Spanish Tech Tree Proposal

[chamorro]

allright, after the comeback, time for the first premium ship!

 

SPANISH AA LIGHT CRUISER, MÉNDEZ NÚÑEZ

 

Historical info sum-up

 to come.

 

Possible stats in the game

• Survivability:
   HP: 25000

• Artillery:
   8x1 120/45mm Mark IX guns shielded; range: 11.5km, Max HE dmg: 2000, Max AP dmg: 2000

• Torpedoes:
   2x3 533mm torpedo tubes equipped with Si270/533.4x7.2 "M" torpedoes

           range: 7km, max dmg: 9500; speed: 55 knots; 1.2 rpm

• AA:
    8x1 120/45mm Mark IX guns shielded; range: 5km, dps: 24

   4x2 37mm/L83 SK C/30; range: 3.1 km, dps: 32

   4x4 20/65mm Flak 18 C/43 in special mount; range: 2.1km, dps: 80

• Manouverability:
   Speed: 29 knots

[Iron_Gekko]

Just curious, since I don't know too much about the Spanish Navy. At the time did they have their own ship industry or where the ships purchased from other countries?

[Historynerd]

Just curious, since I don't know too much about the Spanish Navy. At the time did they have their own ship industry or where the ships purchased from other countries?

 

Not quite... both the España- and the Canarias-class were built in Spain, but by companies composed by British firms like Vickers and others, for example.

[Iron_Gekko]

 

Not quite... both the España- and the Canarias-class were built in Spain, but by companies composed by British firms like Vickers and others, for example.

 

So it could be built on a preexisting module/ship when it comes available like the Murmansk? Just saying that the RN properly will be there first

[Historynerd]

 

So it could be built on a preexisting module/ship when it comes available like the Murmansk? Just saying that the RN properly will be there first

 

No, the Murmansk was simply transferred to Russia as it was; these Spanish ships were designed and built with foreign assistance, but they weren't modified copies of British ships, although some choices reflected the British philosophy.

[Tomerell]

Tier	BB	Cruiser	DD
1		Júpiter
2		Reina Regente	Alsedo
3	España
4		Navarra
5	Salamis	Blas de Lezo
6		Almirante Cervera	Churruca
7		Canarais
8	Modified Littorio
9
10		Proyecto 138

 

My rough outline to build it around.  Carriers are disturbing, other than the Canarais conversion, I only ever saw tiny things.

 

I hope Spanish Navy enthusiastic's dont flare up, but when BB is called Salamis, I know I have to have it 

 

[Benaguasil]

I have find one proyect of DD that it could fit in high tiers like tier x, the project 148 A (the information is in spanish):

DIMENSIONES
Desplazamiento standard: 3.060t
Desplazamiento a plena carga: 4.221t
Eslora: 131m
Manga: 12,5m
Puntal: 7,45m
Calado: 3,54m
VELOCIDAD
42 nudos
Autonomia a 18 nudos: 7.500 millas
Capacidad máxima de combustible: 967t
PROPULSION
2 turbinas Reteau-Chantiers
4 calderas
Potencia máxima: 90.000hp
ARMAMENTO
8 cañones de 120mm
12 cañones de 37mm en montajes dobles
1 cañon de 20mm
8 tubos lanzatorpedos de 533mm en montajes dobles
2 morteros lanzacargas de profundidad
1 varadero
1 equipo paravanes
TRIPULACIÓN
279 hombres

 

[chamorro]

 

Not quite... both the España- and the Canarias-class were built in Spain, but by companies composed by British firms like Vickers and others, for example.

 

Just curious, since I don't know too much about the Spanish Navy. At the time did they have their own ship industry or where the ships purchased from other countries?

 

Actually no, the designs were based on British designs, but were built by Spanish companies, the last time Vickers built a ship for Spain was on the earlies 1900s

Both Canarias class and España class were built in Spain by SECN and other spanish companies. The España used british advice on its design, even though it was not based on anything previously built.

Canarias was based on the County class, but was built by SECN aswell.

 

PS: SECN was a subsidiary of Vickers, but was a spanish company based in Spain

 

EDIT: yes, just checked again, and the last thing Vickers built for Spain was in 1898, the Furor-class destroyer, Proserpina

 

[chamorro]

I have find one proyect of DD that it could fit in high tiers like tier x, the project 148 A (the information is in spanish):

DIMENSIONES
Desplazamiento standard: 3.060t
Desplazamiento a plena carga: 4.221t
Eslora: 131m
Manga: 12,5m
Puntal: 7,45m
Calado: 3,54m
VELOCIDAD
42 nudos
Autonomia a 18 nudos: 7.500 millas
Capacidad máxima de combustible: 967t
PROPULSION
2 turbinas Reteau-Chantiers
4 calderas
Potencia máxima: 90.000hp
ARMAMENTO
8 cañones de 120mm
12 cañones de 37mm en montajes dobles
1 cañon de 20mm
8 tubos lanzatorpedos de 533mm en montajes dobles
2 morteros lanzacargas de profundidad
1 varadero
1 equipo paravanes
TRIPULACIÓN
279 hombres

 

 

 

Already knew about such design, but...

The problem with such destroyer would be the number of torpedoes, I considered it on TIX, as a replacement on Lepanto.

But for the moment, until I get to the spanish archives, I will leave the DD line as it is.

[Historynerd]

 

 

Actually no, the designs were based on British designs, but were built by Spanish companies, the last time Vickers built a ship for Spain was on the earlies 1900s

Both Canarias class and España class were built in Spain by SECN and other spanish companies. The España used british advice on its design, even though it was not based on anything previously built.

Canarias was based on the County class, but was built by SECN aswell.

 

PS: SECN was a subsidiary of Vickers, but was a spanish company based in Spain

 

 

Yes, but the majority of the stocks were owned by John Brown and Vickers-Armstrong. 

 

Just to say, the armament for some Italian battleships came from firms such as the Armstrong-Pozzuoli and the Vickers-Terni; although based in Italy and Italian companies, it would be disingenuous to claim that as a result these naval guns were Italian-made.

It's pretty much the same thing with these ships...

[chamorro]

 

Yes, but the majority of the stocks were owned by John Brown and Vickers-Armstrong. 

 

Just to say, the armament for some Italian battleships came from firms such as the Armstrong-Pozzuoli and the Vickers-Terni; although based in Italy and Italian companies, it would be disingenuous to claim that as a result these naval guns were Italian-made.

It's pretty much the same thing with these ships...

 

Well, it is absolutelly legit to claim that they were Spanish (or in that case Italian) made, is just that the bosses of those companies and the ones who helped with the designs, and provided help was Vickers.

So it is more a case of "Made by Spanish, but without Vickers' help could not have been done" just like Japanese battleship classes Fusō and Ise.

[Historynerd]

 

Well, it is absolutelly legit to claim that they were Spanish (or in that case Italian) made, is just that the bosses of those companies and the ones who helped with the designs, and provided help was Vickers.

So it is more a case of "Made by Spanish, but without Vickers' help could not have been done" just like Japanese battleship classes Fusō and Ise.

 

...Yeah, pretty much. Lacking a clearer classification, this one should work.

[Waroch]

@chamorro : interesting stuff, thanks for your work o7

 

I see that some cruisers are drawn with a catapult seaplane. Do you know if there were local designs? I know the Nationalists used some German-made seaplanes and that the Republicans were interested by some Romano's designs (though lacking the time to develop an operational aircraft). Which models could be available?

[Earl_of_Northesk]

@chamorro : interesting stuff, thanks for your work o7

 

I see that some cruisers are drawn with a catapult seaplane. Do you know if there were local designs? I know the Nationalists used some German-made seaplanes and that the Republicans were interested by some Romano's designs (though lacking the time to develop an operational aircraft). Which models could be available?

 

Mostly Italian designs if i recall correctly.

[chamorro]

@chamorro : interesting stuff, thanks for your work o7

 

I see that some cruisers are drawn with a catapult seaplane. Do you know if there were local designs? I know the Nationalists used some German-made seaplanes and that the Republicans were interested by some Romano's designs (though lacking the time to develop an operational aircraft). Which models could be available?

 

The only seaplanes capable of catapult-launching in service in Spain at the time of WWII, were the german Heinkel He-114 and the italian Romeo Ro-43. Spain showed some interest in acquiring some proper designs, but it never actually happened.

Since is Ansaldo the one providing the High Tier ships (except for the purchased ones), the Seaplanes would most likely be of italian origin, either an improved version of an italian design or a new design for the ships. However, we can "fake" a new accord between germany and Spain and give the Arado 196 to the ships. There is not really much information on the subject here, unfortunatelly.

[Benaguasil]

Chamorro i said that the 148 a for tier x because the stats if you compare her with the Churruca(gearing)  or Lepanto (fletcher) class  the 148 has best armament, more torpodes, more diplacement, best speed. In general best thet the other ones so put a destroyer in tier 9 that is best that the Gearing that is tier x it makes little sense, so for tier IX we could put de roger de lauria class that is a Spanish design.

 

[chamorro]

Chamorro i said that the 148 a for tier x because the stats if you compare her with the Churruca(gearing)  or Lepanto (fletcher) class  the 148 has best armament, more torpodes, more diplacement, best speed. In general best thet the other ones so put a destroyer in tier 9 that is best that the Gearing that is tier x it makes little sense, so for tier IX we could put de roger de lauria class that is a Spanish design.

 

Better speed, yes. Better main armament, yes. Higher displacement, irrelevant, but yes.

Now, better torpedoes? No, worse by far.

Not only the 148 has less torpedo tubes than the Gearing and the Fletcher (10 [Gearing and Fletcher] vs 8 [148]), but also it has only 4 launchers per side, which is by far, a worse torpedo configuration than anything even down to TV.

The Project 148, is NOT valid to be a TX ship, the guns are not good enough to compensate for the extremelly awfull torpedo loadout.

Project 148 is not better than the Gearing nor the Fletcher, because, as I said before, those 4x2x120mm cannot compensate the 2x2x533mm torpedo tubes per side.

 

Comming back to "Roger de Lauria" class, the Oquendo class as it was manufactured is too modern for the game. My only option to include the Oquendo class is the 1943 prototype configuration, but for that, I need to visit first the naval archives to find more info about the prototype. I already thought since the beginning the Oquendo(1943) as the TX, but I placed the US-bought ships as placeholders until I could find more information about the Oquendo.

[IsraeI]

 

Actually, Spain's naval power was still seen as considerable on a later date.

 

During the Virginius affair (a diplomatic crisis between the United States and Spain), a Spanish ironclad (wish I knew its name, but I found no sources detailing it) was in New York harbour; the US Navy, which had fell in a period of neglect and disrepair after the Civil War, admittedly didn't have anything that could stand up to her. In fact, an inquiry ended up making the startling discovery that even a naval war with a Latin American country would have seen the US as the weakest party.

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginius_Affair

 

you mean this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_ironclad_Arapiles

 

"Arapiles ran aground in early 1873 off the Venezuelan coast and was sent to Brooklyn, New York for repairs that lasted from May to January 1874. During the Virginius Affair later that year, a lighter sank, blocking the drydock gates in which Arapileswas being repaired as tensions rose between the United States and Spain."

 

i would welcome the idea of having the spanish navy in the game. the Canarias looks SEXY!

[Historynerd]

 

you mean this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_ironclad_Arapiles

 

"Arapiles ran aground in early 1873 off the Venezuelan coast and was sent to Brooklyn, New York for repairs that lasted from May to January 1874. During the Virginius Affair later that year, a lighter sank, blocking the drydock gates in which Arapileswas being repaired as tensions rose between the United States and Spain."

 

i would welcome the idea of having the spanish navy in the game. the Canarias looks SEXY!

 

Thank you! 

[Shiva]

Is there any more news about this ship tree proposal?

 

[tank276]

4 minutes ago, Shiva said:

Is there any more news about this ship tree proposal?

 

A thread that was dead for 3 years has arisen, so most likely no.

[robihr]

20 minutes ago, Shiva said:

Is there any more news about this ship tree proposal?

 

spain had ships?

think they will put it after russian BB and CV line.. first proper maritime nations have to have all their lines done, before minor nations

 

[Shiva]

The spanish version of this thread is still alive.

My spanish skills ain't so good, sadly.

[HaachamaShipping]

I'd bet on British DDs, CVs, French DDs, Italian BBs, CL/CAs and DDs to all come before there'll be any actual Spanish tree. At best you can hope they make a premium in the next few years of like the Canarias. I mean, Spain really isn't ranking high on the list of priorities, as long as the major seafaring nations are still not taken care of fully.

[robihr]

1 hour ago, Riselotte said:

I'd bet on British DDs, CVs, French DDs, Italian BBs, CL/CAs and DDs to all come before there'll be any actual Spanish tree. At best you can hope they make a premium in the next few years of like the Canarias. I mean, Spain really isn't ranking high on the list of priorities, as long as the major seafaring nations are still not taken care of fully.

think that spanish might come way before that.. just to loosen wallets from spanish players...