Musashi: AP has higher range than HE?

[morti271]

Hey guys,

 

so I just noticed that the max range of the Musashi (Range mod and active spotting plane) is 36.9km for AP shells (26.6 seconds shell travel time), but only 32.5 km for HE  shells (31.8 seconds shell travel time).
The range shown on the mini map is the same, but the guns apparently can't elevate high enough to reach those 36.9km range with the extreme shell travel times of HE.

So is this intentional or was the game just not designed for such ranges and starts to bug out?

Not that it really matters, but i'd still like to know why this happens.
 

Regards

morti

[KillStealBoss]

Your minimap range indicator did show that it wasn't on max range when you had HE, that's bizarre. I'll have to check it out myself. Might be some bug, who knows. 

[Karasu_Browarszky]

I don't have the range module, both types showed up on the crosshair as 31.84 km without it with the spotter plane up. Apparently it is the range module if there is a bug.

[KillStealBoss]

Wow it's true. I checked it out and it's really a thing. Guns can't elevate.... No matter how I try. 

I'll see if it's also on Shiki 

[KillStealBoss]

No such issue on Shikishima

[Commander_Cornflakes]

The HE shells of Musashi have worse ballistics than the AP shells, so this should be the physical range limit for them.

 

There are other ships where the same happens, and the maximum firing range ingame is lower than the calculated range with full range build, for example New York.

 

Now please remove that range mod from Musashi

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Perhaps the HE ammunition is intended for AA?

[KillStealBoss]

On Yamato same as on Musashi...

[nerderklaus]

2 hours ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

The HE shells of Musashi have worse ballistics than the AP shells, so this should be the physical range limit for them.

 

There are other ships where the same happens, and the maximum firing range ingame is lower than the calculated range with full range build, for example New York.

 

Now please remove that range mod from Musashi

Are you aware of the fact that misleading information about a product justifies 100% refunds in many countries?

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

Basically every ship that has a spread of flight times has a different drag coefficient

 

 

 

Check the rightmost Column.

https://shiptool.st/filter?g=TP&ty=ABCDS&n=ABFGHIJRSUVWZ&tn=1&tx=11&c=top&p=mb&rm=12&os=mb&op=Flight_time&o=asc

 

This is by the way one of the reasons I loathe shooting HE with the Yamatos, my aim - especially at small, pesky DDs - is always a little bit off.

 

 

[asalonen]

14 hours ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said:

Basically every ship that has a spread of flight times has a different drag coefficient.

As the author of shiptool.st, a word on this. The Japanese battleships are the one line in the game that have hugely different ballistics for AP and HE. My users have reported this as a bug to me a few times...

 

The ballistic model used by the game is really quite accurate, accounting for all the primary forces that are in play. The shells have a muzzle velocity, weight, diameter and a drag coefficient. The game even accounts for the atmosphere getting thinner and colder as the shells climb higher -- Musashi HE shells climb to almost 10 km when fired to max range. This could well be the highest trajectory in the game. 

 

The only part of the ballistic model that is unrealistic is the flight time, as the shells are sped up by a constant factor of 2.75. When you combine this with the fact that the ships are scaled up, we can actually get some hits with a reasonable lead...

 

For many shells, like I believe the AP shells on the Japanese battleships, the shell parameters in the game are realistic. Musashi can theoretically lob an AP shell to beyond 40 km, like it could in real life. However, in the game the shooting range is limited by targeting parameters (artillery max range + fire control system and its modification + spotter plane). This is the case for the vast majority of ships and shells in the game.

 

But Musashi HE shells have a seriously gimped drag coefficient of 0.543, as opposed to 0.292 for the AP shells. I don't know if this is in any way realistic, or if this is just something done in the early days of the game to differentiate Japanese battleships from the Americans. But in any case, Musashi's HE shells just cannot fly any further than 32.5 km. Maximum firing range is achieved with a gun elevation of about 45 degrees, and once you're all the way there that's all you're going to get.

Edit: As a fun little thing, you can try targeting at 30 kilometers with Yamato or Musashi, and then switch the shell type. When you switch to HE, you can see and hear the guns being elevated about 10 degrees higher. And vice versa.

[MementoMori_6030]

At least the HE splash damage gives you a few more metres of range. 

[Cuddly_Spider]

3 hours ago, asalonen said:

As the author of shiptool.st, a word on this. The Japanese battleships are the one line in the game that have hugely different ballistics for AP and HE. My users have reported this as a bug to me a few times...

 

The ballistic model used by the game is really quite accurate, accounting for all the primary forces that are in play. The shells have a muzzle velocity, weight, diameter and a drag coefficient. The game even accounts for the atmosphere getting thinner and colder as the shells climb higher -- Musashi HE shells climb to 5+ km when fired to max range. This could well be the highest trajectory in the game. 

 

The only part of the ballistic model that is unrealistic is the flight time, as the shells are sped up by a constant factor of 2.75. When you combine this with the fact that the ships are scaled up, we can actually get some hits with a reasonable lead...

 

For many shells, like I believe the AP shells on the Japanese battleships, the shell parameters in the game are realistic. Musashi can theoretically lob an AP shell to beyond 40 km, like it could in real life. However, in the game the shooting range is limited by targeting parameters (artillery max range + fire control system and its modification + spotter plane). This is the case for the vast majority of ships and shells in the game.

 

But Musashi HE shells have a seriously gimped drag coefficient of 0.543, as opposed to 0.292 for the AP shells. I don't know if this is in any way realistic, or if this is just something done in the early days of the game to differentiate Japanese battleships from the Americans. But in any case, Musashi's HE shells just cannot fly any further than 32.5 km. Maximum firing range is achieved with a gun elevation of about 45 degrees, and once you're all the way there that's all you're going to get.

Edit: As a fun little thing, you can try targeting at 30 kilometers with Yamato or Musashi, and then switch the shell type. When you switch to HE, you can see and hear the guns being elevated about 10 degrees higher. And vice versa.

That's actually really impressive.

 

Do storms and cyclones affect the ballistic model as well?

[Karasu_Browarszky]

4 hours ago, asalonen said:

As the author of shiptool.st, a word on this. The Japanese battleships are the one line in the game that have hugely different ballistics for AP and HE. My users have reported this as a bug to me a few times...

 

The ballistic model used by the game is really quite accurate, accounting for all the primary forces that are in play. The shells have a muzzle velocity, weight, diameter and a drag coefficient. The game even accounts for the atmosphere getting thinner and colder as the shells climb higher -- Musashi HE shells climb to 5+ km when fired to max range. This could well be the highest trajectory in the game. 

 

The only part of the ballistic model that is unrealistic is the flight time, as the shells are sped up by a constant factor of 2.75. When you combine this with the fact that the ships are scaled up, we can actually get some hits with a reasonable lead...

 

For many shells, like I believe the AP shells on the Japanese battleships, the shell parameters in the game are realistic. Musashi can theoretically lob an AP shell to beyond 40 km, like it could in real life. However, in the game the shooting range is limited by targeting parameters (artillery max range + fire control system and its modification + spotter plane). This is the case for the vast majority of ships and shells in the game.

 

But Musashi HE shells have a seriously gimped drag coefficient of 0.543, as opposed to 0.292 for the AP shells. I don't know if this is in any way realistic, or if this is just something done in the early days of the game to differentiate Japanese battleships from the Americans. But in any case, Musashi's HE shells just cannot fly any further than 32.5 km. Maximum firing range is achieved with a gun elevation of about 45 degrees, and once you're all the way there that's all you're going to get.

Edit: As a fun little thing, you can try targeting at 30 kilometers with Yamato or Musashi, and then switch the shell type. When you switch to HE, you can see and hear the guns being elevated about 10 degrees higher. And vice versa.

 

Could they be modeled after the type 3 'sanshiki' shells?

[asalonen]

4 hours ago, Cuddly_Spider said:

Do storms and cyclones affect the ballistic model as well?

I don't know this as a fact, but I THINK only in the sense that storms increase your dispersion.

[nerderklaus]

2 hours ago, asalonen said:

I don't know this as a fact, but I THINK only in the sense that storms increase your dispersion.

I think the official claim is that it only effects visibility and dispersion. Does someone know whether this was controlled for hidden stats?

[Hugh_Ruka]

21 hours ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

The HE shells of Musashi have worse ballistics than the AP shells, so this should be the physical range limit for them.

 

There are other ships where the same happens, and the maximum firing range ingame is lower than the calculated range with full range build, for example New York.

 

Now please remove that range mod from Musashi

Are you aware that this is nowhere specified in the game interface ? There is only ONE artillery range ever displayed. So either add the information or correct the range so it matches. Until then you are misleading customers with a wrong product description.

[DDG_121]

WOWS keeps surprising me. I liked this thing right here. Something this realistic in an arcady game.

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

46 minutes ago, Zimbiye said:

WOWS keeps surprising me. I liked this thing right here. Something this realistic in an arcady game.

And then Forrest Dump and it's ilk with fantasy air drag values.

 

@asalonen appreciate the work.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

4 hours ago, Zimbiye said:

WOWS keeps surprising me. I liked this thing right here. Something this realistic in an arcady game.

 

My guess is that as the Japanese BB's are one of the very first lines in the game, they had different aspirations back then. Sadly we've all seen what's come afterwards.

[MixuS]

Bit off topic, but I've always found it hilarious that when you shoot a target at 20km away with shells that reportedly leave your barrels at 800m/s, shells still reach the target under 20s. They must have some rocket boosters they activate mid flight.

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

1 hour ago, MixuS said:

Bit off topic, but I've always found it hilarious that when you shoot a target at 20km away with shells that reportedly leave your barrels at 800m/s, shells still reach the target under 20s. They must have some rocket boosters they activate mid flight.

You do realize that BBs don't reload inside of 30 seconds, right? The whole game is sped up by a factor. I remember reading a value of 2,7 somewhere....

[BruceRKF]

11 minutes ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said:

You do realize that BBs don't reload inside of 30 seconds, right? The whole game is sped up by a factor. I remember reading a value of 2,7 somewhere....

The whole game is sped up and scaled up, you are right about that, but your example with BB reload is just wrong. Two rounds per minute was pretty normal, some could reload even faster. In fact, gun reload is one the few things in the game that is at least close to historical stats in most cases.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

24 minutes ago, BruceRKF said:

The whole game is sped up and scaled up, you are right about that, but your example with BB reload is just wrong. Two rounds per minute was pretty normal, some could reload even faster. In fact, gun reload is one the few things in the game that is at least close to historical stats in most cases.

 

Hmm.. I remember the reload time, at least for the Yamato guns being around 1½ minutes or so.

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

18 minutes ago, Karasu_Browarszky said:

Hmm.. I remember the reload time, at least for the Yamato guns being around 1½ minutes or so.

He's right, it's 1-1.5 shots a minute. I checked.