Japanese and American carrier difference

[Muhvi]

I think the fights that i have against other japanese carriers are much more fun as they are equal. Fight against US carriers is super frustrating if the enemy captain understands anything about tactics. You are unable to do anything to his planes while he can do anything he wants with yours.

Some people say here "lure to AA". Yeah, it has to be like super AA if you want it to work, and the problem is that you can't expect enemy captain to be an idiot for you. Sure it might work against idiots but against anyone else, nope. The fighters will shred you or you will not get much done.

If you have equal skill against US Captain, he can limit you severely while you are unable to do the same. I rather see Langley with more squadrons and equal fighters than any other combination. The current situation just plainly sucks, japanese fighters could be renamed unarmed scouts and it would be as apt description for them as they are now when they fight against US opponent.

 

With current mechanics, i think the fighter balance is the stupidest place to "make sides different". While we are at it, lets change MM too, lets make it so that only one side has destroyers, that will make the game super fun too for the other side and then the sides are even more different.

It is just super [edited]fun to run your planes around and hope the RNG gods would be on your side and the enemy captain is idiot and the ship AA works fast enough to get one fighter killed.

[Msiiek]

I think the fights that i have against other japanese carriers are much more fun as they are equal. Fight against US carriers is super frustrating if the enemy captain understands anything about tactics. You are unable to do anything to his planes while he can do anything he wants with yours.

 

Some people say here "lure to AA". Yeah, it has to be like super AA if you want it to work, and the problem is that you can't expect enemy captain to be an idiot for you. Sure it might work against idiots but against anyone else, nope. The fighters will shred you or you will not get much done.

 

If you have equal skill against US Captain, he can limit you severely while you are unable to do the same. I rather see Langley with more squadrons and equal fighters than any other combination. The current situation just plainly sucks, japanese fighters could be renamed unarmed scouts and it would be as apt description for them as they are now when they fight against US opponent.

 

With current mechanics, i think the fighter balance is the stupidest place to "make sides different". While we are at it, lets change MM too, lets make it so that only one side has destroyers, that will make the game super fun too for the other side and then the sides are even more different.

 

It is just super [edited]fun to run your planes around and hope the RNG gods would be on your side and the enemy captain is idiot and the ship AA works fast enough to get one fighter killed.

 

The higher you go the lower the difference is at fighters. At top tier IJN fighters can beat USN fighters. USN fighters are faster so IJN gets buff, and IJN gets more power from lvl 5 commander skill. Fighters setup doesnt give any exp to US cv (500 exp for a win when 30 planes shot down?) and IJN have so many squadrons, they can just swarm USN cv or lure fighters away with one squadron while other squadrons do their job. The only problem is that low tier ships dont have good aa, so they nerf health of the planes in lower tiers or buff low tier aa. And you wouldnt want to see 2 squads of USN torp bombers in low tier, Its already easy to get 100k dmg against noob bbs with 1 squadron. What would happen if they got 2 squads?

[Muhvi]

 

The higher you go the lower the difference is at fighters. At top tier IJN fighters can beat USN fighters. USN fighters are faster so IJN gets buff, and IJN gets more power from lvl 5 commander skill. Fighters setup doesnt give any exp to US cv (500 exp for a win when 30 planes shot down?) and IJN have so many squadrons, they can just swarm USN cv or lure fighters away with one squadron while other squadrons do their job. The only problem is that low tier ships dont have good aa, so they nerf health of the planes in lower tiers or buff low tier aa. And you wouldnt want to see 2 squads of USN torp bombers in low tier, Its already easy to get 100k dmg against noob bbs with 1 squadron. What would happen if they got 2 squads?

 

Well, if i was jesus and it was up to me, i would make all the carriers more customizable and AA more effective but maybe with more plane "inventory"(not more squadrons simultaneously). For example something like that all carriers have torpedo, fighters and bombers, it is just up to you which ones you put in air. Then AA would be much more powerful on other ships so bringing airplanes close them would soon create casualties even on lower tiers. Basicly forcing torp bombers either take casualties or make the torp runs from farther away. Dive bombers would be less affected by AA but even they would be more vulnerable on lower tiers than they are now. Higher tier might not need AA buff at all, maybe some tuning according these ideas but generally their "power" seem to be enough.

 

So basicly i'd make it so that skillful captain could conserve his planes more and be effective that way. I'd remove the difference between fighter planes on USN and IJN and make it so that captain skill was determining factor. I don't want to make it so that carriers are more powerful in general, i'd like to see it so that the carrier / plane doesn't make the game within +- 1 tier and country.

[deathrow222]

 

The higher you go the lower the difference is at fighters. At top tier IJN fighters can beat USN fighters. USN fighters are faster so IJN gets buff, and IJN gets more power from lvl 5 commander skill. Fighters setup doesnt give any exp to US cv (500 exp for a win when 30 planes shot down?) and IJN have so many squadrons, they can just swarm USN cv or lure fighters away with one squadron while other squadrons do their job. The only problem is that low tier ships dont have good aa, so they nerf health of the planes in lower tiers or buff low tier aa. And you wouldnt want to see 2 squads of USN torp bombers in low tier, Its already easy to get 100k dmg against noob bbs with 1 squadron. What would happen if they got 2 squads?

 

than you must have other fighters than me on tier 9, cuz my fighters loose time after time against usa ones, usa fighters at high tier can kill atleast 2 squadrons while my ijn fighters can only kill 2 planes before they are out of ammo. and what his planes didnt kill his aa will do it, so if they nerf low tier ijn cv than they also can nerf those high tier usa cv or atleast ballance it

 

[Auzor_S]

just had the following constalation. 2 cruisers (in division with the carrier) activated both their special skill as a normal squadron of fighters aproached my fighters squadron. even with support of two cruisers and another fighter squadron the US fighters killed both squadrons of japanese fighters and also the second squadron I have launched seconds later with just loosing 1 plane. and thats not the first time this happens in games I play japanese carriers and if a squadron of US is flying near your carrier you can go watch TV as you are not getting any plane launched. Yes maybe you can lure them away one time but the result is one more launch and all of your planes destroyed so you can drive around your useless chunk of japanese stell for the rest of the game or go on a suicide mission.

 

What tier was this? I'm guessing low tier-ish? (below tier 7?)

 

1) You can check the tech tree's: up to the A6m Zero the japanese fighters do 30 dps. There are 4/squad.

The USA fighters go slightly more gradual: they have a fighter that does 36 dps for example.

The USA fighters are 6 planes/squad, yours are 4. A significant difference. Because each aircraft deals dps. 

Let's say each aircraft does 30 dps, and has 720 health. 

720/6/30= after 4 seconds, you lose a plane. There goes 25% of your squads firepower.

4*30*4=480. You have left one enemy plane at 240 HP.

For 3 planes, they need 240/3/30=2.67 seconds to finish it. USA loses 16.7% of firepower.

2.67*30*6=480.6 damage to your second fighter.

How does dps and HP compares USA vs Japan?

At the start, it was 6*30=180 dps usa vs 4*30=120 dps Japan. Or, 3 vs 2.

Now, it is 5*30=150 dps vs 3*30=90. The relative difference increases.

Oh, and your second fighter is almost dead.

 

 

 

 

The USA carriers also have more AA, as do their cruisers and battleships.

 

On your carrier, you can upgrade the planes, but there is also a upgrade slot "air control module" or something.

Increases the guns of your aircraft by 10%.

Maybe he had this, vs you nothing etc.

 

2) HOWEVER:

given your description, I very strongly suspect the biggest difference is that the USA player had a high ranking captain, and unlocked the dogfighting perk.

I can only speak for "low" ranks, but it is completely overpowered.

This allows players to play a "low rank" ship, and completely rule the skies.

I remember a game, equal tiers, where I had upgraded fighters, the aforementioned +10% fighter guns buff, Japanese+USA carrier vs same, all tier 4.

USA vs USA fighter battle: friendly USA fighters wrecked, 6 fighters gone, no enemies taken out. No AA.

In go my Japanese fighters: take 3 down, but lose the squad. 

Round 2: 4 fighters vs his replenished squad, over friendly ships (but little AA at that tier): all 4 fighters wrecked, no enemy fighters taken out.

Chatted with the guy: he has the dogfighter perk..

Fighter to fighter, same tiers vs each other, he shot down 14 fighters, for the loss of 3 aircraft.

And that included USA aircraft. Of course, afterwards torpedo planes were being hunted.

My tier 4 carriers AA killed as many aircraft as my 8 fighters. (dodging torpedoes, and shot 1 fighter that was keeping my torp bombers grounded, until I of course, failed dodging torp runs)

Enough said?

 

Situation as it is, your only hope to destroy USA/dogfighting fighters outside of AA:

-Gang up on one squad

-Use bombers to lure (=sacrifice), let them be attacked, then attack his fighters from behind.

This partially relies on the enemy not redirecting his fighters to attack yours instead.

 

[Auzor_S]

 

The higher you go the lower the difference is at fighters. At top tier IJN fighters can beat USN fighters. USN fighters are faster so IJN gets buff, and IJN gets more power from lvl 5 commander skill. Fighters setup doesnt give any exp to US cv (500 exp for a win when 30 planes shot down?) and IJN have so many squadrons, they can just swarm USN cv or lure fighters away with one squadron while other squadrons do their job. The only problem is that low tier ships dont have good aa, so they nerf health of the planes in lower tiers or buff low tier aa. And you wouldnt want to see 2 squads of USN torp bombers in low tier, Its already easy to get 100k dmg against noob bbs with 1 squadron. What would happen if they got 2 squads?

 

Nerfing low tier plane health is a bad idea:

it increases the gap when a tier 5/6 carrier encounters a tier 4 carrier on the other side.

 

Give low tier cruisers some AA, so they can start playing escort if they want/the situation needs it.

And/or: even if the AA is weak-ish, give them the AA ability, so they can nerf enemy aircraft accuracy temporarily.

 

[Auzor_S]

thats not the question. ok again more clear:

 

1. "WHAT EXACTLY IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US AND IJN?"

2 "IF THE US HAS IMMORTAL FIGHTER PLANES WHAT DID WE GOT IN EXCHANGE?"

 

I would like to adapt my play style to it if I KNOW what exactly I´ve got in exchange for useless fighter planes

 

or is the answer "just accept the fact we made US better and learn to live with that"

 

its a simple question and I am ok if I get a honest answer even if it might be a bad news.

 

 

update...nice matchmaking btw me in a tier 4 against 2 carriers US one tier 6 one tier 5 ^^ thats just fantastic again. I cannot even launch anything guarded by two fighter plane squadrons all the time circling my carrier without bothering about any AA

 

USA vs IJN:

USA has fewer, but bigger squads.

USA has (relatively) more (and better) divebomber squads,

IJN has more torpedobomber squads.

USA has more AA

Example: starting out, IJN immediately gets 2 torpedo bomber squads. USA gets 1. 2 torp bombers means you can criss-cross drop the torps.

 

More squads and more torp bombers: let's take tier 7.

IJN: either 2 squads of each, or 3 torp & dive bombers, zero fighters.

USA: either 2 fighters, 2 dive bombers, zero torp bombers. (so 4 squads vs IJN 6! equal amount of planes in the air, until the tier 5 captain perk extra squad member, then IJN has more planes in the air) 

OR: 0 fighters, 1 (1!! torpedo bomber, 3 dive bomber squads).

 

now, I personally think the possible squad combos suck for both IJN and USA, oh well. 

But being at tier 7 with max 1 squad of torp bombers, in return for zero fighter squads, sounds very scary to me.

The default does give 1 of each for USA, so 1 fighter squad+1 torp bomber is possible, but then IJN tier 7 can have twice as many squads as you...

 

 

Tier 10?

         Fighters    Torp bomb   Dive bombs

USA:  2                     1                2

OR     1                     2               2

OR    3                      0                2

total 5 squads, and can't trade dive bombers for fighters or torp bombers. 

3rd loadout means areal supremacy pretty much.. but zero torp bombers.

 

         Fighters    Torp bomb   Dive bombs

IJN   2                     3                 2                   

OR   4                    2                  2             

OR  1                    3                   4 

A mistake IMO: IJN upgrades bring an extra squad (8 squads). For balance purposes, this means IJN has one less "optimal" loadout. 

 

7 squads. 7 vs 5: including captain perk for high rank gameplay, same number of aircraft.

The problem IMO is that this "perk" is pretty much mandatory.

Also note that upgraded, IJN actually has more aircraft airborne.

 

Auzors suggested tier 10 carrier loadouts however: 

USA:

2-1-2

1-2-2

3-1-1 (zero torp bombers sounds pretty harsh to me, and they are a core gameplay aspect of carriers)

 

IJN:

3-3-2 (by default, just an extra fighter squadron, to make each loadout have the same amount of squads)

4-2-2

2-3-3 (one IJN fighter squadron is too little probably)

 

[Gormadoc]

Dont know if this has been mentioned but.

 

The commander skill "Dogfighting expert" increases temporary attack firepower off planes if they have lower cruise speed than enemy.

 

Since US fighters have less cruise speed on all tiers from IV to IX this skil works in US favor.

Perhaps a tweak to this variable would be enough to even the balance a bit.

 

To my knowledge it is not specified how big this modifier is.

So it might be to small to make any real difference.

I gues only WG can answer that.

 

However it opens up for a deliberate tactic of having short engagement, break off just to resume combat shortly after.

 

Example: Engage enemy fighters in proximity of own ships, when ships get into AA range Jap player would likely be forced to break off.

Then US fighters can then follow and try to resume combat and get a second round of "temporary attack firepower"

 

If WG has coded the thing carefully, they have added a cooldown before skill can trigger again.

Is anyone aware of such a cooldown and duration?

 

The funny thing is when you get to US tier X this skill will be worthless since no enemy unit will have lower cruise speed.

 

The same can be said of the "expert rear gunner" no US planes has rear guns on tier X, only the dive bombers on tier IX has rear gunner.

So two out 5 dedicated carrier skills is worthless for a US commander on a tier X carrier.

 

But thats another discussion. Back to topic

[IJN_Taiho]

Each nation has its advantages and disadvantages.USN got the plane numbers and IJN got the the squadron numbers.When you have 2 for example fighter squadron at the mid tiers you just cant defend properly when the enemy ijn carrier decides to drop everything on you.You might live once but the second wave your out.Fighters also can now have an attack boost which depends on the speed difference between them and the enemy fighters.So now a dogfight is possible or even favorable towards you.The survivability...you can increase it by perks and by modules.And torpedoes...with usn i cant usually kill a cruiser or a destroyer unless its a pretty good and leaded drop..with ijn i can kill and ca and dds when they go on full speed cause of the wide spread..as i said each nation has its features and everyone can choose to and kill everything with ijn or dominate the air with usn.Of course i dont say the opposite isnt possible...stil a usn can one shot things and ijn can harass enemy planes.

[trrprrprr]

Really jap cvs are more op overall.  Im at bogue right now, all i have to play is 1torp/1fighter plane, while same tier jap have already 2torp planes and fighter squad or even more.  At next tier they already can use 3bomb/3torpedo, while USN still have only 2torp or 1/1/1 setup.   So you want to boost already OP japs with more fighters, so usn can be deleted after that?

 

If i play 2fighter squads/1 useless bomber that on manual aim will do 5k damage and then its pretty rare, while enemy japs have atleast few more planes to play with. even first tiers of cvs on usn side have max speed of16.4knt while japs move @ 30+ in early tiers, so alor better mobility and alot better chance to move up and down to reload planes better.

 

And in the end, usn have a fail games if they are the only cv in game, while japs will be happy in those matches with they op torp/bomb squads.   

 

 

So if they buff jap fighters, they will need to add around two more plane squads to usn each tier. Japs can dish out alot more damage per run if played right, usn have alot higher chance to lose torp planes on the move and love alot of potential damage per run.

[LtSmash9901]

at least wg need to make squadrons equal, 4 vs 4 or 6vs6

[159Hunter]

I can see where you are getting your opinion.

However, you need to look a slightly higher tiers ( VII and up ), that's where the IJN really start to shine. What you need to do as well is compare loadouts:

US fighter setup vs IJN fighter setup

US damage setup vs IJN damafe setup

You will see that at higher tiers the fighter setup for IJN still packs an enormous punch with both Dive AND Torpedo bombers. US CV will ONLY have Dive bombers.

In damage setup you will do insane amount of damage AND have a decent amount of fighters. US CV has to wait till Essex before having damage setup with fighters. And that's just 1 squadron, any decent IJN carrier can deal with those with his two suadrons.

 

As for the torpedo spread: yes they are different, but with this IJN cone, boy you can do some amazing things

[Hauptbahnhof]

at least wg need to make squadrons equal, 4 vs 4 or 6vs6

 

Yes. And they need to make all nations destroyers and cruisers carry identical number of torpedoes and guns too!

 

//end sarcasm...

[ReynoldsXD2]

Hey someone explain to me why the t6 Jap carrier gets to have 3 fighter squds, a dive bobmer and a tb while my t6 USA carrier either has 2 fighters and one DB or NO fighter and 1 TB and 2 DB.

 

how about we go about fixing this crapfirst.

 

 

[gr0pah]

Hey someone explain to me why the t6 Jap carrier gets to have 3 fighter squds, a dive bobmer and a tb while my t6 USA carrier either has 2 fighters and one DB or NO fighter and 1 TB and 2 DB.

 

You forgot the best option: 1/1/1.