Destroyers become very weak after T5

[viceadmiral123]

Just wanted to throw this out there. Destroyers at t5 and below (Japanese) have great concealment, mobility, and torpedo reload times.

 

Destroyers after t5 get a massive penalty on torpedo reload times and less concealment, which is not offset by the other minor buffs.

 

Aircraft carriers are much likely to be seen after t4-t5, with planes that reveal your position to the enemy even behind cover. Note that you have poor AA with destroyers, even with upgrades it is about 20-25.

 

Other classes get incrementally better as they gain in tiers, but destroyers lose their concealment and torpedo reload times.

 

I personally find it most enjoyable to play with t3-t5 Japanese destroyers, I often get Confederate bonus which I can spend on other ships, even when playing crazy kamikaze games. After t5 this is not so, and you mostly fill the role of light cruiser.

[Timothyvaas]

You should try turning off AA and secondary batteries (press P to toggle AA/secondary) if the problem is that you get spotted because your AA guns are firing at the planes then try turning it off and see if there's a difference

[Mister_Greek]

High tier Japanese Dd;s get a big increase in Torpedo dmg and Torpedo range.

 

Shimakaze deals 20k maximum dmg per torp,plus the 15+ km range,its not that bad as you think.

 

I suggest to reach the top tiers first so as to get more experience in them.Every line has its good and bad ships,you are getting the feeling of dissapointment because Minekaze is probably the best IJN DD overall.

 

Other classes get better? You havent played the T9 IJN BB Izumo....Utter crap of a ship,nothing compared to Amagi...

 

With more games,comes experience,

with more experience comes correct evaluations

 

Cheers

[Scilya]

High tier Japanese Dd;s get a big increase in Torpedo dmg and Torpedo range.

 

Shimakaze deals 20k maximum dmg per torp,plus the 15+ km range,its not that bad as you think.

 

I suggest to reach the top tiers first so as to get more experience in them.Every line has its good and bad ships,you are getting the feeling of dissapointment because Minekaze is probably the best IJN DD overall.

 

Other classes get better? You havent played the T9 IJN BB Izumo....Utter crap of a ship,nothing compared to Amagi...

 

With more games,comes experience,

with more experience comes correct evaluations

 

Cheers

 

tier 5 minekaze fires 3x2 torpedoes with a range of 10km and a stock 47 seccond reload time doing 14400 dmg

 

shimekaze fires 3x5 you can chose from 2 torps realy i guess its a choise not an upgrade 20km or 15km with the 15km one haveing 2800 more dmg for a total of 23760 however it has a stock 153 seccond reload time thats 2 and a half minet reload

 

minekaze if all torpedoes were to hit can do 86400 dmg

shimekaze if all torps hit can do 356400 (one salvo of 5 can do 118800 dmg)

 

the yamato has 97000ish hp

 

both torpedo strives would do considrble damage with ther skimikaze winning on pure dmg output

now if we look at these at there most comparable

minekaze can fire 6 torpedoes at a time with a reload of 47 secconds stock

shimekaze can fire 15 with a reload time of 153 stock that works out to 51 secconds per torpedo salvo of 5

 

so

minekaze can fire 6 torps with dmg potential of 86400 every 47 secconds stock

shimekaze can fire 5 torpedoes with a damage potential of 118800 every 51 secconds stock

 

with the 10% crew reduction thats

minekaze can fire 6 torps with dmg potential of 86400 every 42 secconds with the commander skill

shimekaze can fire 5 torpedoes with a damage potential of 118800 every 45.9 secconds with the commander skill

 

so not a HUGE differance if you want to play concervitivly youi can lose torpedo waves relitivly often if you dont just send all 15 at a yamato when only 1 salvo is needed to destroy it

 

[Scilya]

oh i would also like seperate reload counters for the torpedo launchers would make things simpler

[Ixal]

The problem is simply that the T5 Minekaze is so OP that every destroyer after it feels like a massive downgrade. It has everything, speed, concealability, fast and powerful torpedoes, etc. The only thing it lacks is guns, but who needs that on an IJN DD?

 

The Shimekaze might be equal and better on paper, but she also fights against stronger enemies. A Minekaze  does not need the DPS of a Shimekaze as the enemies she faces have a lot lower HP.

[Kostis_Larsson]

I got the tier 4 (Isokaze) and i 'm happy, i don't want to play DDs in higher tiers.

[ttchip]

oh i would also like seperate reload counters for the torpedo launchers would make things simpler

 

When you select your torps you can see the reload timers for your launchers as if they were guns right above your skill bar.

[Abraa]

There is no progression after T5 JPN DD's.

 

Iso and Minekaze can do as much damage as Shimakaze, even tho HP Pool of opponents is almost threefold.

 

Did that in CBT, wont do it again.

[Scilya]

There is no progression after T5 JPN DD's.

 

Iso and Minekaze can do as much damage as Shimakaze, even tho HP Pool of opponents is almost threefold.

 

Did that in CBT, wont do it again.

 

well if you read the thread and saw my post you will see this is simply NOT TRUE,... so again here is where i broke it down

 

tier 5 minekaze fires 3x2 torpedoes with a range of 10km and a stock 47 seccond reload time doing 14400 dmg

 

shimekaze fires 3x5 you can chose from 2 torps realy i guess its a choise not an upgrade 20km or 15km with the 15km one haveing 2800 more dmg for a total of 23760 however it has a stock 153 seccond reload time thats 2 and a half minet reload

 

minekaze if all torpedoes were to hit can do 86400 dmg

shimekaze if all torps hit can do 356400 (one salvo of 5 can do 118800 dmg)

 

the yamato has 97000ish hp

 

both torpedo strives would do considrble damage with ther skimikaze winning on pure dmg output

now if we look at these at there most comparable

minekaze can fire 6 torpedoes at a time with a reload of 47 secconds stock

shimekaze can fire 15 with a reload time of 153 stock that works out to 51 secconds per torpedo salvo of 5

 

so

minekaze can fire 6 torps with dmg potential of 86400 every 47 secconds stock

shimekaze can fire 5 torpedoes with a damage potential of 118800 every 51 secconds stock

 

with the 10% crew reduction thats

minekaze can fire 6 torps with dmg potential of 86400 every 42 secconds with the commander skill

shimekaze can fire 5 torpedoes with a damage potential of 118800 every 45.9 secconds with the commander skill

 

so not a HUGE differance if you want to play concervitivly youi can lose torpedo waves relitivly often if you dont just send all 15 at a yamato when only 1 salvo is needed to destroy it

[Ixal]

so not a HUGE differance

 

You don't get it do you? There is a huge 5 TIER DIFFERENCE! A Minekaze will never fight a Yamato. Against the enemies a Minekaze fights her torpedo salvo is an instant kill even if only a fraction of them hit.

[Abraa]

 

well if you read the thread and saw my post you will see this is simply NOT TRUE,... so again here is where i broke it down

 

tier 5 minekaze fires 3x2 torpedoes with a range of 10km and a stock 47 seccond reload time doing 14400 dmg

 

shimekaze fires 3x5 you can chose from 2 torps realy i guess its a choise not an upgrade 20km or 15km with the 15km one haveing 2800 more dmg for a total of 23760 however it has a stock 153 seccond reload time thats 2 and a half minet reload

 

minekaze if all torpedoes were to hit can do 86400 dmg

shimekaze if all torps hit can do 356400 (one salvo of 5 can do 118800 dmg)

 

the yamato has 97000ish hp

 

both torpedo strives would do considrble damage with ther skimikaze winning on pure dmg output

now if we look at these at there most comparable

minekaze can fire 6 torpedoes at a time with a reload of 47 secconds stock

shimekaze can fire 15 with a reload time of 153 stock that works out to 51 secconds per torpedo salvo of 5

 

so

minekaze can fire 6 torps with dmg potential of 86400 every 47 secconds stock

shimekaze can fire 5 torpedoes with a damage potential of 118800 every 51 secconds stock

 

with the 10% crew reduction thats

minekaze can fire 6 torps with dmg potential of 86400 every 42 secconds with the commander skill

shimekaze can fire 5 torpedoes with a damage potential of 118800 every 45.9 secconds with the commander skill

 

so not a HUGE differance if you want to play concervitivly youi can lose torpedo waves relitivly often if you dont just send all 15 at a yamato when only 1 salvo is needed to destroy it

 

 

 

You clearly havent played high tiers, if you think 5 torps sink a yamato...

 

My statement is true and i can back it up, like ive done about twice a week since this topic is reoccuring.

 

Iso and Minekaze Damage is roughly the same as Shimakaze, thanks to arbitrary torp spotting mechanics as well as more planes in the air as well as ridicoulus reload times of T6+ DD's, even tho HP of opponents triple.

 

And besides, stating that there is not much of a difference in Iokaze and Shimakaze was my arguement to begin with.

 

 

 

[Scilya]

 

 

 

You clearly havent played high tiers, if you think 5 torps sink a yamato...

 

My statement is true and i can back it up, like ive done about twice a week since this topic is reoccuring.

 

Iso and Minekaze Damage is roughly the same as Shimakaze, thanks to arbitrary torp spotting mechanics as well as more planes in the air as well as ridicoulus reload times of T6+ DD's, even tho HP of opponents triple.

 

And besides, stating that there is not much of a difference in Iokaze and Shimakaze was my arguement to begin with.

 

 

 

 

hp of opoponents tripple the dmg of the torps more than tripple,... as i worked it out the reload time is perfectly fine

[ttchip]

hp of opoponents tripple the dmg of the torps more than tripple,... as i worked it out the reload time is perfectly fine

 

Jesus, mate. You worked out that Shimakaze has 30ish % more torp damage per time than Minekaze. What does that mean when your enemies have roughly twice the health? Exactly! You deal less effective damage because the hitpoint pool increased more than the damage per time! Couple that with increased size, reduced speed, worse camo and a lower accuracy on your torps because, hey, gotta make use of that 15-20km range. Hitting anything at that range without carpet-spamming your torps is basically a miracle at these distances. If you carpet, your hit rate is going to suffer. If your hit rate suffers, so will your average damage per time, meaning that effectively, Minekaze deals as much or more damage per time than Shimakaze.

 

All of this boils down to one simple issue: Average damage per game does not increase after tier 5 for IJN DDs. This is why people are complaining. This is why DDs do not work as intended at higher tiers. This is why there's no real progression for DD captains.

[Mister_Greek]

Yamato needs at least 12-15 torps to bring it down and that only if i dont have  Repair party.If i hit the HP recovery i gain 1/3 of my HP.Good luck for the next minutes against the 10 km (with upgrades) seondaries of the Yammy

 

My record torpedo hits were about 20 from Torpedo planes.A guy was trying to sink me for the entire match

[Abraa]

 

hp of opoponents tripple the dmg of the torps more than tripple,... as i worked it out the reload time is perfectly fine

 

 

No they dont.

 

Simple as that.

 

You're just a noob that doesnt know what he's talking about, you think 5 Torps sink a Yamato.

 

That might be the most dimwitted claim i've read on the forum in the past week.

[Ixal]

5 Torpedoes?

 (Yes, I know that was CB with much more powerful torpedoes than now)

[Mister_Greek]

5 Torpedoes?

 (Yes, I know that was CB with much more powerful torpedoes than now)

 

Lol that happens "sometimes" in the Yamato!

 

Dez reaction was hilarious!

[Scilya]

 

 

No they dont.

 

Simple as that.

 

You're just a noob that doesnt know what he's talking about, you think 5 Torps sink a Yamato.

 

That might be the most dimwitted claim i've read on the forum in the past week.

 

well take it up with the devs because it says in game in the ships stats,.. a full salvo of minekaze torpedoes do 86400

the shimiocaze can do 356400 which is over 3 times higher.

 

ALSO what i said was

 

minekaze if all torpedoes were to hit can do 86400 dmg

shimekaze if all torps hit can do 356400 (one salvo of 5 can do 118800 dmg)

 

the yamato has 97000ish hp

 

both torpedo strives would do considrble damage with ther skimikaze winning on pure dmg output

now if we look at these at there most comparable

 

no where did i say 5 torpedoes would sink a yamato so please stop makeing things up. all your arguments are bieng verry disengenuous considering we have the stats and can look at them.

all i said was there was no need to spam torps like there is no tommorow when you can stagger fire a salvo every 51 secconds or so for the whole match. please learn to read.

[Venatacia]

I found that you have to play more careful even to the point of staying out of battle somewhat - as in, not getting in close like you do at lower tier. The longer range Torpedoes can now travel down torp alleys while you sit back and stay out of the way. Don't think your not contributing because it does feel like that but bide your time. Only get close to your concealment range and then target weak ships that are out on there own or left behind by there main fleet. You have to play a different game I find compared to lower tier DD. It's almost a solitude life as a higher tier DD for the Japanese. Will pay off once you learn how to be more long range sniper, so to speak. It's just getting used to a different way of playing with the slower reloads and longer range torps. Hang in there and it should pay off OP.

[Abraa]

 

well take it up with the devs because it says in game in the ships stats,.. a full salvo of minekaze torpedoes do 86400

the shimiocaze can do 356400 which is over 3 times higher.

 

ALSO what i said was

 

minekaze if all torpedoes were to hit can do 86400 dmg

shimekaze if all torps hit can do 356400 (one salvo of 5 can do 118800 dmg)

 

the yamato has 97000ish hp

 

both torpedo strives would do considrble damage with ther skimikaze winning on pure dmg output

now if we look at these at there most comparable

 

no where did i say 5 torpedoes would sink a yamato so please stop makeing things up. all your arguments are bieng verry disengenuous considering we have the stats and can look at them.

all i said was there was no need to spam torps like there is no tommorow when you can stagger fire a salvo every 51 secconds or so for the whole match. please learn to read.

 

Could you possibly be more dishonest ?

 

DPM Is nowhere close to threefold, again you're just a noob trying to make things up since you never played DD high tiers and i wont let you get away with it.

 

 

You claimed Shimakaze does 3 times the damage, it doesnt even come close.

 

Fact remains, Iso/Minekaze can do as much dmg on average as the Shimakeze because of ridicoulous reload times.

 

 

 

 

[Scilya]

 

Could you possibly be more dishonest ?

 

DPM Is nowhere close to threefold, again you're just a noob trying to make things up since you never played DD high tiers and i wont let you get away with it.

 

 

You claimed Shimakaze does 3 times the damage, it doesnt even come close.

 

Fact remains, Iso/Minekaze can do as much dmg on average as the Shimakeze because of ridicoulous reload times.

 

 

 

 

 

i have no mentioned Anything about damage per min. torpedoes are not a dmp weapon anyway its all burst

 

fact is the salvo from the shilikaze is over 3 times more powerfull than the minekaze so yes it does 3 times the damage,.... anyone who can read can understand that

[Abraa]

ROFL, either you're dimwitted or just trolling- if it's the former you have my sympathies.

 

Here is my original claim, which you disputed:

 

 

There is no progression after T5 JPN DD's.

 

Iso and Minekaze can do as much damage as Shimakaze, even tho HP Pool of opponents is almost threefold.

 

Did that in CBT, wont do it again.

 

 

 

Anybody that is not borderline retarded can see that i was talking about AVERAGE DAMAGE AND NOT BURST DAMAGE.

 

Again, noob, stop talking about things you have no clue of.

[Kapten_Kaos]

Problem with DDs is the fact that they become less stealthy and nimble as you progress. This is true for every ship class, however DDs rely on it. CVs and BBs can take it because they dont rely on those stats. They simply get better, while the DDs change playstyle. It is a little unfair imo.

[Magni56]

My personal experience from the CBT going up all the way to the Kagero (and teh Fletcher on the US line) was that the mid-level DDs are in dire need of a reload reduction for their torps while the high-tiers could also use a slighter reduction. Shimakaze with thee large launchers gets somewhat around the issue as she has both flexibility and volume, but the Kagero with 2*4 and 2 minute reloads is just painful, to say nothing of the 2*3 arrangements with lenghty reload on Mutsuki and Hatsuharu.

 

The problem is that between longer launch distances and increased experience amongst players at higher tiers, you need to launch more torps on average to get the same number of hits you can get in the lower tiers - the increased damage is largely countered by higher healthpools all-around and icnreasingly better TDS on your main target (battleships). And now you need to do that with less flexible launcher arrangements that also give you less shots over a given amount of time - the Shimakaze is the only DD post T5 that even comes close to the Minekaze and Isokaze in terms of long-term volume of fire for her torpedos.

 

Pretty much all the T6+ DDs need torp reload reductions between 15-30 seconds on a per-case basis I'd say.