[XIOX] Bollwerk Players 40 posts 1,420 battles Report post #101 Posted March 11 22 hours ago, MixuS said: So with subs already being better torp boats than torp dd's, why do they need homing torps on top of that? I'm willing to bet it's because of the ping mechanic. When they developed subs they came to the point where they noticed that torps have a quite long reload (faster for subs but still) and that subs have no other weapons. Shooting only once per minute or so seems boing for the average player so they thought "what can we do?"... Deck guns? Nah too much of a stretch. But then they came up with the pings. There is much pinging in sub movies, right? And subs could fire pings at a fast rate and so would have something to do all the time and would not have to wait a long time between torp salvos. And thus homing torps were born. And i guess that the reason why they will stay with us because they probably have no real idea what else to do with pings and they don't want players to get bored on subs. 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[WG] Seraphice WG Staff 1,664 posts 7,808 battles Report post #102 Posted March 13 Hey guys, First of all, I want to address that we are not actively staying away from such topics. Unfortunately, I was not able to be as active on the forum last week (and potentially coming weeks as well) as there is a lot of responsibilities that I have outside of the forum (mainly KotS is taking up that time right now). Moving onto the topic at hand, Alliance torpedoes are rather weak on their own, they are extremely slow and deal very little damage, and only 4 of them can be launched at once. The alpha strike potential of the submarine is rather low. Of course the strength of the submarine comes from the fast reload and good homing capabilities, making it possible to score decently reliable hits on enemy targets. However there are still some things to check out that can improve your ability to deal with them. I suggest checking out this post that can help you understand how to most efficiently dodge torpedoes https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/262261-how-to-dodge-homing-torpedoes/ and also to remind you that for alliance torpedoes, it is best to turn in, rather than turn out. Additionally, your damage control party will also help in negating this submarine's biggest strength. Fair seas captains! ~Sera 1 9 2 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Karkong_the_Impaler Players 2,983 posts Report post #103 Posted March 13 44 minutes ago, Seraphice said: Additionally, your damage control party will also help in negating this submarine's biggest strength. Remind me again - how long does a DDs repair party last? And how is "turning in" an improvement of the DDs situation, getting spotted even longer so everyone can chew at him - And why torps following someone home into their butt instead of stopping to track at some point? Why is it that the community thinks CVs and everyone at WG thinks DDs instead?! Also, U4501 when? I want a sub specifically designed to murder CVs please. 8 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[I-J-N] Karasu_Browarszky [I-J-N] Players 13,025 posts Report post #104 Posted March 13 On 3/11/2023 at 4:00 PM, Bollwerk said: I'm willing to bet it's because of the ping mechanic. When they developed subs they came to the point where they noticed that torps have a quite long reload (faster for subs but still) and that subs have no other weapons. Shooting only once per minute or so seems boing for the average player so they thought "what can we do?"... Deck guns? Nah too much of a stretch. But then they came up with the pings. There is much pinging in sub movies, right? And subs could fire pings at a fast rate and so would have something to do all the time and would not have to wait a long time between torp salvos. And thus homing torps were born. And i guess that the reason why they will stay with us because they probably have no real idea what else to do with pings and they don't want players to get bored on subs. Don't know about those sub movies, but I'd hazard to bet that a sub captain who decides to ping with active sonar in enemy proximacy graduated at the bottom of his class. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[WG] Seraphice WG Staff 1,664 posts 7,808 battles Report post #105 Posted March 14 15 hours ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said: Remind me again - how long does a DDs repair party last? it lasts for a short duration, but if utilized correctly can definitely be used to negate the homing and dodge the torpedoes. Important also is the cooldown of the consumable at 40 seconds. 15 hours ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said: Why is it that the community thinks CVs and everyone at WG thinks DDs instead?! It is hardly true that "everyone at wargaming thinks F DDs" and I would argue even in the current state DDs are still plenty powerful and still retain some of the highest game impact. Fair seas! 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[L-DI] coolrunings_99 Players 129 posts 14,939 battles Report post #106 Posted March 14 I don’t think that anyone at wg could, would or should say ‘F any ship class’. Having said that, DDs are still what DDs are, but in a game where there are no suckmarines, cause God forbid there is a red sub that knows how to, well do subthings, Your DeeDeeing is gonna be very limited until its dead, if You re in luck that You both chose the same place to contest. Similar could be said on CVs, but generally You see them buzzards, they hurt but not as much as the good sub can ruin Your match. Looking on the bright side, I feel like the ‘Unsinkable’ achievement looks semi doable now, with some help from out underwater friends😁😉 Having witnessed match queues lately dominated by subs, I gather they re a success for wg, which is great for the game in general. Cynicism that all is well on the Western front though is not, since wg might also consider the fact that steamrolls are a bigger threat to games well being to which suckmarines contribute greatly- why not increase the number of surface ships slots? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Panocek Players 13,176 posts 13,617 battles Report post #107 Posted March 14 1 hour ago, Seraphice said: It is hardly true that "everyone at wargaming thinks F DDs" and I would argue even in the current state DDs are still plenty powerful and still retain some of the highest game impact. So, you indirectly confirm WG needs to "F DDs" some more, if they retain highest game impact despite all the funny stuff added to the game meant to directly or indirectly tone them down. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[WG] Seraphice WG Staff 1,664 posts 7,808 battles Report post #108 Posted March 14 16 minutes ago, Panocek said: So, you indirectly confirm WG needs to "F DDs" some more, if they retain highest game impact despite all the funny stuff added to the game meant to directly or indirectly tone them down. No, that is not what I am saying. While destroyers have relatively high game impact overall due to the nature of a destroyer's role, there is no need to nerf the class as a whole right now. Fair seas! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Karkong_the_Impaler Players 2,983 posts Report post #109 Posted March 14 41 minutes ago, Seraphice said: [...] there is no need to nerf the class as a whole right now. See, that's what we all are saying. But suddenly - submersible scum?! Now even with laser guided missiles! In addition to atrocious supershits with FUn button and of course CVs, but I disgress... Also, why didn't you reply to what basically amounts to lazy programming - That the torps are guided right into your rear when running away? Or the fact that "turning in" is usually not the preferable choice for a spotted DD under fire but now he gets forced to? That's about as much fun as pointing your bow towards AP rocket planes and getting deleted by the sheer volume of long range BBs in a CL... Man, you came with the excuse that DDs have so many things to do, so you wouldn't want to burden them with ASW duties - with the result that there is an entire lack of healthy respect. And the one class which needed a counter gets nuclear tipped laser guided and entirely automated ASW. And you wonder why we think DDs are getting ed? 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[L-DI] coolrunings_99 Players 129 posts 14,939 battles Report post #110 Posted March 14 okay here s a small tweak of one very communist and revolutionary thing to do, that being CV grade ASW for all ship classes..the tweak being CV grade ASW for DDs alone which would make, DDs errm..great, again?😉 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[POILU] Sink_Different Players 348 posts 23,777 battles Report post #111 Posted March 14 On 3/8/2023 at 10:09 PM, ClappingLollies said: This^^ But like 2-3 years ago. Good advices never grow old. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[LOKTR] Viridem Players 381 posts 13,272 battles Report post #112 Posted March 14 On 3/13/2023 at 5:48 PM, Seraphice said: Moving onto the topic at hand, Alliance torpedoes are rather weak on their own, they are extremely slow and deal very little damage, and only 4 of them can be launched at once. The alpha strike potential of the submarine is rather low. Of course the strength of the submarine comes from the fast reload and good homing capabilities, making it possible to score decently reliable hits on enemy targets. However there are still some things to check out that can improve your ability to deal with them. I suggest checking out this post that can help you understand how to most efficiently dodge torpedoes https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/262261-how-to-dodge-homing-torpedoes/ and also to remind you that for alliance torpedoes, it is best to turn in, rather than turn out. Additionally, your damage control party will also help in negating this submarine's biggest strength. The ship can launch six torpedoes at once, not four, as we can see in the very first post. Even with four, at 5700 base alpha, it's enough to one shot most DDs this submarine will encounter. Remember, with torpedo aiming master, a double ping increases the damage by 15%, making things even worse, as only three torpedoes will be enough against most DDs. Alliance can outspot the majority of DDs it will encounter when surfaced, all of them when at periscope depth. Submarines can also see ships when submerged thanks to their hydrophone, without the detected ships being aware of it for some reason. When a DD is approaching a submarine, there's a good chance the DD gets shot at by the opposing team, gets pinged by the submarine and has to dodge the torpedoes (using its DCP in the process) before even spotting the submarine. Spotting the submarine isn't even guarateed, as it can dive below periscope depth. It has good enough maneuvrability to escape your depth charges, too. It can of course get back up to periscope depth and attack you using its rear-mounted torpedoes and ping you if you manage to sail above him and live. Good luck getting rid of the ping again, as the submarine reload faster than your DCP does. It can also surface very quickly and one shot you from very close range, thanks to a short arming distance on the torpedoes, something some ships would appreciate having (like many DDs, or notably the recent Japanese CLs, among many others). This isn't that hard to do, contrary to what some people have suggested. It can just ram you, too. Thanks to the special saturation they get, there's a good chance it kills you and lives. Everything I just described can be achieved by almost every single submarine against a DD. There's a good number of players, very good players with lots of experience, bringing your attention to these issues. Yet you release a new submarine that is even better at countering DDs thanks to their incredible homing capacity. With all of this in mind, telling us to basically "just dodge" when we have a video showing us how difficult it is to dodge these torpedoes in a DD is quite tone deaf and in a bad taste, if not reflecting poorly on the considerations WG's representatives give the playerbase, as well as on their mastery of the game. And your other defense? DDs still have a high game impact? That is not what this is about, it's about the interaction between DD and submarine feeling extremely frustrating and unfair. This right there is not fun. Submarines have special mechanics for stealth, ship detection, main armament, damage and movement. They do not have to answer to getting detected and shot at like other ships have to, they do not have to answer to hydro and radar. They can go stealth whenever they want for very long stretches of time. The main way to damage them is using a special weapon that is given unevenly to ships (some have depth charges, some have planes, some have nothing. Planes have variable range and potential alpha). These weapons have to be manually aimed and can sometimes take a long time to sink a submarine even when correctly used. At the opposite, surface ships have to answer to these torpedoes like any other torpedo. No special saturation mechanic, they get detected the same way, flooding works the same. The submarine doesn't have to accomodate for anything. Not only that, but they have access to homing torpedoes, they're given an additional clutch. Add insult to injury, many of them can spot you and attack you from outside the range of your ASW planes. As far as I know, only submarines can attack you from outside of your weapons' range while undetected, with the exception of some very long-range torpedoes that have questionable impact (and CVs, but that's another can of worms). While it can take a long time to sink a submarine with the correct use of your ASW, a submarine can always sink you very quickly, either thanks to very high alpha strike, or by very fast reload, when not both. Things are very asymetrical, feel unfair and are not fun to deal with. Your answer? "Dodge better" and "Muh game impact". Get a grip. 13 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[VPM] OldSchoolFrankie [VPM] Players 989 posts 20,632 battles Report post #113 Posted March 14 7 hours ago, Seraphice said: ..there is no need to nerf the class as a whole right now. I see how you solved the problem. Good job! Maybe we should take that as an example. 2 13 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[K3RLS] MarChil Players 509 posts 13,275 battles Report post #114 Posted March 14 16 minutes ago, Viridem said: The ship 16 minutes ago, Viridem said: Get a grip. Well formulated. Bravo. But you forget that gameplay is not something WG has an awfull lot of interest in.(I doubt they have more then a couple of interns working on that as a side project) New ships every patch is taking up the resources, because that what this collector's program is all about. Gameplay is just a side effect they might get to someday. Remember that for subs and CV the same rule counts: As long as the one playing it is having fun, the one opposing you is not relevant. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[GLAWS] Captain_Lootbox Players 335 posts 6,499 battles Report post #115 Posted March 14 I think subs are a great introduction to the game and the years of tweaking that WG has done to them has made them enjoyable to play with and against. I'm glad they put in so much work into the class or it wouldnt be what it is now. 1 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[BREW] Bland_42 Players 751 posts 10,864 battles Report post #116 Posted March 14 55 minuti fa, Captain_Lootbox ha scritto: I think ... The incipit is correct. It's your opinion. Not everyone think the same. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[I-J-N] Karasu_Browarszky [I-J-N] Players 13,025 posts Report post #117 Posted March 14 1 hour ago, Captain_Lootbox said: I think subs are a great introduction to the game and the years of tweaking that WG has done to them has made them enjoyable to play with and against. I'm glad they put in so much work into the class or it wouldnt be what it is now. Sarcasm? Not sarcasm? Help! 1 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[NWP] 159Hunter Players 4,528 posts Report post #118 Posted March 15 23 hours ago, Seraphice said: it lasts for a short duration, but if utilized correctly can definitely be used to negate the homing and dodge the torpedoes. Important also is the cooldown of the consumable at 40 seconds. That would be true if subs couldn't keep spamming their ping. But they can, so even if you take of ONE ping just to avoid the homing torps, your DC will be on CD when the next one comes. And ofc, that is the hypothetical situation where you are spotted by a CV and nobody is shooting you. If that were to happen your DC is even more needed. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[POILU] Sink_Different Players 348 posts 23,777 battles Report post #119 Posted March 15 I suppose the next best thing from WG will air-dropped homing torpedoes for CVs. It's not a If but a When. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[GURKA] Captain_Breeze Players 734 posts 32,117 battles Report post #120 Posted March 15 I just find it interesting that whilst playing on the flank with 3 x BB's, 2 x cruisers we were pushed from that flank by one noob sub player (looked up stats). He stayed out of our drop zone and seeing as I was in a light cruiser had not flying drops. The game play is very much changed in a sub game, and not in a good way. Anyone commenting that this is because I'm anti sub, then I counter that by stating that you are pro sub player loving WG for all the love you are getting these days. Please buff subs more WG, making the game great. 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CHATS] Silence_CN Players 1,257 posts 17,048 battles Report post #121 Posted March 15 Il y a 2 heures, Captain_Breeze a dit : making the game great Unfortunately, WG does not want the game to be great again. WG only wants profit to be greater. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[R7S] lovelacebeer Players 4,158 posts 25,223 battles Report post #122 Posted March 15 Time to give CVs their historically accurate homing anti submarine torpedos. 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[SM0KE] Verblonde Players 9,787 posts 20,656 battles Report post #123 Posted March 15 On 3/13/2023 at 12:48 PM, Seraphice said: your damage control party will also help in negating this submarine's biggest strength. On 3/14/2023 at 5:06 AM, Seraphice said: it lasts for a short duration, but if utilized correctly can definitely be used to negate the homing and dodge the torpedoes. Important also is the cooldown of the consumable at 40 seconds. No matter how many times you spout this stuff, it will not become any less nonsense. Homing torpedoes in conjunction with DCP ping mitigation are *the* key reason why submarines ruin any PvP mode in which they appear. (You can argue about the spotting thing, but - for me - pings/DCP are the key reason why I no longer play any PvP mode that includes submarines.) 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[GLAWS] Captain_Lootbox Players 335 posts 6,499 battles Report post #124 Posted March 15 22 hours ago, Karasu_Browarszky said: Sarcasm? Not sarcasm? Help! I couldnt do that to you 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[EUTF] Nauseica Players 628 posts 10,955 battles Report post #125 Posted March 16 On 3/14/2023 at 8:27 PM, Viridem said: Awesome wall of text critically hitting Seraphice for 10d8 dmg +2d8 fire dmg and has to roll charisma saving throw to not be incapacitated If you been near me il share my chocolate cookie or my ice cream and that a big treatment from me !!! 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
