Time for a more serious balance discussion

[TheJezna]

 

 

 

At least I hope it is. The whine threads about poor BB players getting owned came as no surprise to the CBT community, rather it was very much expected. As people start to understand the game, this will die down and some people will start noticing the real issues that are in the game.

 

One of these I hope enough people are starting to see is how badly wrecked destroyers are in the current game state. Yes, destroyers. Sure, alot if new players probably still think they are godlike trollships, that however is only due to ineptitude. As things are, low tier, up until tier 5 is fairly ok for IJN DDs. After thus however, the class develops extremely slowly compared to other classes. And while a Minekatze can be fine when facing Omahas and Kumas, DDs at the next couple of tiers are barely improved and still has to face things like Clevelands, Atlantas or Mogmis. 

 

Turning to the US side, things are even worse, since even the low levels are screwed right now. They have worse concealment then their jap counterparts, less agility, are slower and have torpedoes that not only requires you to go into detection range to use, you even have to get very close to, or inside of BBs secondaries range. This combined with the recent nerfs to smoke, DD HE damage, increased risk of getting engine or stearing knocked out etc. Basically, USDDs are only fir masochistic players who really want to challenge themselves. Try to come up with anything USDDs can actually contribute to their team in a significant and reliable way. So basically, I would like to have a discussion about how DDs in general, but USDDs specifically can be buffed to be viable classes to invest time in, while not making them OP. And what could be done to put DD progression in line with other classes after t5. And yes, I know the top tier is great for both lines, even t9 for USDDs, but the vacuum from t5 until the top needs fixing IMO.

 

Cheers

[Hanszeehock]

Good post. Have to agree that DDs particularly USN have been over nerfed. The proof of this is in the low numbers of DDs in the queue and the rarity of low tier US DDs.

[Vanhal]

Time for a more serious balance discussion = buff the destroyers.

Ok.

Although US DD seems to magically disappear after 3rd tier, so something indeed seems off.

[MudMonkey]

Yup, well done OP. Thats what I am saying the whole time, too.

[Dai2]

 

 

 

At least I hope it is. The whine threads about poor BB players getting owned came as no surprise to the CBT community, rather it was very much expected. As people start to understand the game, this will die down and some people will start noticing the real issues that are in the game.

 

One of these I hope enough people are starting to see is how badly wrecked destroyers are in the current game state. Yes, destroyers. Sure, alot if new players probably still think they are godlike trollships, that however is only due to ineptitude. As things are, low tier, up until tier 5 is fairly ok for IJN DDs. After thus however, the class develops extremely slowly compared to other classes. And while a Minekatze can be fine when facing Omahas and Kumas, DDs at the next couple of tiers are barely improved and still has to face things like Clevelands, Atlantas or Mogmis.

 

Turning to the US side, things are even worse, since even the low levels are screwed right now. They have worse concealment then their jap counterparts, less agility, are slower and have torpedoes that not only requires you to go into detection range to use, you even have to get very close to, or inside of BBs secondaries range. This combined with the recent nerfs to smoke, DD HE damage, increased risk of getting engine or stearing knocked out etc. Basically, USDDs are only fir masochistic players who really want to challenge themselves. Try to come up with anything USDDs can actually contribute to their team in a significant and reliable way. So basically, I would like to have a discussion about how DDs in general, but USDDs specifically can be buffed to be viable classes to invest time in, while not making them OP. And what could be done to put DD progression in line with other classes after t5. And yes, I know the top tier is great for both lines, even t9 for USDDs, but the vacuum from t5 until the top needs fixing IMO.

 

Cheers

 

*am waiting for Takeda to post his signature*

Hum I agree DDs are over Nerfed, however ,Because of the fact there are so many BBs in the queue , And because I am And was a DD specialist, I have 80 - 90% WR in my minekaze. OK its in 13 or 15 games... but that still is a lot.

So yeah. The fact they are bad is compensated by the fact that the BBs we are torping are all noobs and by the fact the 2 people in the queue in BBs are CBT or even AT Veterans.

[Hanszeehock]

Minekaze is a bad example. Good concealment, long range and fast torps. What would your WR be in the Nicholas ? 

[Dai2]

Minekaze is a bad example. Good concealment, long range and fast torps. What would your WR be in the Nicholas ?

 

'I dont play USN DDs because I dont like to be seen in my DD.

Which is maybe a problem.

[Hanszeehock]

Point is no one wants to play USN DDs as they are currently useless.

[Outlawz0111]

I agree with the OP what he said mostly. Some threads did exist about DD's, until the OBT started and the whines have been constant sadly so they are buried now.

[lebed0s]

DDs in general are over nerfed. 

There are too many planes -> the main advantage of camo is gone. On higher tiers people are aware how to sail torpedo safe and US DDs have very limited chance to score any torpedo hits.

 

On the other hand MM constantly wins games for teams who have more CVs.

I have made a research and 90% losses I got during last three days were matches where enemy team had the only or more CVs than mine. 

One image for all what happens if CV has no opposition:

Yep, thats right. This is a carrier with 10 kills that was uninterrupted from the beginning of the game. And even when the rest of enemy team was completely brainless, this carrier just had enough time to gradually torp everything. 

This completely ruins the game atm because the result is predetermined by MM before single shell is fired. 

 

No other class ingame can influence the result so much like single unbalanced CV. 

This needs to be fixed ASAP, as it will put off many players that just recently started with the game. 

 

[Del_Mare]

as right now, their role is taken over by fast cruisers. their main advantage, the camo in combination with the smoke got nerfed hard. while jpn can still manage to get good results, even they suffer massively to the high chance of engine and rudder knockouts. yes, the chance was high in closed beta also, but right now its is more like "engine down" *repair* "engine down* within 10 seconds. a good cruiser in decent range given, of course.

 

what to do to compensate? well, in closed beta we talked a lot about reducing their reload times of their torps in the tiers 5++

right now i would vote for a more sturdy engine and rudder

 

the USN-DD's are another matter. they are seen from miles away, are slow and got their teeth pulled out with the gunnery related nerfs. played them up to wickes, but stopped now and do not intend to keep that line. while i know they need a complete different approach in gameplay, they are not the "DD-hunters" anymore their line was so well known for.

 

how can we buff them? the design was: bad torps, good guns. so i would focus on the turrets... higher muzzle velocity and thus less lead to hit targets would enhance their abilities again to hunt jpn DD's.

 

 

[Dai2]

Soooooooooooooooo

This thread started as buff DDs and now its nerf CVs?

FML.

[Vaderan]

Considering the fact that this threads intention was to start a serious discussion, it turned rather fast into a "XX class is too strong and DDs are overnerfed" whine of "DD fanboys".

So, to honour the OPs basic idea, let´s try to come back to the constructive discussion: how to change or adapt the DD class and it´s branches to make/keep them compeditive without making them overpowered?

 

If you refer to Ectars statement (i think it was him, if i remember right), DDs are (or should be) basically a CV hardcounter with the bonus of being able to counter any other class with the risk of getting wrecked because of their fragile physics.

In addition to the general role WG wants to place on a class, WG also is ambitious in delivering special characteristics for a nations techtree. Regarding the DD tree, this means, that IJN DDs receive the role of the stealthy assasine, while USN DDs receive the (not so thankfull) role of a brawling gunboat.

The difference between both classes is obvious: while IJN DDs can do their stealthy business, USN DDs have to give away their position as soon as they want to do anything else but being passive scouts.

So much for the obvious facts and the characteristics.

 

Now put this concept into relation with the designated, primary role, Ectar declared on the DD class: hardcounter to CVs. Without any preocupation, is it possible for a DD to hunt down a CV? Well, yes, and no.

Yes, if it manages to slip through the lines of enemies, no if the enemy knows what to do to prevent DDs slipping through their lines effectively. Yes, there are CVs which can cause some troubles against DDs, because they got nasty secondary batteries, and since their divebombers got buffed and their fighters posess the ability to keep a DD spotted once he got detected, the job of a DD has become tougher than ever. But this only applies if the CV invests a lot of his attention and several squadrons of planes into dealing with this DD, and if allied ships engage on him.

Any halfway skilled DD player would see it as an insult if he would be told: you are not capable of sinking a lone CV. Of course the player would be able to do so, but not due to the abilities of his DD class, but only because of his skills.

The reality out there, in 3 out of 5 games is, that most CV players still tend to stay way back behind their allied forces. They still provide single targets to any who manages to break through. IJN DDs stlill have the ability to engage and launch torpedoes unsees, just the (poor) USN DDs have to reveal themselves. But, for compensation (at least in WG thinking) they receive fast turning, rapid firing, highly accurate guns.

In theory, both classes are still able to perform as hardcounter to CVs. Since a maximum of 2 CVs is what can be placed on any team, each DD has a stock of 2 Fog charges and 2 engine boosts. So, in (WG) theory, a DD can make a "boost" run on a CV, launch his full armament of torps at close range, turn, smoke and run away.

Thats why WG obviously seems to be fine with what they did with DDs.

 

However, we, the players, got used to do different with the DDs during the CAT and CBT. DDs were the weapon against everything, at the cost of fragility. But since they had up to 5 smoke charges, any DD was allowed to perform hilarious torp runs at any target with the chance of retreating unseen. The hardcounter against CVs turned into an area denial weapon and counter against anything within range.

DD players got used to it, as BB players got used to precision longe range plunging fire. The (self-)understanding of the DD class turned from CV-hardcounter into raiders of the seas.

The last patch ended this understanding in a drastical way. Well, that´s what i read all the time, at least, since i didn´t take out my Sims for a run since the wipe, so i can´t comment.

However, if we return to the core question, there will still remain the answer, that DDs can perform in their role as CV hardcounter, as good or as bad as any other class can perform in it´s designated role. BBs still hardcounter CAs. CA players claim them OP for that. As a CA player, i get enrage when my citadell is blown out by an enemy BBs. But, to be honest, it happens by far more rarely than i deserve to get spanked. BBs suffer that much from RNG, that i more often own them with HE and fire, than they do with their big shells. CAs still hardcounter DDs. Well, if they hit them. But if you ask any DD captain, we/he will almost all tell them, that their nasty, fast firing guns just wreak too much havoc on the fragile DDs and their modules.

DDs (especially the IJN ones) still hardcounter CVs. We all know the situation, when that fat CV is just sitting still, unaware of our presence. Delicious! Well, USN DDs now have the challanging part... but they got the tools aswell.

The story of CVs and BBs is no different. There are always the few BBs who excell at dodging most torpedoes, but the mass of the (fresh) OBT BB captains still take massive beatings from CVs, especially when veteran captains are piloting them.

Besides their hardcounter abilities, all classes still can threaten all other classes, but it takes skill and a bunch of luck, sometimes.

 

So, how will you change DDs? What do you want? And how? Without putting them back into that one role, all the (maybe a little bit spoiled?) veterans want them back: the area denial weapon and versatile raider?

Noone ever complained about the DD class fragility, since it is taken as given. It didn´t matter that much before 0.4.0, since smokescreens allowed to run and hide anyway, allowing for attackruns and leaving unpunished.

So, noone demands thicker armor or more HP. Maybe tougher modules, to prevent engine or rudder damage with every third hit (which feels like each hit taken).

What is missed the most, and complained the most aswell, is the nerf to the smoke screen. DD players want the return of their 5 charges with long deployment time, so they can return to the "old" playstyle.

However, it seems like WG just wants to prevent exactly that. Just like they want to prevent BBs citadelling repeadetly with insane RNG. Or... (just name the recent changes on other classes that happened during the last patches).

Since IJN DDs still seem to do halfway well, and even top tier USN DDs seem to be "strong" enough, the question to be handeled should be: what to with mid and low tier USN DDs to make them attractive, keep em compeditive but don´t op them and make them still different to IJN DDs.

 

My suggestion would be: make their torpedoes faster, their spread tighter, their guns more dangerous to soft targets (if they aren´t already) give them the edge in terms of agilty above IJN DDs.

I don´t know how you see it, but when i´m in one of my low tier IJN DDs, the last ship i want to confront is an USN DD. They always feel like the true hardcounter to the IJN DDs for me, as far as i can judge.

However, besides all the justified wishes for DDs being a compeditive class, able to perform their role as CV hunters, WG turned around just in time to make all new OBT testers get used to the DDs as just that: CV hunters. Not universal riders.

[Dai2]

Considering the fact that this threads intention was to start a serious discussion, it turned rather fast into a "XX class is too strong and DDs are overnerfed" whine of "DD fanboys".

So, to honour the OPs basic idea, let´s try to come back to the constructive discussion: how to change or adapt the DD class and it´s branches to make/keep them compeditive without making them overpowered?

 

If you refer to Ectars statement (i think it was him, if i remember right), DDs are (or should be) basically a CV hardcounter with the bonus of being able to counter any other class with the risk of getting wrecked because of their fragile physics.

In addition to the general role WG wants to place on a class, WG also is ambitious in delivering special characteristics for a nations techtree. Regarding the DD tree, this means, that IJN DDs receive the role of the stealthy assasine, while USN DDs receive the (not so thankfull) role of a brawling gunboat.

The difference between both classes is obvious: while IJN DDs can do their stealthy business, USN DDs have to give away their position as soon as they want to do anything else but being passive scouts.

So much for the obvious facts and the characteristics.

 

Now put this concept into relation with the designated, primary role, Ectar declared on the DD class: hardcounter to CVs. Without any preocupation, is it possible for a DD to hunt down a CV? Well, yes, and no.

Yes, if it manages to slip through the lines of enemies, no if the enemy knows what to do to prevent DDs slipping through their lines effectively. Yes, there are CVs which can cause some troubles against DDs, because they got nasty secondary batteries, and since their divebombers got buffed and their fighters posess the ability to keep a DD spotted once he got detected, the job of a DD has become tougher than ever. But this only applies if the CV invests a lot of his attention and several squadrons of planes into dealing with this DD, and if allied ships engage on him.

Any halfway skilled DD player would see it as an insult if he would be told: you are not capable of sinking a lone CV. Of course the player would be able to do so, but not due to the abilities of his DD class, but only because of his skills.

The reality out there, in 3 out of 5 games is, that most CV players still tend to stay way back behind their allied forces. They still provide single targets to any who manages to break through. IJN DDs stlill have the ability to engage and launch torpedoes unsees, just the (poor) USN DDs have to reveal themselves. But, for compensation (at least in WG thinking) they receive fast turning, rapid firing, highly accurate guns.

In theory, both classes are still able to perform as hardcounter to CVs. Since a maximum of 2 CVs is what can be placed on any team, each DD has a stock of 2 Fog charges and 2 engine boosts. So, in (WG) theory, a DD can make a "boost" run on a CV, launch his full armament of torps at close range, turn, smoke and run away.

Thats why WG obviously seems to be fine with what they did with DDs.

 

However, we, the players, got used to do different with the DDs during the CAT and CBT. DDs were the weapon against everything, at the cost of fragility. But since they had up to 5 smoke charges, any DD was allowed to perform hilarious torp runs at any target with the chance of retreating unseen. The hardcounter against CVs turned into an area denial weapon and counter against anything within range.

DD players got used to it, as BB players got used to precision longe range plunging fire. The (self-)understanding of the DD class turned from CV-hardcounter into raiders of the seas.

The last patch ended this understanding in a drastical way. Well, that´s what i read all the time, at least, since i didn´t take out my Sims for a run since the wipe, so i can´t comment.

However, if we return to the core question, there will still remain the answer, that DDs can perform in their role as CV hardcounter, as good or as bad as any other class can perform in it´s designated role. BBs still hardcounter CAs. CA players claim them OP for that. As a CA player, i get enrage when my citadell is blown out by an enemy BBs. But, to be honest, it happens by far more rarely than i deserve to get spanked. BBs suffer that much from RNG, that i more often own them with HE and fire, than they do with their big shells. CAs still hardcounter DDs. Well, if they hit them. But if you ask any DD captain, we/he will almost all tell them, that their nasty, fast firing guns just wreak too much havoc on the fragile DDs and their modules.

DDs (especially the IJN ones) still hardcounter CVs. We all know the situation, when that fat CV is just sitting still, unaware of our presence. Delicious! Well, USN DDs now have the challanging part... but they got the tools aswell.

The story of CVs and BBs is no different. There are always the few BBs who excell at dodging most torpedoes, but the mass of the (fresh) OBT BB captains still take massive beatings from CVs, especially when veteran captains are piloting them.

Besides their hardcounter abilities, all classes still can threaten all other classes, but it takes skill and a bunch of luck, sometimes.

 

So, how will you change DDs? What do you want? And how? Without putting them back into that one role, all the (maybe a little bit spoiled?) veterans want them back: the area denial weapon and versatile raider?

Noone ever complained about the DD class fragility, since it is taken as given. It didn´t matter that much before 0.4.0, since smokescreens allowed to run and hide anyway, allowing for attackruns and leaving unpunished.

So, noone demands thicker armor or more HP. Maybe tougher modules, to prevent engine or rudder damage with every third hit (which feels like each hit taken).

What is missed the most, and complained the most aswell, is the nerf to the smoke screen. DD players want the return of their 5 charges with long deployment time, so they can return to the "old" playstyle.

However, it seems like WG just wants to prevent exactly that. Just like they want to prevent BBs citadelling repeadetly with insane RNG. Or... (just name the recent changes on other classes that happened during the last patches).

Since IJN DDs still seem to do halfway well, and even top tier USN DDs seem to be "strong" enough, the question to be handeled should be: what to with mid and low tier USN DDs to make them attractive, keep em compeditive but don´t op them and make them still different to IJN DDs.

 

My suggestion would be: make their torpedoes faster, their spread tighter, their guns more dangerous to soft targets (if they aren´t already) give them the edge in terms of agilty above IJN DDs.

I don´t know how you see it, but when i´m in one of my low tier IJN DDs, the last ship i want to confront is an USN DD. They always feel like the true hardcounter to the IJN DDs for me, as far as i can judge.

However, besides all the justified wishes for DDs being a compeditive class, able to perform their role as CV hunters, WG turned around just in time to make all new OBT testers get used to the DDs as just that: CV hunters. Not universal riders.

 

No. WG stated that it worked this way : BBs counter CL/CAs , CL/CAs countered DDs , and DDs countered BBs.

CVs were supposed to beat everything at long range and to be beaten by everything at short range.

   Start at 2:20

[blinkster]

DD dont need much of a buff(changes) all DD need some tweaking at torpedo detection and some DD needs better numbers at spot range/torpedo range.

Was thinking something like if someone from enemy team spots torps,he will be the only one who sees them,the rest of the team wont be able and reduce the spot range of torps with 300m.

[Orlunu]

If you refer to Ectars statement (i think it was him, if i remember right), DDs are (or should be) basically a CV hardcounter with the bonus of being able to counter any other class with the risk of getting wrecked because of their fragile physics.

DDs are not an effective counter to CVs.  The CV is the class most able to flee without reducing its damage output, and (especially if it uses its DBs properly), it takes an age for a DD to catchup, as well as making it impossible to use a DD's most effective weapons.  What DDs are best against are BCs.  The entire following section is pointless, as this is not a role DDs should be pushed into: it just doesn't make sense.

 

DDs (especially the IJN ones) still hardcounter CVs. We all know the situation, when that fat CV is just sitting still, unaware of our presence. Delicious! Well, USN DDs now have the challanging part... but they got the tools aswell.

No.  Being able to kill a mentally crippled enemy with ease does not make one a hard counter.  Not even close.

 

So, how will you change DDs? What do you want? And how?

 

Changes to torpedo detectability for better in-class balance, mainly.

 

Since IJN DDs still seem to do halfway well, and even top tier USN DDs seem to be "strong" enough, the question to be handeled should be: what to with mid and low tier USN DDs to make them attractive, keep em compeditive but don´t op them and make them still different to IJN DDs.

 

Give them competent captains.  They're more than competitive and always have been.

 

The whole "CV hard counter" spiel is nonsense.  They don't counter CVs any better than a cruiser does.

 

 

 

No. WG stated that it worked this way : BBs counter CL/CAs , CL/CAs countered DDs , and DDs countered BBs.

CVs were supposed to beat everything at long range and to be beaten by everything at short range.

   Start at 2:20

 

You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

[Galadul]

 

The whole "CV hard counter" spiel is nonsense.  They don't counter CVs any better than a cruiser does.

 

 

 

 

You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

 

True, CVs have no counter other than another CV. Which really is top notch game design.

[Grimdorf]

Good post. Have to agree that DDs particularly USN have been over nerfed. The proof of this is in the low numbers of DDs in the queue and the rarity of low tier US DDs.

 

Agreed.

I have no intention of touching the US ones at all now, and will only play the mid tier IJN ones which still have a chance and some "fun" factor.

 

ps. and LOL to the "chase a cv" ...seriously at mid to high tiers they are nearly impossible to catch.

and thats assuming you can get past any crusiers.....and all the damn planes......without being spotted too early.

 

pps Seriously the DD's with detection ranges around 7km (if you are lucky and dont get spotted by planes) and torp ranges of less than 6km are all but a waste of time on many maps.

 

# What can be buffed for US dd's (and certain IJN ones) ?

 

Well for starters there needs to be a better balance between dd detection range, the range of their torps, and the torp detection range. Some torp ranges are simply too short to be usable. So either make torp range a minimum of 7km and/or reduce DD detection range a bit.

 

Having to get within 4km to stand a decent chance of getting hits basically means its a suicide run and even then many ships can out turn your torps....or simply slow down or speed up to avoid most of them.

A crusier or BB that gets within 4km of another ship simply can't miss at that range....a DD's torps can. So something is off.

 

A big problem in higher tier games is way too many planes all over the place, making it nigh impossible to not get spotted, and then generally any Cruiser in range will take potshots at you. So a nerf to detection ranges from carrier planes should be done. (IMO this makes sense as they would likely be flying high on their way to their target, not bloody scanning the ocean for a tiny DD)

 

 

[Orlunu]

True, CVs have no counter other than another CV. Which really is top notch game design.

 

CVs are countered by a lot of other ships, they just aren't "hard counters", just as CVs don't "hard counter" anything themselves.

[Admiral_noodle]

My friend just managed 7 kills in a Wickes. Meanwhile I just can't play DDs

As for no hard counter to CV... When you find it its defenceless. My Omaha another cruiser and two DDs found both enemy carriers near each other today. It was a massacre!

[Grimdorf]

My friend just managed 7 kills in a Wickes. Meanwhile I just can't play DDs

 

Yeah you can get lucky and encounter a bunch of noobs.......but not often.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

Sometimes there's no need to change the ships - because changing playstyle would achieve better results.

 

If WG starts to adapt ships to the abilities of stupid players, the game won't get better, but worse, for all the non-stupid players.

[Ranzir]

USN DDs are blast to play atm, but I suspect it is mainly because sheer amount of new players sailing around in BB's. They corner islands wrong, generally have bad situational awareness and sail in straight lines way too much.

Smoke atm is fine, 5 charges and low cooldown was way OP in beta, now smoke is really smt you have to use sparingly and plan your gameplay accordingly.

 

 

 

 

USN DD downsides are well known to everyone here, so not gonna go trough them again, rather here are my suggestions to improve their situation:

 

1. Rework plane detection system: keep spotting range on planes same or even increase it a bit, BUT when you get lit up by a plane you will only become visible to CVs (i.e. they can attack you), however other enemy team members only see you on minimap (as hollow triangle). This should give enuff warning to enemies that you are around, but DD won't get instantly obliterated by cruisers and BBs on enemy team.

 

2. Reduce the time you stay spotted after firing, this 15s or so is just BS. Especially US DDs that are supposed to use their guns suffer from this way too much. And even if you manage to shoot without getting spotted, you will get spotted if you happen to get within sight of some plane or ship when you move out of cover even when you are not in their spotting range... that is just BS.

 

3. Give US DDs more speed and agility, not heaps but 2-3 kn more. Right now even Japanese CVs can almost outrun you, making torping them nearly impossible (if they play decently).

 

That should make things bit better and maybe keep USN DDs as viable option even after players skill levels have developed to normal level.

[Dai2]

USN DDs are blast to play atm, but I suspect it is mainly because sheer amount of new players sailing around in BB's. They corner islands wrong, generally have bad situational awareness and sail in straight lines way too much.

Smoke atm is fine, 5 charges and low cooldown was way OP in beta, now smoke is really smt you have to use sparingly and plan your gameplay accordingly.

 

 

 

 

USN DD downsides are well known to everyone here, so not gonna go trough them again, rather here are my suggestions to improve their situation:

 

 

1. Rework plane detection system: keep spotting range on planes same or even increase it a bit, BUT when you get lit up by a plane you will only become visible to CVs (i.e. they can attack you), however other enemy team members only see you on minimap (as hollow triangle). This should give enuff warning to enemies that you are around, but DD won't get instantly obliterated by cruisers and BBs on enemy team.

 

 

2. Reduce the time you stay spotted after firing, this 15s or so is just BS. Especially US DDs that are supposed to use their guns suffer from this way too much. And even if you manage to shoot without getting spotted, you will get spotted if you happen to get within sight of some plane or ship when you move out of cover even when you are not in their spotting range... that is just BS.

 

 

3. Give US DDs more speed and agility, not heaps but 2-3 kn more. Right now even Japanese CVs can almost outrun you, making torping them nearly impossible (if they play decently).

 

 

That should make things bit better and maybe keep USN DDs as viable option even after players skill levels have developed to normal level.

 

1) I suppose if a floatplane spotts you then you are spotted only for the floatplane's owner , right?

2)Its 20 seconds

3)DDs from the US are not as maouverable as you would think IRL...

[Ranzir]

 

1) I suppose if a floatplane spotts you then you are spotted only for the floatplane's owner , right?

2)Its 20 seconds

3)DDs from the US are not as maouverable as you would think IRL...

 

 

1. Yes off course, maybe CVs as well.

 

 

2. Even worse then ;)

 

 

3. I know, but for better gameplay that would better choice than torps having more range / faster speed, which would be even more unrealistic. After all BBs seem way more agile than they should be.