So is that that u so much wanted WG???

[WarburtonLee]

7 hours ago, Figment said:

Let's assume you don't set out to as you say. Your suggestions would still amount to such.

No, nothing is worse for DDs and Cruisers than alot of DDs. If you dont understand that, there is no point in having this discussion. I am a DD an Cruiser main, and i want to restrict DDs in the battles to max 3

[WarburtonLee]

19 hours ago, Figment said:

BBs hate torps and HE.

 

And cruisers love getting shot by HE, is that what you think? Try fight me in my Khaba or Zorkiy while you are in Des Moines.... I can assure you that you wont like it. DDs also mess with CE, say you where in a minotaur, and there was no DDs present. You would have full control of the vision game which this game is all about. Too many light units is not good.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

15 minutes ago, WarburtonLee said:

No, nothing is worse for DDs and Cruisers than alot of DDs. If you dont understand that, there is no point in having this discussion. I am a DD an Cruiser main, and i want to restrict DDs in the battles to max 3

As a cruiser DD enthusiast I agree.

[Djavdet_]

I played tanks for a while. I looked at the guide from the guru np IS-4. He told almost the entire guide under which stone to hide from artillery. Why doesn't it remind you?
What about artillery, what cowards play on submarines, who can throw a stone in the back and run away happy from their feat.

[ColonelPete]

17 minutes ago, Djavdet_ said:

I played tanks for a while. I looked at the guide from the guru np IS-4. He told almost the entire guide under which stone to hide from artillery. Why doesn't it remind you?
What about artillery, what cowards play on submarines, who can throw a stone in the back and run away happy from their feat.

Subs have a rather limited attack range. I doubt artillery in WoT works like that.

[Figment]

4 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Subs have a rather limited attack range. I doubt artillery in WoT works like that.

Artillery in WoT have top down satellite view on the battlefield and require line of sight (by arc). Aside from those hiding in predictable spots, they need a spotter to acquire a target. If they hit the right target in the right spot, they can deal a lot of damage, in the past even one shot some tanks if they got a penetration on the ammorack.

 

That part is like battleships in WoWs. Beyond that, battleships are infinitely more powerful and flexible.

 

First off, let's list the downsides of artillery in WoT with respect to BBs:

 

- They are less accurate. A cone of fire (oval) can stretch the entirety of the screen if the angle is too low. Artillery wants to fire like a mortar, so any unit that's approaching it is pretty hard to hit. A lot of the damage dealt is therefore indirect from HE near misses or damage dealt by others after they tracked and stunned a target since the arty change.

- While reload is similar to that of a BB, the aiming time is much longer. It can take half a minute to home in on a target to the point you can hit it. If you move the hull of your artillery unit, the oval is reset to maximum. If you move your cannon too fast, the oval is reset to maximum. Tracking a target that is circling you at short to medium range is nigh impossible, not in the least because of the very limited turn rate. And even if you track, the aforementioned oval becomes so unreliable you'll overshoot.

- Artillery are glass cannons with no armour. They die to a direct hit from enemy artillery and most tanks can pretty much one or three shot them unless they have a very small caliber gun (scout tanks and some mediums). CVs in contrast last way longer, even counting citadel hits and can actually retaliate at that point.

- Not all of them can shoot and scoot. Some are just too cumbersome and large to move, let alone gotten up a hill, making a Yamato seem like a ballet dancer at times.

 

Their sole advantage, like CVs, is range and arcs, firing from cover and being behind the last line of defense (unless the team left the entire flank open and a scout tank is allowed to expose them, marking them for counter-artillery and anyone with line of sight, including the scout at which point they die very quickly). Good counter-artillery spots the origin of their shells and takes them out in their often pretty limited options for hide-outs with good cover and view of the battlefield (particularly for big ones), before they can shoot and scoot though.

 

They are however hated like CV, because they intervene from a huge distance in local positional duels. Much like how a BB can intervene from 25km on a cruiser trying to flank or nose in on a target, they can completely screw up an attack. But mostly against stationary targets. Unfortunately for their targets, cowardice and the scouting system often means they are stationary because they can't break from cover and get spotted, lest they get shot by a bunch of camping/overwatch providing high damage TDs/HTs before even seeing who is firing at them.

 

 

In contrast, subs are more like Tank Destroyers who engage from medium to close range from stealth. Once you exposed and without a proper retreat, they're easy to outmaneouvre and kill.

[Figment]

5 hours ago, WarburtonLee said:

No, nothing is worse for DDs and Cruisers than alot of DDs. If you dont understand that, there is no point in having this discussion. I am a DD an Cruiser main, and i want to restrict DDs in the battles to max 3

For a DD there's really no big deal with having a lot of DDs unless you're a very poor duelist or work poorly with your allies. The only difference is you first focus on cleaning up the field close in front of you together with the other DD and cruisers. It's a lot of easy exp as killing a DD results in a high damage percentage. It's also easier to kill a couple DDs chasing you as a DD, than it is to kill several cruisers.

 

But if you mean getting quickly to the main course (BBs) and have little hinderance and chances of getting exposed and thus requiring less skill in combat, then sure.

 

Apparently you think in terms of impediments to your personal wants and easy play a lot. Gameplay and balance wise, it's fine however.

5 hours ago, WarburtonLee said:

And cruisers love getting shot by HE, is that what you think? Try fight me in my Khaba or Zorkiy while you are in Des Moines.... I can assure you that you wont like it.

Why are you attempting to make this into a strawman on two counts by presuming what I think or like?

5 hours ago, WarburtonLee said:

DDs also mess with CE, say you where in a minotaur, and there was no DDs present. You would have full control of the vision game which this game is all about. Too many light units is not good.

Have you ever had a "no DDs" match with lots and lots of cruisers? It's fine. Like with 5 DDs around, it's just different.

 

Apparently what you want is predictability, less variation, more repetition and therefore less replay value. No.

[WarburtonLee]

40 minutes ago, Figment said:

For a DD there's really no big deal with having a lot of DDs unless you're a very poor duelist or work poorly with your allies. The only difference is you first focus on cleaning up the field close in front of you together with the other DD and cruisers. It's a lot of easy exp as killing a DD results in a high damage percentage. It's also easier to kill a couple DDs chasing you as a DD, than it is to kill several cruisers.

 

But if you mean getting quickly to the main course (BBs) and have little hinderance and chances of getting exposed and thus requiring less skill in combat, then sure.

 

Apparently you think in terms of impediments to your personal wants and easy play a lot. Gameplay and balance wise, it's fine however.

Why are you attempting to make this into a strawman on two counts by presuming what I think or like?

Have you ever had a "no DDs" match with lots and lots of cruisers? It's fine. Like with 5 DDs around, it's just different.

 

Apparently what you want is predictability, less variation, more repetition and therefore less replay value. No.

Stop telling me to focus DDs first, do you think im imbecil? Im saying the worst thing for DDs is DDs, the worst thing for Cruisers is also DDs, and the worst thing for BBs is also DDs. And im a DD player. Too many DDs is NOT fun, either for the DDs, the Cruisers or the BBs. If you think otherwise, fine, but then i think you are very special

[WarburtonLee]

44 minutes ago, Figment said:

Have you ever had a "no DDs" match with lots and lots of cruisers? It's fine. Like with 5 DDs around, it's just different.

 

 

Yes i have, and they are usually not very fun either. They get real campy real fast, becouse noone wants to spot. DDs is needed, but not too many of them.

3 is perfect imo, and 2 in ranked

[Ymustihaveaname]

2 hours ago, WarburtonLee said:

3 is perfect imo, and 2 in ranked

Until one or more of them are Elbing's or something else that really can't do the DD job properly...but thats just like MM not looking at radar/none radar CA/CLs.

[WarburtonLee]

14 minutes ago, Ymustihaveaname said:

Until one or more of them are Elbing's or something else that really can't do the DD job properly...but thats just like MM not looking at radar/none radar CA/CLs.

Sure, but atleast in t10 ranked how it is of now, there is a "free" cap / open flank where a Gunboat can do his work, while the normal DD can go to the contesded cap. It sucks if you have 2 Khabas though :D

[Figment]

8 hours ago, WarburtonLee said:

Stop telling me to focus DDs first, do you think im imbecil? Im saying the worst thing for DDs is DDs, the worst thing for Cruisers is also DDs, and the worst thing for BBs is also DDs. And im a DD player. Too many DDs is NOT fun, either for the DDs, the Cruisers or the BBs. If you think otherwise, fine, but then i think you are very special

I didn’t “tell you to focus DD first”, I said that all it does is change the fighting periods and dynamics a bit. The reason I might consider you an imbecil is if you continue to presume things when people tell you otherwise. I’m saying a different dynamic isn’t bad, whereas you think it is as you can’t seem to want to handle that. Which is lazy and unimaginative, IMO. You want things to be predictable.

I think otherwise, I think it is fine that a higher degree of coordination between DDs is warranted to make for a good game. Including in randoms. Best team wins.

 

How is that’s reason enough for you to insult me? Sounds extremely narrowminded and uncreative. You fake tolerance when what you mean is you’ll pass a derogatory judgment. That’s not tolerance, that’s bigotted.

8 hours ago, WarburtonLee said:

Yes i have, and they are usually not very fun either. They get real campy real fast, becouse noone wants to spot. DDs is needed, but not too many of them.

3 is perfect imo, and 2 in ranked

Why would they get campy? Those cruiser matches are often very dynamic as they dare move without a BB blasting them instantly.

 

Besides, I’m one of the one’s spotting. Sounds like your instinct is to camp and contribute to a stale game.

[Figment]

8 hours ago, WarburtonLee said:

Stop telling me to focus DDs first, do you think im imbecil? Im saying the worst thing for DDs is DDs, the worst thing for Cruisers is also DDs, and the worst thing for BBs is also DDs. And im a DD player. Too many DDs is NOT fun, either for the DDs, the Cruisers or the BBs. If you think otherwise, fine, but then i think you are very special

I didn’t “tell you to focus DD first”, I said that all it does is change the fighting periods and dynamics a bit. The reason I might consider you an imbecil is if you continue to presume things when people tell you otherwise. I’m saying a different dynamic isn’t bad, whereas you think it is as you can’t seem to want to handle that. Which is lazy and unimaginative, IMO. You want things to be predictable.

I think otherwise, I think it is fine that a higher degree of coordination between DDs is warranted to make for a good game. Including in randoms. Best team wins.

 

You however can’t seem to explain your argument beyond a claim that it is somehow bad to potentially get exposed or jumped at by multiple DD as a DD, while also saying it’s bad for cruisers (it is not) and BB (if they coordinate proper there’s no issue, if they don’t that’s their problem and they’d have had similar negative issues in other compositions of the MM simply due to being bad players who don’t know how to adjust). If you failed to organise or adapt to a situation with a few more DDs (by for instance providing closer support early on) that is on you as a BbB and cruiser user.

 

How is that’s reason enough for you to insult me? Sounds extremely narrowminded and uncreative. You fake tolerance when what you mean is you’ll pass a derogatory judgment. That’s not tolerance, that’s bigotted.

8 hours ago, WarburtonLee said:

Yes i have, and they are usually not very fun either. They get real campy real fast, becouse noone wants to spot. DDs is needed, but not too many of them.

3 is perfect imo, and 2 in ranked

Why would they get campy? Those cruiser matches are often very dynamic as they dare move without a BB blasting them instantly.

 

Besides, I’m one of the one’s spotting. Sounds like your instinct is to camp and contribute to a stale game.

[Krikkio82]

On 1/29/2023 at 11:53 AM, Figment said:

Meh, how is this that bad? You'll face only one sub on your side. The CV's will be center for both and will need to take a long distance to get to you on the flanks, while you're surrounded by islands, so you can block line of sight from enemy ships that might fire at you when spotted with relative ease. No sub that can keep a ranged lock on you around those islands either in this map if you play properly, so you have a good chance to get close enough to surprise them as they make their way between the islands.

 

Could have been Ocean, then you might have had actual issues as a non-fog DD and a reason to complain.

Not complaining about MM to me, I complaining on MM

[Djavdet_]

It was possible to coexist with the SUB if they did not have a magical elven eye, in the direction of which arrows fly. If the WG nerds were able to make a wunderwaffe for the submarine, why couldn't they, for example, do the same for F Sherman? can not understand.

[LiveWire___]

DDs and some cruisers need Hedgehog / Squid launchers in addition to depth charges / ASW I think.

 

Give the Hedgehogs / Squids a range of, say, 1.5 - 2km, and that might be nice.

 

Obv they couldn't be used against surface targets (even though they clearly could be) for balans,  and there you go. 

[TheNubination]

On 1/29/2023 at 2:23 AM, Krikkio82 said:

Jeez fu**ing man that is bad!
MM after 1 sec to....this ???
PLS guys don't tell that is what u want...
 

Apparently the playerbase wants this. 

In b4 "But everyone plays subs cause they want to be equally toxic as someone is to them" nonsense.  Not everyone is a sociopath like Elazer who plays CVs while bitching about CVs for that reason.

 

On lower tiers subs are a huge success, often being the most popular category now, even more so than BBs.  I guess the spreadsheets dont lie.

[TheNubination]

22 minutes ago, LiveWire___ said:

DDs and some cruisers need Hedgehog / Squid launchers in addition to depth charges / ASW I think.

 

Give the Hedgehogs / Squids a range of, say, 1.5 - 2km, and that might be nice.

 

Obv they couldn't be used against surface targets (even though they clearly could be) for balans,  and there you go. 

Absolutely agree, though I feel subs have been so nerfed that beyond being annoying they generally, unless someone is really profecient with them, dont perform that well. Buff them a bit but give dedicated ASW units real ASW capabilities. Also while buffing subs in some way (damage, gimmicks) their speed should be lowered. One has to be able to chase them down, its as simple as that. 

[WarburtonLee]

8 hours ago, Figment said:

You however can’t seem to explain your argument beyond a claim that it is somehow bad to potentially get exposed or jumped at by multiple DD as a DD, while also saying it’s bad for cruisers (it is not) and BB (if they coordinate proper there’s no issue, if they don’t that’s their problem and they’d have had similar negative issues in other compositions of the MM simply due to being bad players who don’t know how to adjust).

Ok, so alot of DDs isnt bad for cruisers? Its the worst for cruisers, they can prevent you from ever going dark when you need it if theyre any good. Thats the thing. This game is all about vision control. And why exactly do you like alot of DDs if youre in a cruiser? Or if you are in a BB? Maybe you like to have nothing to shoot at all game in your Cruiser, while being permaspotted from 2 different angles but i dont. You seem to think i want NO DDs in the game, thats not what im saying. Im mainly a DD and cruiser player. 3 is fine i think, one for each part of the map. Too many DDs isnt great for any of those two classes, and also BBs. Some people say Schlieffen counters DDs for example, it absolutely dont. What Schlieffen needs, is not being spotted until it ambushes someone, or it basically dies instantly. (Thats why CVs are so broken, makes any ambush and use of terrain impossible) Good dd just keeps you spotted, or if gunboat, stay out of 12.5 and have the easiest kill ever. Its basically the same as in wot, too many lights isnt any fun, not for the lights, not for anyone else. One example of not any fun is previous season ranked t10. I liked to play Zorkiy sometimes, but unfortunately the MM mirrors a super-dd, and the problem comes when its another Zorkiy. The maps where basically so that it is only one cap/flank its viable to play such ship. So both Zorkiys went there every time, pre-kited fighting eachother, trading, healing, go into CE, back at fighting eachother. NOT any fun. We could actually fight eachother for 10 minutes, in and out, while neither would give up and retreat, becouse that would give the "home cap" to the enemy. Meanwhile, if that Zorkiy wasnt there, i could fight the enemy BBs and cruisers witch actually IS fun. When the MM put a Dalarna or Yamagiri instead, then i could actually play the game, instead of pointless trading with the same ship all game. The difference is, if it was a supership other than Zorkiy, i could push through and start fighting capital ships, even though i know the DD is around spotting me. If he opens up, takes the fight, i fought the DD. But you cant push through another Zorkiy doing the same thing, both will end up (if he is any good that is) kiting away...

[ColonelPete]

1 hour ago, WarburtonLee said:

Ok, so alot of DDs isnt bad for cruisers? Its the worst for cruisers, they can prevent you from ever going dark when you need it if theyre any good.

If one can stay hidden from one DD, one can stay hidden from two DD, unless the second DD gets closer than usual, which should be more difficult with more DD to spot him. Btw. most players are not any good...

1 hour ago, WarburtonLee said:

Ok, so alot of DDs isnt bad for cruisers? Its the worst for cruisers, they can prevent you from ever going dark when you need it if theyre any good. Thats the thing. This game is all about vision control. And why exactly do you like alot of DDs if youre in a cruiser? Or if you are in a BB? Maybe you like to have nothing to shoot at all game in your Cruiser, while being permaspotted from 2 different angles but i dont.

The more DD are in the game, the more DD get spotted, the more targets you get to shoot. This also makes it easier to anticipate DD positions, which in turn makes it easier to maintain stealth.

[WarburtonLee]

13 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

If one can stay hidden from one DD, one can stay hidden from two DD, unless the second DD gets closer than usual, which should be more difficult with more DD to spot him. Btw. most players are not any good...

The more DD are in the game, the more DD get spotted, the more targets you get to shoot. This also makes it easier to anticipate DD positions, which in turn makes it easier to maintain stealth.

Really, the more DDs are in the game, the easier to maintain stealth. OK, i wont discuss any more i think you have no clue

[ColonelPete]

Just now, WarburtonLee said:

Really, the more DDs are in the game, the easier to maintain stealth. OK, i wont discuss any more i think you have no clue

That is because you do not think about it....

One DD can only cover a certain area, which gives an enemy DD a good chance to slip by.

With two DD you double the area they cover, which makes it even harder for one DD to slip through and results in more spotted enemy DD. Making it easier to anticipate enemy DD positions and harder to get suprised by a DD that slipped through.

[WarburtonLee]

11 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

That is because you do not think about it....

One DD can only cover a certain area, which gives an enemy DD a good chance to slip by.

With two DD you double the area they cover, which makes it even harder for one DD to slip through and results in more spotted enemy DD. Making it easier to anticipate enemy DD positions and harder to get suprised by a DD that slipped through.

And when DDs start dying, due to snowball effect, more DDs are slipping through, than if there was 1 vs 1 on that flank...

[ColonelPete]

Just now, WarburtonLee said:

And when DDs start dying, due to snowball effect, more DDs are slipping through, than if there was 1 vs 1 on that flank...

That is where your contribution comes in. Make sure the enemy DD sink first.

[WarburtonLee]

24 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

That is where your contribution comes in. Make sure the enemy DD sink first.

You cant prevent idiots from dying, no matter how many times you say so. If your shima insist on smoking up in front of a Desmo, you cant do crap about it, while the enemy DD is smart and baits your radars etc