Are Submarines OP without homing torps??

[___V_E_N_O_M___]

What changes would it take for subs to be acceptable??

[_Keiban_]

it's not possible.

Source: Wargaming

 

[Procrastes]

22 hours ago, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

What changes would it take for subs to be acceptable??

 

I believe it can be done.

 

Given that submarines rely on "ambush and retreat-tactics", with next to no capabilities for handling themselves in an open battle with surface ships, they are, as a ship class, fundamentally unsuited to the form of arcade style conflict that form the game environment in World of Warships. Thus, they would probably never make the game better by being included. But they could quite easily be made less of an engine for toxicity than they are in their current form.

 

For this to happen, submariness would have to be made subject to effective counterplay equally with other ship classes.*

 

Suggestions for how to accomplish this have been too numerous to count over the past few years. Most of what's been said has been cheerfully ignored by Wargaming, whose agenda admittedly differs from that of most players. I won't even try to recapsulate what amounts to several years of forum posts from people who are far more knowledgeable of the game than I. But shall put forth a few thoughts, based mostly on gaming experiences of the past three weeks.

• Submarines should lose their balance-bending combination of long-range, quick-loading, homing torpedoes. Their torpedo armament should do a lot of damage when it hits, enough to make a patiently and well executed ambush worthwhile (see below), but should otherwise be more or less on par with that of in-game destroyers.
• Submarines should be detected by hydroacoustic search at the full range of the hydro. Their current quasi-invisibility to hydro would have to go.
• Submarines should be detected by radar not only while surfaced, but also at persicope depth.
• CV:s should be as vulnerable to submarine attack as other surface ships. No more leak-proofing, ever-lasting auto-repairs, no more hyper-efficient, auto-deployed depth charge drops.
• CV:s should be equipped with active plane squadrons carrying depth charges.
• The Airstrike depth charge consumable should be available at longer ranges, and ideally to more ships - including destroyers. The guiding principle should be that no ship in the game should be able to attack another player without exposing themsleves to being attacked in return.**
• We must get rid of the sonar spam. I don't much care how it's done, I just want it gone. It is a nauseating game feature.

The above points are not meant to be exclusive. I don't currently have enough experience of fighting with (or in) submarines to be able to offer a full, water-proof fix. But I know what I'm aiming for, namely that in order for submarines to be as functional as possible within the limits of this game, they should be designed as the ultimate high-risk, high-reward class. A well planned submarine ambush should be commensurately rewarded, but any slip-ups should be punished severely. As any who have played destroyers would know, such a play style can be both fun and rewarding. Submarines should in this way be kind of like destroyers, but with less of the scout and more of the assassin .They already have these characteristics in some measure, but without much challenge. They should offer truly challenging gameplay, not the soporific, slow motion underwater ballet that they currently bring to the table.

 

 

* Not counting CV:s, who are even less subject to effective counterplay than submarines (and who would also benefit from some equalizing treatment, by the way).

** Broadly speaking. I'm not talking about legitimate sneak attack tactics such as torping from an island ambush, or firing into or out of smoke cover.

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

What changes would it take for subs to be acceptable??

 

Subs are Acceptable like they are.

They are not Overpowered at all.

Actually in terms of Match Influence they are pretty Weak. And while on the Stronger side in terms of 1 on 1 Combat Power. They are far away from being the Strongest there. In General if anything they are too weak right now and would need a Buff to be Relevant.

 

Now for General Gameplay.

They aint Perfect. There is quite a few things I would Change.

 

-Generally giving much longer Divetime so the Sub can actually stay at Periscope Depth for much longer.

-Stronger Torpedoes that Hit Harder but which have much Longer Reload and which have much Shorter Range. Forcing the Submarine to Generally get much Closer to the Enemy. 

-Changing Homing Torps to actual Realistic Acoustic Homing Torps removing the whole Ping Bullcrab and instead make it so that these Torpedoes automaticly start Homing after a Safety Distance of 1-2km choosing the closest Target in front of them. Counterplay not being Damage Control but to Stop the Engine and Float out of the Way. As Acoustic Torpedoes Home based on Acoustic and thus lose Homing if the Enemy Ship Stops the Engine.

-Removal of Airstrike Depth Charges for Ships that do not have an Aircraft Slot and Change to the Airstrike Depth Charge to not call in Magic Planes but consist of the Plane on Your Ship Taking off and Dropping Depthcharges at the Location You Specified.

-Adding a New Consumable without Charge Limit to all DDs and Light Cruisers with Hull Mounted Depth Charges which works the same as the Surface Detection Ping of Subs just the other way around and thus Detects the Rough Location of Submerged Subs in 5km Radius every few Seconds.

 

 

 

But all of this is not Gonna Happen. And even if it did. The People Whining about Subs would never be Happy with anything.

To make the People that Whine about Subs Happy. Subs would need to be Removed, Placed in a Seperate Gamemode they would never Touch. Or be made so Weak that they end up just being Fodder and could just as well be Removed anyways.

Anything short of that will not Satisfy them and they will keep crying and find new Faults with Subs.

Meaning that they will keep Crying about how Subs are Overpowered and will never Stop.

 

[ZygZag]

Do not feed v_e_n_o_m_o_us troll...

[22cm]

1 hour ago, Procrastes said:

with next to no capabilities for handling themselves in an open battle with surface ships, they are, as a ship class, fundamentally unsuited to the form of arcade style conflict that form the game environment in World of Warships.

Actually, they could and did sink surface warships, but their biggest flaw was their speed: 8 kn submerged and 20 kn on surface , which meant that unless a warship was coming directly towards you, you had no possibility to maneuver to intercept it for a torpedo firing solution. Also warships had radar and hydro, so more defense against a sub attack.

 

 

[Yedwy]

3 hours ago, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

What changes would it take for subs to be acceptable??

Many suggestions have been given, all ignored, no need to waste time on writing more, WG is obviously happy with the griefing character of gameplay by the subs and CVs and have 0 intention of changing it...

[Andrewbassg]

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

But all of this is not Gonna Happen.

That's correct.

 

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

And even if it did. The People Whining about Subs would never be Happy with anything.

 To make the People that Whine about Subs Happy. Subs would need to be Removed, Placed in a Seperate Gamemode they would never Touch. Or be made so Weak that they end up just being Fodder and could just as well be Removed anyways.

Anything short of that will not Satisfy them and they will keep crying and find new Faults with Subs.

Meaning that they will keep Crying about how Subs are Overpowered and will never Stop

That's not. Before subs were released into randoms quite arguably T6 were balanced, T8 not and T10 was ciomplete B.S. Since then Wedgie piled up

 

buffs and buffs upon them

 

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

Subs are Acceptable like they are.

 They are not Overpowered at all.

 Actually in terms of Match Influence they are pretty Weak. And while on the Stronger side in terms of 1 on 1 Combat Power. They are far away from being the Strongest there. In General if anything they are too weak right now and would need a Buff to be Relevant.

 

And that's false. Subs are not weak by any stretch of imagination. People don't understand how play them and how to play with them. Subs are heavily team dependent and when adecvate support is given to them ....oh boy. But people don't like the  complete BS in which Wedgie turned them, hence won't support and play with them.. A combination of ships+sub on a flank played correctly is lethal.

 

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

-Generally giving much longer Divetime so the Sub can actually stay at Periscope Depth for much longer.

 

Only if depletion time would vary( increase)  with depth and subs would be detectable by radar at periscope depth.

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

 -Stronger Torpedoes that Hit Harder but which have much Longer Reload and which have much Shorter Range. Forcing the Submarine to Generally get much Closer to the Enemy. 

 

Actually..no. Homing torpedoes should be close range, defensive weapons.

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

...but to Stop the Engine and Float out of the Way

Except there is no such mechanic in the game, therefore is completely unrealistic to expect Wedgie to implement it.

[___V_E_N_O_M___]

7 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

 

 

 

 

That's correct.

 

That's not. Before subs were released into randoms quite arguably T6 were balanced, T8 not and T10 was ciomplete B.S. Since then Wedgie piled up

 

buffs and buffs upon them

 

And that's false. Subs are not weak by any stretch of imagination. People don't understand how play them and how to play with them. Subs are heavily team dependent and when adecvate support is given to them ....oh boy. But people don't like the  complete BS in which Wedgie turned them, hence won't support and play with them.. A combination of ships+sub on a flank played correctly is lethal.

 

Only if depletion time would vary( increase)  with depth and subs would be detectable by radar at periscope depth.

Actually..no. Homing torpedoes should be close range, defensive weapons.

Except there is no such mechanic in the game, therefore is completely unrealistic to expect Wedgie to implement it.

I 56 has 6km homing torps, but I'd don't use homing at all

[Procrastes]

49 minutes ago, 22cm said:

Actually, they could and did sink surface warships, but their biggest flaw was their speed: 8 kn submerged and 20 kn on surface , which meant that unless a warship was coming directly towards you, you had no possibility to maneuver to intercept it for a torpedo firing solution. Also warships had radar and hydro, so more defense against a sub attack.

All this is true.

 

I have been among the face-palmer crowd regarding the ludicrously un-historical submerged speeds that WoWs subs get up to. But in all honesty, they probably need those speeds in order to be at all playable in an arcade environment. Which is part of the problem, of course, but that debate ended long ago.

[Procrastes]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

Meaning that they will keep Crying about how Subs are Overpowered and will never Stop.

I'd hesitate to call subs overpowered, but I do think they are badly designed for this game. Which is a pity, since they could pretty easily be balanced to fit in better - as could carriers. But instead of going for nuanced, challenging gameplay for these two ship classes, WG went the other way and opted for artifical popularity boosts through the removal of effective counterplay. This is not only a  bad design choice when applied to a PvP game whose whole idea rests on the principle of play vs. counterplay, it is also a frankly insulting vote of no confidence for those CV and Sub players out there who do enjoy a challenge. If I'd been a CV/Sub main, I'd be pretty miffed; as it is, I'm merely ticked off.

 

[Yedwy]

47 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

I'd hesitate to call subs overpowered, but I do think they are badly designed for this game.

Exactly they are not overpowered as such they are broken by design which allows good players to utterly dominate in them and poor players to be utterly crushed making even more of an unstable steamroll enviroment in the game...

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

I 56 has 6km homing torps, but I'd don't use homing at all

 

Thats the thing tough.

 

I56 has HP to Duke some Hits.

I56 has 12.5km High Damage and High Speed Unguided Torps with Proper Single Torpedo Spread that You can Aim with.

And I56 has 6 of them Forward.

 

 

Now try Playing only Unguided Torps with U-190 where You got HP to Duke a Hit. Where Your Unguided Torps are Low Damage, Short Ranged and Abysmas Speed. And where You got the Torpedo Spread as if it was a 1x5 Launcher. :)

Best case You could use the Homing Torps without Ping. But their Damage is even more Pitiful and it basicly ends up like Your a BB that only has a Single Jean Bart Turret with a 1 Minute Reload lol.

[TycBrum]

5 hours ago, _Keiban_ said:

it's not possible.

Source: Wargaming

 

They should have stuck to the reasoning given here

[Captain_Lootbox]

I would make subs so that they could not be taken out of port.  Players can look at them but if they want to play them then they can play Cold Waters.

[Cuddly_Spider]

5 hours ago, _Keiban_ said:

it's not possible.

Source: Wargaming

 

That guy is not a game designer and doesn't work for WG in such a capacity.

 

You might as well quote anyone else on the forum.

[NewHorizons_1]

29 minutes ago, Cuddly_Spider said:

That guy is not a game designer and doesn't work for WG in such a capacity.

 

You might as well quote anyone else on the forum.

And how many forumites could quote the results of WG's own internal tests?

[_Keiban_]

Vor 23 Minuten, Cuddly_Spider sagte:

That guy is not a game designer and doesn't work for WG in such a capacity.

 

You might as well quote anyone else on the forum.

Are you like, intellectually challenged?

Notice the word "we" in his sentences? This isn't some random guy stating his opinion, it's a (former) WG employee talking directly ON BEHALF of the gamedesigners/devs.

[Cuddly_Spider]

1 minute ago, _Keiban_ said:

Are you like, intellectually challenged?

Notice the word "we" in his sentences? This isn't some random guy stating his opinion, it's a (former) WG employee talking directly ON BEHALF of the gamedesigners/devs.

 

That's Nicholas Moran. He's a published author of tank warfare and commentator on *modern tank warfare*.

 

 

He's not a game designer. The very fact that he is saying "subs don't work" and they've since showed up in the game working also appears to show credence to this fact, wouldn't you say?

 

 

[_Keiban_]

Vor 2 Minuten, Cuddly_Spider sagte:

 

That's Nicholas Moran. He's a published author of tank warfare and commentator on *modern tank warfare*.

 

He's not a game designer. The very fact that he is saying "subs don't work" and they've since showed up in the game working also appears to show credence to this fact, wouldn't you say?

https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/general-news/military-appreciation-employee-2/

This time we speak with Nicholas Moran, aka The_Chieftain, Director of Militaria Relations at Wargaming America.

 

As I said before, (former) WG employee talking on behalf of the devs.

Working in the sense of "are playable": Yes.

Working in the sense of fitting into the game, being fun to play and play against: No. And the latter was what he (and therefore the devs) were talking about.

[Cuddly_Spider]

1 minute ago, _Keiban_ said:

https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/general-news/military-appreciation-employee-2/

This time we speak with Nicholas Moran, aka The_Chieftain, Director of Militaria Relations at Wargaming America.

 

As I said before, (former) WG employee talking on behalf of the devs.

Working in the sense of "are playable": Yes.

Working in the sense of fitting into the game, being fun to play and play against: No. And the latter was what he (and therefore the devs) were talking about.

Irrelevant to what I said.

 

It was once fashionable to proclaim that the sun revolved around the earth. New discoveries supercede such quaint ideas.

 

Thus it is with subs in this game. What was once impossible is now not only possible, but has created a much better experience.

 

A wise man can change his mind, a fool never will.

 

 

[_Keiban_]

Vor 1 Minute, Cuddly_Spider sagte:

Thus it is with subs in this game. What was once impossible is now not only possible, but has created a much better experience.

Riiiight...

Must have somehow missed all the praises in the forums and ingame of what a great addition subs are...

[Andrewbassg]

2 hours ago, Cuddly_Spider said:

That guy is not a game designer and doesn't work for WG in such a capacity.

  

You might as well quote anyone else on the forum.

You know that clip is an excerpt from a series called Developer Diaries, right?

[Procrastes]

4 hours ago, Yedwy said:

Exactly they are not overpowered as such they are broken by design which allows good players to utterly dominate in them and poor players to be utterly crushed making even more of an unstable steamroll enviroment in the game...

My, oh my... this makes submarines in WoWs an even worse design than I'd previously thought.

Let's hope that the best players find subs just as boring to play as I do, then...?

[KHETTIFER]

3 hours ago, Cuddly_Spider said:

He's not a game designer.

 

 

Neither are WG in reality, they're a marketing/sales company with an attached art dept. that aquired a game engine and hired some engineers to cobble together some code. XD