Jap CV vs US CV

[Andreevson]

US CV OP, plz buff IJN CV(from an IJN CV player)

 

Id prefer if they nerf US CV instead.

[ArtyIsWorseThanCorona]

well... i play both CV's ...

 

and i feel that US is overpowered. 

 

IJN has better torpedos, but you launch them widley and you have less planes in a group. so here US wins. 

 

Fighters... well here is just nothing to say... US are pretty much OP. if you wan't to keep this pharameter then IJN should have double the planes on board... just to have some chance.

 

 

US CVs have more Torp Damage + way better spread. Tier 9/10 have 2 Torp Squads = 12 Torps like Hakuryu BUT higher Torp Dmg and better spread = more Torps hit ;)

Totally IJN has the better Torps.

 

 

 

Id prefer if they nerf US CV instead.

 

Yep especially Midway needs a nerf

[FloRead]

I can't believe the number of times I am quoting this data from http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20151017et/average_ship.html this week.

 

nation	class	tier	name	players	total battles	average of rates
						battles	win	draw	lose	exp	damage caused	warship destroyed	aircraft destoryed	base capture	base defense	survived	kill / death	point
JP	CV	4	Hosho	10974	61666	5.62	51.94	2.29	45.77	1105	37264	0.82	6.58	0.19	0.51	55.98	1.45	18384
JP	CV	5	Zuiho	9327	54474	5.84	53.39	1.33	45.28	1311	37207	0.74	8.12	0.15	0.46	58.71	1.41	19450
JP	CV	6	Ryujo	4759	29573	6.21	53.52	0.56	45.92	1474	33518	0.61	11.62	0.02	0.14	66.54	1.34	20511
JP	CV	7	Hiryu	1863	13272	7.12	53.40	0.50	46.10	2024	45902	0.84	16.66	0.02	0.11	73.23	1.90	22370
JP	CV	8	Shokaku	538	4913	9.13	50.06	0.06	49.88	2156	49046	0.74	15.53	0.00	0.00	68.67	2.17	23634
JP	CV	9	Taiho	159	1597	10.04	43.01	0.04	56.95	2653	72123	0.98	19.03	0.00	0.00	68.45	2.54	23555
JP	CV	10	Hakuryu	110	1087	9.88	45.37	0.00	54.63	2969	89831	1.05	19.72	0.00	0.00	66.98	3.27	22466
US	CV	4	Langley	20101	115305	5.74	47.39	2.39	50.23	915	23995	0.47	10.80	0.09	0.35	47.84	0.76	17262
US	CV	5	Bogue	14947	87022	5.82	49.26	1.54	49.20	1073	18262	0.34	14.66	0.06	0.31	48.95	0.56	18022
US	CV	6	Independence	5527	36342	6.58	49.78	0.64	49.58	1491	26648	0.48	13.04	0.04	0.11	65.37	1.06	19858
US	CV	7	Ranger	1905	18526	9.72	49.46	0.42	50.12	1807	39981	0.67	17.91	0.01	0.12	62.34	1.65	23200
US	CV	8	Lexington	642	6099	9.50	51.22	0.14	48.63	2184	45222	0.69	24.91	0.00	0.00	69.97	1.94	24512
US	CV	9	Essex	162	2572	15.88	53.35	0.09	46.55	2890	79481	1.21	19.83	0.00	0.00	70.09	3.76	29785
US	CV	10	Midway	108	1657	15.34	51.70	0.00	48.30	3554	112780	1.55	22.07	0.00	0.00	67.57	5.27	29869

 

First, the bugbear. Midway and Essex needs nerfing in my opinion.

 

Next, the T4-8 IJN vs USN CV balance. Constantly, the non-stop cries about US fighters tearing up IJN fighter squadrons. Yet there is that consistent trend. IJN CVs win more, do more damage and sink more ships than the USN CVs from T4-8. Although I would argue that T8 is actually the most balanced.

 

So let's assume we listen to most of the people on this thread. We buff up IJN torpedo spread, up IJN torpedo damage, improve IJN fighter performance. What should happen next? Look at the T4-8 stats, and make an educated guess to what will happen? 

 

IJN fighter buff means the USN will be able to control the skies less and intercept fewer IJN strikes. That means IJN average damage goes up. IJN fighter buffs means the IJN may actually be able to hit back harder at the USN strike squadrons. Potentially USN average damage might drop.

 

IJN torpedo damage and torpedo spread buff happens. No doubt about that. Average damage will go up.

 

Look at those stats again. Are you really asking for nerf hammer round 2?

[RogDodgeUK]

moved to In-Game Ships / Carriers

[Crimean]

I have Zuiho and I battle with/against US CV. Check the tablo above. Zuiho do double damage of Bogue but Bogue shots more (double) plane. How you gain money and XP in game? DOING DAMAGE. US CVs really help their allies but gain nothing even shot 40 planes but JP CVs have more torpedo planes and gain even make two attacks and helps team too. Air superiority is fine but gain nothing as player. No idea about upper tiers. Some games I am top XP player.

[theWulfen]

What I'm missing in the data is the Random/co-op battle spread. I make lots of airplane kills in my Hosho! Against bot Hosho in co-op.... who always leaves his fighters guarding the carrier

But I'm getting better at timing torpedo drops and moving the planes so they do not do strange moves before dropping torps. Should be ready for Random battle soon

[satnikray]

Yes WG, an excellent way to ruin your own game...
When i played in CBT, i went for the US CV line, only to get raped by IJN CVs, so i thought lets go IJN CV now.... only to get now raped by US CVs?

Keep it up, you might lose some good players!

Your CV setup is worthless to say at least, how can a IJN  4 plane setup beat an US 6 plane setup... explane that to me pls!

And could you do something pls with the Ranked MM... its so retarded!

[satnikray]

 

 

 Every time I come into the forums theres a new post about CV`s and it seems that most don`t like the unbalance that the IJN CV`s have with the over powered USN CV`s!!

 

 

ARE YOU LISTENING WG !!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Probably not as their about to nerf the IJN CV`s...YET again with a drop in torpedo dps and a different even more annoying spread for torpedos

No weapon upgrade for TB`s and DB`s from 4 to 10 (USN do have upgrade`s all the way up to 10 !)

No decent spread

NO chance against USN fighter groups

 

 

Gonna look into this whole CV fiasco WG ??

 

 

NO BLOODY CHANCE !!

 

WG and listening.... send them money and they will listen!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DJ_Die]

Yes WG, an excellent way to ruin your own game...

When i played in CBT, i went for the US CV line, only to get raped by IJN CVs, so i thought lets go IJN CV now.... only to get now raped by US CVs?

Keep it up, you might lose some good players!

Your CV setup is worthless to say at least, how can a IJN  4 plane setup beat an US 6 plane setup... explane that to me pls!

And could you do something pls with the Ranked MM... its so retarded!

How about using your brain and not attacking US PFs directly? Better yet draw him above on Omaha or something to even the odds? You will outdamage him anyway it's easy really

[Hairlock]

IJN Carriers are deadlier to ships but they cannot fly at all unless USN Carriers let them. Fighter setup USN Carriers simply paralyze IJN Carriers. As IJN Captain, there is nothing you can do unless enemy USN captain plays badly. Otherwise just pass to next game...

 

 

 

 

Totaly agree.

[MeglerSmekk]

IJN Carriers are deadlier to ships but they cannot fly at all unless USN Carriers let them. Fighter setup USN Carriers simply paralyze IJN Carriers. As IJN Captain, there is nothing you can do unless enemy USN captain plays badly. Otherwise just pass to next game...

 

 

Not true at all from my perspective. When I got to an Independence I gave up and went for a 2 fighters 1 divebomber setup. I did this because during the Bogue and start of the Independence run I was constantly overrun by Japanese fighter setups (That also had friggin torpedobombers, I couldnt believe it when I saw it.) With a fighter setup I was able to shut down the IJN CV most of the time, but I couldnt do crapwith my 1 DB anyway. So the game was pointless for both me and the IJN CV. But it was the only choice I had. There is now way an experienced IJN captain lets me use tactics like "lure his 3 fighter Group" over friendly AA. It was so boring however that I went back to the stock setup on my ranger. And when I meet a IJN fighter setup, my fighters and bombers are soon dead, while he keeps his TBsquad running all along. If they removed the TB from the IJN fighter setup, and replaced it with a DB, you would see alot less IJN fighter setups, and because of that a lot less USN fighter setups.

[TankinAttack]

This is the first time I am writing to this forum (and maybe the last) but I just want to state my experience on this "balance"

 

As stated before USN have issues against Japanese <t8. The problem is the balance of flight modes itself. I am currently playing at t7 where the situation is even worse. I USED to play the typical 1-1-1 in order to be helpful to my team and score some serious dmg. The situation against a competent IJN player (2-2-2) is the following:

 

His 2 fighters squads ALWAYS kill my single squad...and I have all the necessary captain and ship upgrades. The rest of his planes are then free to mame and kill our ships. By the time I launch the new one he has already replenish his and the show goes on...In the end I am able to kill his fighters (by hiding next to allied ships) but in the meantime he has scored SERIOUS dmg compared to me.

 

Many USN captains are so pissed of this that they mainly play 2-0-2 nowadays at least in 80% of games I ve seen ...

 

So all in all 1-1-1 cannot win either versus USN or IJN cvs. And this brings serious balance issues...I know the solution is at t8 but...but...

 

 

 

PS: I am aware of all the hints and tips etc etc...but starting out in a disadvantageous position is the reason of this post.

[Spellfire40]

The problem is the unbalanced loadouts. Why does US have to play with one squad less if it wants fighters and Torpedobombers? Its no fun to play! Shokaku/hirujo are good examples for Fun CV as is Lexi.Good balanced loadouts.The 2ed thing is the Dogfighting ability wich favors the allready stronger US in all but 2 Tirs, Also planespeed at high end is so fast thats basically a constant game of chicken because stike planes are nearly as fast as fighter. Who drags who over their AA CA aura 1st.

[lankylad11_lankylad]

the way to fix CV is to take some torpedo bombers away from IJN air superiority loadouts and/or give Essex and Midway 3/1/1, or take Hak down to 4/1/3 and Taiho 3/1/3

[Spellfire40]

the way to fix CV is to take some torpedo bombers away from IJN air superiority loadouts and/or give Essex and Midway 3/1/1, or take Hak down to 4/1/3 and Taiho 3/1/3

 

You realize that the Taiho in fighter loadoud does rather low anti ship damage ? T9 Fights are full of CA fighters that will mess up 8 out of 10 atacks and the rest is a case of fokused AA fire that will kill 2 out of 4 before they can drop anyway?.  and No you cant escot your stike planes because your likely to face an stike Essex and if you make one mistake there your dead instantly.

[lankylad11_lankylad]

its the fact that the japanese can go air superiority and get two torp squads so do good damage, where as the americans can't get any, so likely won't so you immediately have the japanese getting air superiority with multiple fighter squads against the americans one squad

[Hauptbahnhof]

its the fact that the japanese can go air superiority and get two torp squads

 

You mean it's a fact that the Japanese can go air superiority on tier 10 and get the same amount of torpedo bombers their tier 4 or tier 5 strike deck gets, right?

 

Doesn't sound so overpowered anymore now does it?

[FloRead]

 

You mean it's a fact that the Japanese can go air superiority on tier 10 and get the same amount of torpedo bombers their tier 4 or tier 5 strike deck gets, right?

 

Doesn't sound so overpowered anymore now does it?

 

About as much as the Midway can go air superiority and get 0 torpedo bombers.

 

But just like lower tier USN CVs cannot completely stop IJN strike decks, IJN air superiority cannot completely stop USN strike either.

[TekumzeWolf]

 

The damage difference between Hosho and Langley at tier 4 is easily explained (Haven't tested other carriers yet).

 

The below text is an observation from my tests in co-op games (to make it easier to test as bots are more predictable). Tests were made against BBs.

 

Langley is not worse. It is however harder to play. If you're an experienced captain you'll make both ships perform. Anyways here's what my observation was:

 

Hosho: 

2 squads of torpedo bombers, faster planes and faster torpedoes. It's easy to score hits even if you misjudge the speed of the ship and drop badly. The wild spread that Japanese planes have will is likely to get you a hit. If you miss you have a second squad to correct your mistake AND the planes are faster (and are rearmed faster) so you can make another attempt relatively soon (compared to Langley).

 

Even with good torpedo runs you won't get more then 2 hits per squad (4 for both squads combined). Spread is just to wild to get more hits.

 

Langley:

Single set of bombers, slower planes, slower torpedoes and a tighter drop make the speed/direction evaluation skill waaaay more important. Make a mistake and you can miss completely. There's no wild torpedo spread to "bail you out" of your bad drop and get at least one hit. 

 

When you make a good drop however the torp strike is exponentially more lethal then anything the Hosho can do. You will surely land 4 hits and will land 5 occasionally..

 

A miss will however cost you dearly as you have to wait very long for the planes to get back, rearm and fly back to target.

 

My conclusion:

I think the difference in planes (speed, torpedo speed and spread, rearmament speed) make Hosho a more "noob friendly" ship since it forgives lower quality approaches a lot more then Langley which is why people in Hosho on average do more damage in Hosho. 

 

If you however put two experienced captains in those ships they will be close to equal damage wise.

 

If you pit them against each other the Langley will make its fighter presence felt and will possibly neutralize one Hosho torpedo squad while still making its own devastating torpedo hits. Hosho player needs to pull out all his tricks to not lose all his planes while attempting to land torpedo hits. Patience and situational awareness are crucial. If you fail to see Langley fighters approaching your squad you can kiss it goodbye and after that you're in real trouble.

 

[ApesTogetherStronK]

I have genuine trouble understanding why those Langley scores are so low, it is superior to the Hosho in every way despite it's lack of tactical mobility. 

 

[Hauptbahnhof]

I have genuine trouble understanding why those Langley scores are so low, it is superior to the Hosho in every way despite it's lack of tactical mobility. 

 

 

Tight drop that takes skill to pull off + small agile ships as target + slower planes and torps + most of the beginning CV players use autodrop = bad score.

[TekumzeWolf]

 

Tight drop that takes skill to pull off + small agile ships as target + slower planes and torps + most of the beginning CV players use autodrop = bad score.

 

If I am reading patch notes correctly IJNtorps are gonna have the same speed as US ones. That should drop IJN carrier damage at lower tiers.

 

And just to confirm what Hauptbahnhof (main railstation ) said. I managed to dodge a Langley strike with my Wyoming.

The guy made bad initial run and had to readjust twice losing 2 planes in the process. Then I think he gave up and made an auto attack with 4 planes enabling me to squeeze between the torps since the drop was similar to what Japanese planes have (with only 4 in squad).

 

A good captain would have landed 2 at least. I mean come on... a Wyoming moves like a beached whale. I should have never been able to dodge a full strike.

[Hauptbahnhof]

 

A good captain would have landed 2 at least. I mean come on... a Wyoming moves like a beached whale. I should have never been able to dodge a full strike.

 

Wyoming actually turns surprisingly fast (small turning circle), and is quite short so it is pretty good at dodging/squeezing between torps!

 

 

 

If I am reading patch notes correctly IJNtorps are gonna have the same speed as US ones. That should drop IJN carrier damage at lower tiers.

 

It may be compensated if they scale the drop circle size with plane speed. Then really slow low tier torp bombers get a much smaller drop circle and easier time to hit.

[Captain_Midway]

Well its true that Us Planes are much more Op but there noting that can be done. For US Carrier game players its happiness Clear Sky's but for Japanese, well get ready to be shot down.

But id you look at the positive, planes take off and land much quicker than Us and they have more planes in spare for Japanese. And If You count properly, Us have 6 planes per squad while Japanese have 8 - 12 - 16 depending on the Tier. (I may be wrong).

[Hauptbahnhof]

 

But id you look at the positive, planes take off and land much quicker than Us and they have more planes in spare for Japanese.

 

Are you sure about this? I know a Japanese squad is faster, but is it really faster per plane? 

 

If the US landing, servicing and takeoff times per squad are 50% higher then the Japanese, the time per plane is still identical.

 

 

More spare planes is certainly wrong for higher tiers, low tiers neither side has that many spare planes ( but Japan has a few more ), overall it probably evens out.