Japanese CLs - do you EVER switch to AP?

[GulvkluderGuld]

Currently just started grinding the tier 9 Takashi. 

 

AP seems underwhelming to say the least.

HE volleys do consistently more damage than AP on a similar target since I've yet to score a citadel even on flat broadside CLs. Shimantos, Neptunes, Edinbourghs, Omonos, clevelands - it doesn't matter.

I'm forced to the conclusion WG added AP only as a bait trap since its 100% always better to fire HE.

[lafeel]

That'd assume there's a point in playing this line in the first place..

[Itwastuesday]

Rarely something is so close, but theoretically yes. 

[Stockensprotz]

Found AP not to be worth it. Played without IFHE and with, kept it afterwards. Does not seem to do more damage but at least the constant shatters do not drive you mad.

 

I find this line quite underwhelming. A lot of work dodging and shooting for very little reward in gun damage. Had one match where i had about 190 Pens with 35k damage when i was oneshotted by a Kremlin. And that was not even directly at the start of the match but after 10min of painful dodging. You do the maths on the damage per shell. Its like the guns are just there to deter DDs but even there they do too little damage and fly to slow to be able to really punish them when they are spotted. 

 

Even when an enemy is low health the low damage with the long reload means it still takes ages to get them down. The supposed good AA just tickles the CVs you are most likely to meet (Malta, Nakhimov, Super-CVs), Subs have fun with you because they actually outmaneuver you und you do not get ASW-planes until T10.

 

And even the torps are not that good as they seem to be easily dodged. They just look good in the range/damage department but slow and easily spotted makes them quite useless in reality. 

 

I love the other jap. line but this one i can not get used to. Currently grinding the T9, its an extra pain with T9 matchmaker. Will probably not touch the line again after that because it is unenjoyable and offers nothing that other ships do not do (much) better. Maybe Unicums can make it work - but then, why would they bother when they are even more effective in actually good ships.

[tocqueville8]

Still trying to wrap my head around the Yodo, but my answer is "occasionally":

• I did a 1v1 against a Zao at the end of a steamroll win, and yes I switched to AP as he showed side to drop torps: I got two citadels
• given I don't run IFHE, broadside BBs with 32 mm upper belts, like Yamato or French/British, can take good damge from AP 

[GulvkluderGuld]

58 minutes ago, lafeel said:

That'd assume there's a point in playing this line in the first place..

Get the tier 10 for yearly SC and completionism? That's my reason anyhow. As a line it's like a worse version of the CA line.

 

32 minutes ago, Stockensprotz said:

Found AP not to be worth it. Played without IFHE and with, kept it afterwards. Does not seem to do more damage but at least the constant shatters do not drive you mad.

 

I find this line quite underwhelming. A lot of work dodging and shooting for very little reward in gun damage. Had one match where i had about 190 Pens with 35k damage when i was oneshotted by a Kremlin. And that was not even directly at the start of the match but after 10min of painful dodging. You do the maths on the damage per shell. Its like the guns are just there to deter DDs but even there they do too little damage and fly to slow to be able to really punish them when they are spotted. 

 

Even when an enemy is low health the low damage with the long reload means it still takes ages to get them down. The supposed good AA just tickles the CVs you are most likely to meet (Malta, Nakhimov, Super-CVs), Subs have fun with you because they actually outmaneuver you und you do not get ASW-planes until T10.

 

And even the torps are not that good as they seem to be easily dodged. They just look good in the range/damage department but slow and easily spotted makes them quite useless in reality. 

 

I love the other jap. line but this one i can not get used to. Currently grinding the T9, its an extra pain with T9 matchmaker. Will probably not touch the line again after that because it is unenjoyable and offers nothing that other ships do not do (much) better. Maybe Unicums can make it work - but then, why would they bother when they are even more effective in actually good ships.

Shimanto wasn't so bad in ranked where it's always top tier. Had quite a few 100k+ games playing it like i would play the CAs.

I specced mine for torps and land a few each game,  decent fire chance and ambush potential on DDs makes it a decent glasscannon.

It would be playable even uptiered if not for the incredibly slow shells and lack of gun range.

Good AA huh? Thats a good joke. 

 

Was expecting the tier 9 to be tough due to MM. Currently trying to decide if I should just FXP it to get a port queen Yodo. 

As it is I get 100k games when top tier and < 20k when bottom tier since there is 100% always CVs and 5 BBs targeting the CL first.

 

20 minutes ago, tocqueville8 said:

• I did a 1v1 against a Zao at the end of a steamroll win, and yes I switched to AP as he showed side to drop torps: I got two citadels
• given I don't run IFHE, broadside BBs with 32 mm upper belts, like Yamato or French/British, can take good damge from AP 

[ColonelPete]

Yes, but rarely.

[lafeel]

36 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Get the tier 10 for yearly SC and completionism? That's my reason anyhow. As a line it's like a worse version of the CA line.

 

Fair enough, but I wouldn't expect much enjoyment, as there seems none to be had in this line in it's present state.

[Redcap375]

1 hour ago, Stockensprotz said:

I find this line quite underwhelming.

 

Yet there are in few in this forum who think they are great.

 

yeah, I know.

[Verblonde]

Occasionally in Coop, if something suitable presents broadside (and I have a 'citadels' mission in play, especially), but that's about it...

[Lootboxer]

I citadeled Stalin once but from very close (below 3 km).

[lafeel]

11 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

Occasionally in Coop, if something suitable presents broadside (and I have a 'citadels' mission in play, especially), but that's about it...

Pretty good for farming citadels. But as *targets* not as the shooters.

[Verblonde]

3 hours ago, lafeel said:

Pretty good for farming citadels. But as *targets* not as the shooters.

Harsh, but fair...!

[MementoMori_6030]

I only have Yagahi, and the only time I use her guns at all is when I encounter a DD at a very close range. 

[doerhoff_damian]

Light Cruiser AP does not have the best penetration. So you want to use it against flat broadside cruisers at below 7 Kilometers.

But you should be able to citasel lightly armored Cruisers like a Shorsch or an Atlanta at medium Range.

Keep in Mind that the citadel armor of cruisers increases. 

So Guns that can deal with the 50 mm of Tier 5 Cruisers or the 70-75 mm of many Tier 6 and some Tier 7 Cruisers might not be as effective against the 127 mm and 152mm Citadell Armor of high Tier Cruisers.

I mean there is a Reason why the old Tier 6 Cleveland could show Broadside to so many Cruisers

Heavy Cruiser AP on the other Hand is effective at much greater distance but you will have less DPM

 

WoWS Fitting Tool (wowsft.com)

[Viridem]

Got a dev strike against an Edinburgh with an AP salvo from Shimanto, in ranked, at brawling distance.

Looking at other cruisers' AP shells of similar size at this tier, their balistics and pen values are relatively close.

(Except the Russian's, of course).

 

It's just that they don't have improved pen angles, or short fuse time, or even good damage...

 

Unless you're almost certain to get citadels, it's not worth risking overpens, shatters, bounces and potentially missing on a fire. Not for that little additional damage.

(I suppose you could use them to damage an unsaturated mid-section of a BB that is too thick for HE. I gave up when I realised I'd have to learn exactly where to shoot each BB, and which ones have sides too thick to even pen...).

 

The same applies to the 152mm guns.

 

The 155mm guns actually have good damage on their AP. It's a rare sight, but Mogami shooting AP is a viable strategy.

[SnuSnu_RIP]

Of course I do - the AP works very good against broadside cruisers, incl. citadels. 

 

[invicta2012]

12 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

AP seems underwhelming to say the least.

HE volleys do consistently more damage than AP on a similar target since I've yet to score a citadel even on flat broadside CLs. Shimantos, Neptunes, Edinbourghs, Omonos, clevelands - it doesn't matter.

You'll not get much value from AP unless you're below 9km in any of the 150mm ships, unless your target is *very* lightly armoured and not at all angled. In any case, these aren't high damage shells so a good HE volley is generally a better bet.

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

2 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

You'll not get much value from AP unless you're below 9km in any of the 150mm ships, unless your target is *very* lightly armoured and not at all angled. In any case, these aren't high damage shells so a good HE volley is generally a better bet.

Broadside targets to the superstructure isn't so bad - managing to hit at these distances is more of a skill issue. And HE only gets better because whether you penetrate or not, you can still start a fire.

[Schelfie]

I'm starting to love the Shimanto. She really can be a beast in the right circumstances.

 

But I only fire HE. AP is neglectible for the Japanese CL Line + with HE there's the chance for extra fire damage as well as the direct hit...

[NewHorizons_1]

17 minutes ago, Schelfie said:

I'm starting to love the Shimanto. She really can be a beast in the right circumstances.

 

But I only fire HE. AP is neglectible for the Japanese CL Line + with HE there's the chance for extra fire damage as well as the direct hit...

 

I used their AP. It's quite effective against broadside cruisers at the close/medium ranges that you get in co-op.

Same goes for most CLs - I used AP on Cleveland this morning to take (upto 10k) chunks out of the upper belt of a Lion (not Lyon).

I've even used AP (at close ranges) in super-light CLs like Dido, Atlanta & Tokachi.

PvP modes will be different though, as the ranges are typically longer and AP penetration will reduce quite markedly.

Plus, the matches will be longer and setting fires with HE will be more productive (or should that be destructive?)

[lafeel]

15 hours ago, Verblonde said:

Harsh, but fair...!

Bad agility, and armor too weak to reliably bounce most stuff thrown their way while just thick enough to arm everything shot their way.

 

Enough said really.

[Ijime_Dame_Zettai]

no.