Cleveland shell velocity

[wibe33]

     So i had a few games in my newly acquired Cleveland and i can't seem to get used to it's shell velocity and rather high firing arc. I had it also in CB but i don't remember it being like this. It's especially infuriating when an Omaha (which i love btw and had really good performance in) can beat a Cleveland at moderate ranges, maneuvering to avoid fire from Cleveland's really slow shells while dishing out in return with better shell speed (which always hits because Cleve is a pretty big target). Surprisingly though Cleveland did have the 47/ Mk16 6 inch guns which lost a few hundred feet/s of shell velocity, which is true and could/should be in the game but ingame they feel waaaay slower than Omahas guns. I should mention i haven't got the upgraded guns module but on paper it only increases DPM and nothing else.

     Anyway is there any of you guys that have difficulty hitting targets that are fast at more than let's say 10km out? What are some of your advices? And is there any hope that shell speed will be buffed in the future? 

Thanks.

[Dukemeister]

I had exactly the same experience. However i don't have the second hull and turrets yet, it makes it hard to predict the shell landings since the shell velocity is so low. Makes it quite easy to avoid this shells also unless u can get in closer range. 

I have to avoid Omaha and even Phoenix cruisers since they have a higher aiming time and shell velocity and they will slaughter me off. Also this thing seems prone to modular damage a lot.

Maybe things will change when i have it fully upgraded but for now its a bit of a dissapointment when hearing all the good stories about the Cleveland. Sure it has  lot of firepower but whats the use of that when 50% falls near the target.

 

 

 

[Panocek]

Shell velocity IS slow in Cleve, upgraded or not. Primaries range upgrades (gun control module, Advanced Firing Training) results in pretty neat 17.5km, but time to impact at that range is 17s. Basically only purpose for that is forcing people to maneuver, to slow them down. Otherwise don't expect to have decent hit rate, at one point mine dropped to 16%, now its 18% I think. At shorter ranges and/or not evading targets its DPM can be brutal tho.

 

On other hand, Cleve can nicely lob shells over islands

[stanoo1]

I rushed to cleveland as i was reading everywhere how good it was. Loved saint luis, phoenix and the top was omaha ( once managed this http://s1.postimg.org/n7vemcuin/shot_15_07_12_09_51_00_0569.jpg ), but i wasn't using torps that much, so i thought Cleveland will be at least  a switch to full guns. But the horrible gun arc and gun velocity makes it impossible to hit any situational aware cruiser from 10km+, further away even battleships can dodge some quite effectively. For now i don't see cleveland as an upgrade to omaha and my performance is seriously worse. Maybe it will improve when i get used to the arc more, but i doubt i will get to the avg performance i had i omaha so for now i am quite disappointed. I also hate the "nerf style" as they have basically added randomness with that shell velocity and arc, because player can aim perfectly, and have no control if a second player manages to move it's ship a little during that 15 sec fly time.

[Bushpanther]

I also rushed up to the Cleveland expecting it to be a blast, as everbody and their granny on this forum tells that it's borderline OP. Only to discover that my performance dropped like a brick compared to my performance in the Omaha.

 

While the Cleveland spams HE by the bucketload it's pretty hard to reliably hit targets at over 10k because of the long flight time of the shells. Under 10k you can land some solid hits. Than again, That close to the enemy I'm usually ending up priority target of any red ship in range, and unlike the Omaha the Cleveland is not very good at dodging incomming fire. I keep getting surprised by how quick the HP of the Cleveland can dwindle under such circomstances. Like it has no armor at all.

 

I quess I'll go for the full AA setup for this ship, as it's just not a brawler. Luckily I kept my Omaha, which I find is a far better credit-grinder.

[wibe33]

@Panocek

It seems to me that having all that range when it takes years for your shells to land is quite useless really. I'd much prefer just good fast firing guns like Omaha. Unless the gain/rewards substantially improve for assisting other players with anti-air, Cleveland will remain a very limited and not-fun-to-play ship for me.

 

I loved the Omaha fast gunning platform playstyle much more.

Since they added things like armor and deck armor improvements to BBs, 6inch guns don't really have any impact on them. It's funny that the only thing you can hit reliably is slow, lumbering BBs but other than setting them on fire there's not really much to do, while the one thing that it would excel at you can't do because faster ships can just avoid your shots. And it's health drops fast if you ever get too close to someone. It seems it's only real strong point is really good AA capability but then again you don't earn that much credits and experience from doing only that and relying on your team is ...well chancy at best, especially in Domination mode. You can't babysit your team's BBs if they stray off and not play the objective. It's a tough ship, that's the truth of it. Here's hoping they improve the shell speed someday, also really hope the Pepsicola (heh) is better, at least it gets better guns.

[Finnka]

Ok - is cleveland now bäd? My main goal? crap and [edited]. I have seen a lot of videos about Cleveland and made my choice. 

 

 

Shell velocity is essential yes. 

 

And tnx for a information

 

 

[b101uk]

the problem seams to be, they are using the 21lb reduced charge muzzle velocity based on a 130lb AP Mark 35 (super heavy) shell of >625m/s, rather than a 33lb full charge velocity of >762m/s for a 130lb AP Mark 35 (super heavy) shell, while ignoring the 33lb full charge >812m/s of the 105lb HC Mark 34 & HC Mark 39 (both HE shells)

 

(muzzle velocity based on a new gun barrel), its also worth noting that while the 6"/47 Mark 16 guns could fire both 130lb and 105lb shells, the 6"/53 Marks 13 & 16 (Omaha) were limited to 105lb shells only which it used a 44lb full charge given they were limited in elevation.

 

IRL

at 20deg elevation a 6"/53 Marks 13 & 16 (Omaha) gun has a range of 19.29km using a 44lb charge with a 105lb AP shell, while the 6"/47 Mark 16 (Cleveland) guns at 22.3deg have a range of 18.29km using a 33lb with a 130lb AP shell, so in reality the Omaha and Cleveland should have relatively similar ballistics when BOTH are firing 105lb shells, as its only above 18.2km that the gun elevation starts to ramp up out to 23.88km at 47.5deg elevation for Cleveland with a 130lb shell, given most of the guns on Omaha would have been limited to 20deg elevation being casemate mount with only the twin turret being able to go to 30deg (23.13km range with a 105lb AP).

 

so in short the disparity of "artilleryShotspeed" listed on the wiki of 6 for Cleveland vs. the "artilleryShotspeed" for Omaha of 7.5 or that of Murmansk of 8.6 needs looking into.

 

NOTE: the above dose not account for the need to scale range down for the purpose of map size etc

 

 

[allufewig]

Yup, disliked Cleveland for exactly that reason. Or more like, I had too high expectations in the ship. Hitting stuff at ranges exceeding 10km is near impossible unlike firing at battleboats.

 

And thats the Crux: You want to stay at long range, because at close range, where you could rip apart stuff, you get ripped apart yourself. At the distances youre pretty safe your prey is also pretty safe from you.

 

Another downside of the high arc is citadelling stuff at midranges from 6-8k. Omaha and Phoenix work like a charm at this distances, while the Cleves shells come in to high, denying you Penetration (or at least citadeling) near the waterline on enemy cruisers. It is damn cool in Cleveland to give an enemy cruiser like 6 citadels in one broadside from ~4km, but that happens so rarely.

[Vanhal]

So that's why Clevelands ignore anything else than BB's... That would also explain my horrible experience with it in CBT, when i liked every single US cruiser except this one.

[Panocek]

the problem seams to be, they are using the 21lb reduced charge muzzle velocity based on a 130lb AP Mark 35 (super heavy) shell of >625m/s, rather than a 33lb full charge velocity of >762m/s for a 130lb AP Mark 35 (super heavy) shell, while ignoring the 33lb full charge >812m/s of the 105lb HC Mark 34 & HC Mark 39 (both HE shells)

 

(muzzle velocity based on a new gun barrel), its also worth noting that while the 6"/47 Mark 16 guns could fire both 130lb and 105lb shells, the 6"/53 Marks 13 & 16 (Omaha) were limited to 105lb shells only which it used a 44lb full charge given they were limited in elevation.

 

 

IRL

at 20deg elevation a 6"/53 Marks 13 & 16 (Omaha) gun has a range of 19.29km using a 44lb charge with a 105lb AP shell, while the 6"/47 Mark 16 (Cleveland) guns at 22.3deg have a range of 18.29km using a 33lb with a 130lb AP shell, so in reality the Omaha and Cleveland should have relatively similar ballistics when BOTH are firing 105lb shells, as its only above 18.2km that the gun elevation starts to ramp up out to 23.88km at 47.5deg elevation for Cleveland with a 130lb shell, given most of the guns on Omaha would have been limited to 20deg elevation being casemate mount with only the twin turret being able to go to 30deg (23.13km range with a 105lb AP).

 

 

so in short the disparity of "artilleryShotspeed" listed on the wiki of 6 for Cleveland vs. the "artilleryShotspeed" for Omaha of 7.5 or that of Murmansk of 8.6 needs looking into.

 

 

NOTE: the above dose not account for the need to scale range down for the purpose of map size etc

 

 

 

inb4 "its balancing reasons"

[b101uk]

 

inb4 "its balancing reasons"

 

 

 

 

 

if it was for "its balancing reasons" then it is STILL broken given at 9km plus is MUCH easer to hit a Cleveland with an Omaha or Phoenix by orders of magnitude than it is for a Cleveland to hit Omaha or Phoenix, when it comes to some of the IJN cruisers at 11km plus you can send out >400 hundred shot and you will be lucky to get 30 hits simply as they just steer away from where they know they will hit.

[Panocek]

 

 

 

 

 

if it was for "its balancing reasons" then it is STILL broken given at 9km plus is MUCH easer to hit a Cleveland with an Omaha or Phoenix by orders of magnitude than it is for a Cleveland to hit Omaha or Phoenix, when it comes to some of the IJN cruisers at 11km plus you can send out >400 hundred shot and you will be lucky to get 30 hits simply as they just steer away from where they know they will hit.

 

ikr

 

I guess logic behind was like "it has whooping 12 cannons, lets make sure they won't hit too often"

[b101uk]

 

ikr

 

I guess logic behind was like "it has whooping 12 cannons, lets make sure they won't hit too often"

 

but you said:

 

inb4 "its balancing reasons"

 

 

so your obviously talking through your arse, and like I said its NOT balanced or the correct "trait" even allowing for range scaling for the purpose of gameplay.

 

 

what next, a "learn to play" post?

[Panocek]

 

but you said:

 

 

so your obviously talking through your arse, and like I said its NOT balanced or the correct "trait" even allowing for range scaling for the purpose of gameplay.

 

 

what next, a "learn to play" post?

 

You're new to Wargaming titles? Balance is something WG not always does best. And making vehicles blatantly OP/broken yet unplayable is their specialty actually. With Cleveland being decent example of it, great DPM crippled by awful shell velocity.

 

And don't bring "historical accuracy" - WG uses that whenever fits them, if they cannot use that it will be "balance reasons". Somewhat historically accurate can be appearance, vehicle performance can, but doesn't have to be even remotely similar to real life counterpart.

[Sharon_Valerii]

Are we playing the same ship? The sheer amount of citadel hits I can dish out with Cleaveland is definitely better than with Omaha. And to be completely honest, without this topic, I wouldnt even think about shell velocity on Cleaveland, since I found it... just OK and adjusted for it. Now I'm reading I'm not suppose to hit anything beyond 12k and I should feel undewhelmed how worse it is compare to Omaha...

[Panocek]

Are we playing the same ship? The sheer amount of citadel hits I can dish out with Cleaveland is definitely better than with Omaha. And to be completely honest, without this topic, I wouldnt even think about shell velocity on Cleaveland, since I found it... just OK and adjusted for it. Now I'm reading I'm not suppose to hit anything beyond 12k and I should feel undewhelmed how worse it is compare to Omaha...

 

You can get hang of worse velocity, but if you happen to be in slugfest against Phoenix or Omaha (or any reasonably agile ship for that matter) that actually can bother themselves to dodge at 12km or more, getting upper hand might no be that obvious. At closer distances or against not maneuvering ships I have no trouble delivering 152 samples of freedom.

[allufewig]

Are we playing the same ship? The sheer amount of citadel hits I can dish out with Cleaveland is definitely better than with Omaha. And to be completely honest, without this topic, I wouldnt even think about shell velocity on Cleaveland, since I found it... just OK and adjusted for it. Now I'm reading I'm not suppose to hit anything beyond 12k and I should feel undewhelmed how worse it is compare to Omaha...

 

 

Closerange (unless you run into Omahas torps) it beats the Omaha no problem. Citadeling the enemy possible, more guns, more DPM, more HP, Cleve is hard to citadel herself.

 

The fight is not so easy for the higher tiered ship once distance exceeds 8km. I would even say at 10km+ and given enough time every half-decent Omaha player would win over the Cleveland.

[Sharon_Valerii]

Ok so evenso I like my Cleveland, we established that it's a step back. But i really think its due to transition from light cruiser to heavy cruiser thus changing your role in battle. 

 

So that leads me to the question whenever next tier - Pensacola is a step forward or not?

[allufewig]

Ok so evenso I like my Cleveland, we established that it's a step back.

 

As a whole? No. Its only a step back when you solely look at long-range-artillery fighting capabilities and maybe citadelling from midrange onwards. Cleveland is a step forward in many other aspects.

[Panocek]

Ok so evenso I like my Cleveland, we established that it's a step back. But i really think its due to transition from light cruiser to heavy cruiser thus changing your role in battle. 

 

So that leads me to the question whenever next tier - Pensacola is a step forward or not?

 

Step forward? Not really, but then, mine is still stock.

 

203mm have decent shell velocity, so no issue with that. Bigger issue is slower turret traverse (especially stock 45s...) and slow reload, after you're used to "quantity over quality" in Cleveland. AA is kind of different - Pepsi have worse long range AA (8vs12 5in guns) but noticeably better mid and close range.

[Eternus_Damnatio]

The gun arc on the Cleveland is a bloody joke trying to hit anything at range is next to impossible. You have to aim off so far to acct for the shell travel time and while your shells are en route the target just changes course.

Up close say under 10k it gets better but then what the hell is the point of having the extra range over the Omaha if it is useless not to mention you now get no torps to fight in close range with.

I agree that this ship is a step back lose torps and get extra range that is pointless so you need to get in close exposing yourself to more accurate fire from enemy ships at closer ranges.

WG pls sort out the gun arc no drastic changes but it needs adjusting of that I am certain.

[BorgWarrior]

the cleve is still the best CL available guys, you just have to learn to do the proper long range shooting with it. Trust me.

 

[Eternus_Damnatio]

the cleve is still the best CL available guys, you just have to learn to do the proper long range shooting with it. Trust me.

 

You are obviously getting people that don't know they can just move to avoid your shots I absolutely hate this ship at the moment and am just so glad I kept the Omaha.

[BorgWarrior]

*yawn* yea, sure buddy, i can only hit stationary targets at long range. Have you ever heard of predicition?