, he evades, hm..., then i fire on second guy, hit, second try on second guy, hit sunk, nice, back to first. Again after some BB fired at him and ge got distracted i managed to hit him and sink with flooding. Captain played well changing course, speed constantly and was not hit easy by torps, 2dn one just straight line and was hit very easy So you can evade them  

 

im not the one saying torpedos should be nerfed. i have no problem with current torpedos. i just dont like the fact that the detonator triggers in every angle. this is really odd. i know this is not simulator but something should be realistic. but anyway if torpedos are heading towards you in such sharp angle it means that you have already taken evasive maneouvers or that torpedos was badly aimed so you shouldnt take this unnecessary damage (no more than 1 can hit you anyway unless they was launched from multiple vessels/planes). i think it would be nice feature to see the torpedos "bong" of your hull. but i can live without it...

 

and as i said: i can live without torp duds as well but it was fairly common.

 

[puxflacet]

xxx

[Gaulwa]

 

im not the one saying torpedos should be nerfed. i have no problem with current torpedos. i just dont like the fact that the detonator triggers in every angle. this is really odd. i know this is not simulator but something should be realistic. but anyway if torpedos are heading towards you in such sharp angle it means that you have already taken evasive maneouvers or that torpedos was badly aimed so you shouldnt take this unnecessary damage (no more than 1 can hit you anyway unless they was launched from multiple vessels/planes). i think it would be nice feature to see the torpedos "bong" of your hull. but i can live without it...

 

and as i said: i can live without torp duds as well but it was fairly common.

 

 

No matter. The problem here, is that DD are underpowered beyond tier 5. Your change, no matter the justification, will negatively affect DD. Therefore, your demand is rejected.

 

In a sense, the real problem is that WG made the DD overpowered in tier 3-4 avec every noob believe the balance stay the same the rest of the game.

[Spellfire40]

Realisitic Torps ? Like oxygen ones without a visible trail ?

 

Cya

 

Spellfire40 

[Yamiji]

Yes, exactly those ones. The "look ma, no scope"  kind

 

[TheJezna]

 

No matter. The problem here, is that DD are underpowered beyond tier 5. Your change, no matter the justification, will negatively affect DD. Therefore, your demand is rejected.

 

In a sense, the real problem is that WG made the DD overpowered in tier 3-4 avec every noob believe the balance stay the same the rest of the game.

 

Thing is, they're not even overpowered at low tiers, rather players are bad at dealing with them. Firing shells and getting hit by them with direct fire between visible surface ships is a game mechanism ever player is somewhat familiar with. This is especially true when alot of these new players come from world of tanks. Slow moving torpedoes that can be fired from outside the targets visible range or area is something people are not used to and will have to learn to deal with. This is, IMO the real reason for all the qq threads since open started: note that no players with experience from CBT ever complain about how DD's and their torps are OP at any tier.

 

[_DarthGunny_]

i play destroyers alot especialy the IJN.  at the lowere teirs there fairly lethal not due to the amount of damage they do but mostly down to the opponents skill level..  from level 4 upwards its getting harder to hit with the torps( im not complaining just an observation).  any change in the ammount of torps or the damage they do will effect the number of destroyer captains in the game, at the moment there seems to be a slow decline in the numbers of destroyers im seeing in the game

[Shadeshots]

As been said already Torpedoes only seem 'op' at lower tiers because people dont know how to deal with them or play the game effectively,  there is nothing wrong with the current torpedoes, the only thing thats wrong is the players really...

 

Next thread.