4 Battles on Hermes, 4 losses. From now it's like this...

[Andrewbassg]

9 minutes ago, lup3s said:

 

While we have a similar opinion, this I don't agree with. Anyone can learn / test different tactics with different ships, trying to find the optimal route for a specific ship in a specific Operation; but I think that most players simply do not want to learn or get better.

Well, we gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. Ops NOT being repetitive, they have no way to do that. In many cases they are struggling to just sail their ships, let alone working out tactics, not to mention separate tactics for separate ships.In order to do that, you need somebody to show you what can be done.

 

And the general direction laid down by Weegee is to "just shoot monke your guns and don't' think coz its not for you" so......yeeah 

[Shepke]

5 hours ago, Khaba_Gandalf said:

Simple solution: Play as a division, I mean after all it is a multiplayer game...

And loss 20% of silver income..

Also you need to establish a wide network of teammates/friends, because at least 7 of them, must be online, when you have decided to play.   

[lup3s]

19 minutes ago, Shepke said:

And loss 20% of silver income..

Also you need to establish a wide network of teammates/friends, because at least 7 of them, must be online, when you have decided to play.   

 

You can play Random Operations with a division and not suffer the penalty.

[Shepke]

4 minutes ago, lup3s said:

 

You can play Random Operations with a division and not suffer the penalty.

but how? Is there any workaround?

 

[Andrewbassg]

25 minutes ago, Shepke said:

And loss 20% of silver income..

Actually it is a LOT more.

 

[Andrewbassg]

9 minutes ago, Shepke said:

but how? Is there any workaround?  

He is saying that you form a div with 7 or less people and play the RANDOM operation just like you would be playing alone.

[Shepke]

8 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

He is saying that you form a div with 7 or less people and play the RANDOM operation just like you would be playing alone.

And what is the probability of matched with my team in the same operation?

Or you trying to say that income reduction tied not to division but to type of operation (selected or random)?

 

[Andrewbassg]

23 minutes ago, Shepke said:

And what is the probability of matched with my team in the same operation?

 

Oh my......IF u are in div ALL of U will be in the same operation. EVEN if it is random.

 

23 minutes ago, Shepke said:

 Or you trying to say that income reduction tied not to division but to type of operation (selected or random)?

  

Thats a separate issue.

[ZygZag]

4 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

(...)However Random ops will teach (...)very slowly. You cannot just retry the same operation with fresh memory of what happened before. So very slow learning in many cases is the result ....

When the ops were in weekly cycle you could also find a few games in a row with buch of "refuse to learn anything" people. Newport defense, f.ex? Or loosing in Narai? Or AEGIS - which used to be a walk in the park difficulty lvl...

3 hours ago, lup3s said:

 

You value the average player too high.

WG can't force unwilling players to learn or get better.

And that's what Ops look like atm, a bunch of potatoes thinking it's Coop.

(...)
At one point you'll realise that the majority of the players are just here to "pewpew" and they do not care about winning / objectives / teamplay / ship role / ... .

Well said, I do have same opinion.

 

I like ops randomisation (not when I have same scenario 3 times once again, but still...). At last I am not doing same 7 days a week "Ministry of silly walks" moves

[Khaba_Gandalf]

Vor 1 Stunde, Shepke sagte:

And loss 20% of silver income..

Also you need to establish a wide network of teammates/friends, because at least 7 of them, must be online, when you have decided to play.   

? Why would I lose income, unless you mean that with 6 random potatoes I do more than the rest and thus get higher rewards.

 

The system only penalizes you as a division if you pick a specific Ops , instead of letting the system give you a random one. 

 

And since you don't want to cherry pick a certain scenario anyway, you don't need a full division. 3-4 guys playing together are more than enough to carry the team in pretty much all of the operation except for maybe Aegis. 

[Shepke]

25 minutes ago, Khaba_Gandalf said:

The system only penalizes you as a division if you pick a specific Ops 

Yep, i was misleaded by this. I always played specific operation while being in division (this actually the main reason, why you play ops with division - to pick up needed scenario)

28 minutes ago, Khaba_Gandalf said:

And since you don't want to cherry pick a certain scenario anyway, you don't need a full division. 3-4 guys playing together are more than enough to carry the team in pretty much all of the operation except for maybe Aegis. 

Seems pretty reasonable. I`ll try this, thx.

[lup3s]

1 hour ago, Shepke said:

but how? Is there any workaround?

 

 

As others already mentioned, you can pick a random Operation, or (if your division is large enough) pick a specific Operation.

Picking a specific Operation will have a penalty to your earnings, picking a random Operation won't (which you can still do with a 7P div btw).

[Ymustihaveaname]

6 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Issue is, all the game modes favor damage+kills and not actually playing the objective (ANY kind of objective). And this is the result of it 

 

5 hours ago, lup3s said:

You value the average player too high.

But It's also what they are taught from randoms, for example I just did a random and did 200K+ spotting damage combat scout winning game and got almost nothing as a reward from it.........I lost money and basically wasted my boasters.

[BlackYeti]

I have modified my Ops playstyle to prioritise objectives that are the point of failure most often for random teams, sacrificing other objectives. This means for example ALWAYS being there in front of Ruan for the final DD wave, ignoring transports/CV objective in Narai if neccessary to ensure the convoy is protected when entering harbor, personally ensuring airfields are shot at in Cherry, taking care of the 2xDD wave in Raptor, ignoring battleship objective in Aegis and focusing Myokos shooting transports etc. This way I may get less 5-star games but total failure rates have been reduced dramatically.

[bigdoguk]

Ops need to go back to the old days, this needing a div to do a certain one is pants not everyone divs for these. 

[lup3s]

1 hour ago, bigdoguk said:

Ops need to go back to the old days, this needing a div to do a certain one is pants not everyone divs for these. 

 

Nah it's good as it is ... don't want to go back to one week of the same Op without any change 

[NewHorizons_1]

11 minutes ago, lup3s said:

Nah it's good as it is ... don't want to go back to one week of the same Op without any change 

I'd prefer the option of knowing what op you're about to get, so that you can choose to avoid the ones you don't like or choose the most suitable ship for the ops you do like.

Maybe op of the hour or day with the option to choose randomly for those that don't mind which one they get.

[lup3s]

3 minutes ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

I'd prefer the option of knowing what op you're about to get, so that you can choose to avoid the ones you don't like or choose the most suitable ship for the ops you do like.

Maybe op of the hour or day with the option to choose randomly for those that don't mind which one they get.

 

Why all this snowflakes-stuff ? "I want to avoid the ones I don't like mimimi"

Learn the Ops and git gud, ffs.

 

:edit:

"OP of the hour or day" - I can already imagine something like a Narai-day and it would literally make me question humanity 

[NewHorizons_1]

2 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

I have modified my Ops playstyle to prioritise objectives that are the point of failure most often for random teams, sacrificing other objectives. This means for example ALWAYS being there in front of Ruan for the final DD wave, ignoring transports/CV objective in Narai if neccessary to ensure the convoy is protected when entering harbor, personally ensuring airfields are shot at in Cherry, taking care of the 2xDD wave in Raptor, ignoring battleship objective in Aegis and focusing Myokos shooting transports etc. This way I may get less 5-star games but total failure rates have been reduced dramatically.

Same here : If you want something done properly - do it yourself.

[NewHorizons_1]

3 minutes ago, lup3s said:

 

Why all this snowflakes-stuff ? "I want to avoid the ones I don't like mimimi"

Learn the Ops and git gud, ffs.

I know the ops fine - it's often everyone else.

[lup3s]

14 minutes ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

I know the ops fine - it's often everyone else.

 

The main issue with Ops is too many thinking it's Coop with better XP - which it isn't.

Yet they still play every game the same, with no regards for loss or victory, no interest in learning and trying to get better.

 

e.g.

Last weekend I had the same player 3 times in a row in Ops (in a Belfast '43).

 

The first two were Hermes : 

- first game he was trailing so far behind the Ruan, those 3 DDs at the end may have been outside of his firing range (he was not alone; 3 other Cruisers were also trailing half a map behind the Ruan); result ? Ruan got sunk and Operation lost.

- second game, exact same scenario : trailing too far behind the Ruan, and it got sunk AGAIN. I'd call him an ape but those can actually be taught something.

 

The third game was Raptor Rescue, this player got one-shot by the Fuso at the start (together with another Cruiser) ... imagine having to start the Operation ALREADY TWO SHIPS DOWN.

 

One would expect players to learn from mistakes and try to actually complete the Operation - but no, they're just there trying to leech off others completing the Operation for them. I wonder if they even realise the win and loss conditions of the different Operations, or that they are completely oblivious and think it's like Standard Battles.

 

At least that's one aspect the game doesn't stop amazing me, how [edited]retarded the """average""" player is.

 

 

:edit:

 

Give me the option to play Operations with bots. I'd prefer those over 99%of the players - wouldn't even matter if it's the "good" Ops bots or the "shitty" Coop bots. Them actually moving, tanking, shooting, and hitting already is 400% better than the thinking man.

[NewHorizons_1]

4 minutes ago, lup3s said:

Yet they still play every game the same, with no regards for loss or victory, no interest in learning and trying to get better.

I think @Hugh_Ruka makes a very valid point here.

23 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

However Random ops will teach this very slowly. You cannot just retry the same operation with fresh memory of what happened before. So very slow learning in many cases is the result ....

Back in the day, we had the luxury of honing our tactics time after time in the same op of the week.

It would become quite apparent, from one match to the next, what worked and what didn't.

It also kinda prepared you for what type of match ops are - as you say it certainly ain't co-op with more creds & XP.

And that was useful when Cherry Blossom** etc returned. First time out I did OK in it - came 3rd in Cleveland IIRC.

 

Newer players now get any op and it's probably a lot to take in and somewhat demoralizing when faced with wave after wave of uptiered ships (with inflated stats) when you're starting out in a T6.

Sure, there are bad players that don't learn. But I also try to put myself in the position someone starting out who can.

And I'd probably not like ops in their current format.

IMHO

• Have op of the day - that would speed up the learning process for new players.
• Form same tier teams - newer players in T6s then have a chance instead of facing uptiered & upscaled bots that we get when there's T8s in your team at the moment.

 

** Only one I initially struggled with was Hermes where all the bot BBs would drop everything the moment your cruiser got detected.

[NewHorizons_1]

37 minutes ago, lup3s said:

"OP of the hour or day" - I can already imagine something like a Narai-day and it would literally make me question humanity

Which was worse?

Narai week - where it was almost a guaranteed win (because the team seemed better) where you could safely use all your best eco camos and signals to rake in the credits and XP.

Or now, where the chance of failing Narai is much higher?

I know which I preferred. Sure I didn't do Narai all the time - I'd do several matches in my fave T7s and then do another mode.

Back then, you could choose to go after the CV or transports (I'd let the team know), as you knew everyone else would most likely ensure the safety of your troop transports.

 

[lup3s]

10 minutes ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

But I also try to put myself in the position someone starting out who can.

 

I try to do this but too often I realise the approach to gaming is different; one just wants to put his brain activity to zero and see some pixels move, the other wants to take on the challenge and (try to) improve themselves. Yes, experience is very valuable, but you can just look at some of the numbers and get a rough idea how to play a ship or an Operation - or look up information via Google or whatever search engine you prefer using. It's not difficult, but it requires effort - and the latter is what most don't seem to want to put in a game; it has to be as simple and as easy as possible, preferably via an "I WIN" button that they just have to press (if that's not too much effort).

[lup3s]

12 minutes ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

Which was worse?

Narai week - where it was almost a guaranteed win (because the team seemed better) where you could safely use all your best eco camos and signals to rake in the credits and XP.

Or now, where the chance of failing Narai is much higher?

I know which I preferred. Sure I didn't do Narai all the time - I'd do several matches in my fave T7s and then do another mode.

Back then, you could choose to go after the CV or transports (I'd let the team know), as you knew everyone else would most likely ensure the safety of your troop transports.

 

Of course failing more is worse - but the players haven't changed, have they ?

The same "average player" that played Narai back when Operations were still a weekly thing, should still be the same "average player" that's playing Narai now (i.e. complete shite) ?

 

BBs have always sailed behind the allied transports - as they do now.

BBs have always gone after the enemy transports - as they do now.

Too many ships (3, sometimes 4) going for the enemy transports is also a problem of all time.

Players dying to that single DD protecting the enemy transports, is also not new.

 

What is relatively new is BBs players not entering the harbour, or players sailing all the way North-East (no idea why btw, I guess they want to intercept the CV ?).

 

 

That and enemy bots are stronger so players die faster; you think this would teach them something but instead they go whine that Ops are too difficult and the AI is too good. Yeah just keep showing broadside in your Cruiser to a Battleship - clearly it's the AI that is "too good".

 

I want to get Ops with a higher difficulty, but as it seems now the only thing we'll get are easier and easier Ops to cater tto all those [edited]potatoes.