Why are so many ships restricted in the next CB?

[Panocek]

36 minutes ago, President_of_UKRAlNE said:

Well, if you do not want constant resentment in the KB for the fact that you are increasing the limited ships, then you should think about working out the armor of cruisers, because this is a global problem. Take a look at Random Battles or Ranked Battles (especially at lvl 5-8). The superior number of ships is occupied by destroyers and battleships, and there are 1-2 cruisers, or even none at all ... This says something ...

Uparmoring tier 10 to 32mm will merely move goalpost, something that sooner or later will be rendered a pointless change as WG will follow up with more 460mm+ armed battleships. We had this exact story, when WG introduced 30mm plating to T10 cruisers and very few BBs had 30mm overmatch capability at the time, only Yamato and Republique I think?

 

At the same time, facing cruiser that can resist overmatch and is manned by player that happen to be smart enough to not keep showing broadside is miserable experience, so whole shell-armor interactions, for both AP and HE would have to be changed.

[PrZelenskiy_UA]

32 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Підвищення рівня 10 до 32 мм просто перемістить стійку воріт, що рано чи пізно стане безглуздим, оскільки WG розробить більше лінкорів калібру 460 мм і більше. У нас була саме така історія, коли WG представила 30-міліметрове покриття для крейсерів T10, і дуже мало BB мали 30-міліметрову здатність перевищувати на той час, я думаю, лише Yamato та Republique?

 

У той же час, зіткнутися з крейсером, який може протистояти переборюванню та керований гравцем, який виявляється достатньо розумним, щоб не продовжувати показувати борт, є жалюгідним досвідом, тому взаємодію снаряда та броні як для AP, так і для HE доведеться змінити.

the fact is that the cruisers in the design bureau are only partially tanked by AP shells from the Battleships (in 90% this is penetration through the nose). It's not about increasing the armor of the side, namely the bow + taking into account the angles, otherwise in our game the armor for cruisers does not matter, they simply do not tank battleships' AP shells ... Alas, because of this situation, they made such a restriction on battleships.

[Seraphice]

5 hours ago, Hirohito said:

The reason is simple:

WG has created too many ships that are significantly stronger than others, to the point that it would impact the meta in such a way that these ships would be stacked.
Some ship types are also so dominant that it would kill a healthy representation of all classes.

BBs are the most restricted class, and the reason for that is that they both provide the strongest, consistent and punishing crossfire in the game, while a lot of them also have 30mm overmatching guns that further exacerbate the problem of cruisers taking either catastrophic damage or getting outright devstruck from BB fire.
BBs especially are too strong for CBs as an isolated ship class, and the restrictions are thus in place in order to limit BB spam which would kill off cruiser play.

(But of course, potatoes will keep claiming that cruiser HE and fires are OP, as always)

While it is true that BBs are limited in clan battles in general, the specific restrictions on the banned BBs this season are not linked to the performance of every one of the banned BBs specifically.

The BBs that are banned are any BB with a caliber in the range of 421-459mm.  Specifically to make the pool of BBs rather limited in terms of options that posses overmatch, leaving only Yamato, Shikishima and Incomparable in that role.
All 3 of those ships have very significant weaknesses to get those extremely large calibers.

 

3 hours ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said:

Being hard to kill is certainly it's own benefit, then add 457mm overmatch, secondaries, a long range hydro and rather short engagement distances...

Preussen is hardly popular nor strong in Clan Battles.

 

3 hours ago, arttuperkunas said:

The Kleber/Marceau spam is going to be brutal.

If it turns out to be an issue we'll adjust the restriction

 

2 hours ago, ItsEyeJasper said:

As long as we are not Plagued by 3 x French DD & 2 x Khaba i am fine.

 

I seriously doubt anyone will play that. You see a bit of Khaba on ASIA, but otherwise they are extremely rare.

 

1 hour ago, President_of_UKRAlNE said:

From this movement in the next season, I am 50/50 satisfied and not satisfied. The whole problem is that these battleships pierce almost any cruiser with 30 mm armor in the bow ... but you forgot Shikishima, Yamato and Incamparable ... Based on what, these battleships will replace those that are limited. Well, the setups of French destroyers remain important, which have been causing imbalance in this mode for several seasons already... I would recommend in subsequent seasons of the CB to FOREVER exclude ships that cannot be obtained in any way, I'm talking about Thunderer and Småland. Thus, it will be fair to young clans and players who simply do not have these ships and will add the opportunity, like you in  your text, to EXPERIMENT on ship setups.
Otherwise, we will observe a picture when every season instead of Girings, Darings, Shimakaze and others they will take Marceau or Småland or combine their number

Don't really think this will be the case - Montana was already quite popular last season so I doubt we will see exlusively Yamato/Shikishima/Incomparable. Additionally the maps do give way to other options such as Schlieffen or maybe even GK, provided the meta allows it.
 

1 hour ago, President_of_UKRAlNE said:

Well, if you do not want constant resentment in the KB for the fact that you are increasing the limited ships, then you should think about working out the armor of cruisers, because this is a global problem. Take a look at Random Battles or Ranked Battles (especially at lvl 5-8). The superior number of ships is occupied by destroyers and battleships, and there are 1-2 cruisers, or even none at all ... This says something ...

This season is more an exception than the rule in terms of restrictions. We are shaking things up heavily to see how this impacts things.

 

Fair seas captain!
~Sera

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

25 minutes ago, Seraphice said:

We are shaking things up heavily to see how this impacts things.

Here at least one isn't stupefied by the... extremely simplistic attempt to prolong games as a "countermeasure" to steamrolls, one can actually insinuate deliberation.

Can we remove the overmatch anything BBs from randoms, too, for a while - pretty please? They're annoying  there, too. Incidentally much like the other things you don't allow in CW for a reason.

[Weij0]

1 hour ago, Seraphice said:

"The Kleber/Marceau spam is going to be brutal."

If it turns out to be an issue we'll adjust the restriction

 

 

I expect adjusting happening in 2 weeks.. probably to 2 instead of 3

[MixuS]

7 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

And she is still not too strong...

Did you know you can get Preussen reload around 19s when there's a ship in secondary range... before AR bonus?

[Wulf_Ace]

Its because they want to ban all ships until there is just Zao...

[ColonelPete]

57 minutes ago, MixuS said:

Did you know you can get Preussen reload around 19s when there's a ship in secondary range... before AR bonus?

One can reduce the reload of any ship by a lot. Most ships have more guns.

And no, that does not make her strong. That are just captain skills and modules.

[Redcap375]

8 hours ago, Zuihou_Kai_Ni said:

People just cried to much about how boring the season was because the best teams all picked the same lineup (What a surprise, who wouldn't pick the best possible setups?). So WG restricted the most picked choices of last season so the same players can complain about the next new best lineup.

 

And pray tell, why are people picking certain ships?

 

Why do you think ships like say the Smalland has been banned for the second (or third, cant remember now) time running?

[Redcap375]

6 hours ago, Seraphice said:

While it is true that BBs are limited in clan battles in general, the specific restrictions on the banned BBs this season are not linked to the performance of every one of the banned BBs specifically.

The BBs that are banned are any BB with a caliber in the range of 421-459mm.  Specifically to make the pool of BBs rather limited in terms of options that posses overmatch, leaving only Yamato, Shikishima and Incomparable in that role.
All 3 of those ships have very significant weaknesses to get those extremely large calibers.

 

What? significate weakness? Hasn't all ships apparently got weaknesses? What makes THEM 3 ships special?  Why did you outright ban the Ohio this season? however, I do like the fact that you have recognised those ships have significate weakness.  

 

What about the cruisers and DD's? Or is this also to do with gun calibre?

 

I do get the calibre issue as it lowers the cruiser survivablity a lot, but that just means that they will pick the remaining ships that CAN pen the threshold. 

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

8 hours ago, lup3s said:

 

According to some, that would be unethical. Better to play with the worst ships and 0-point captains.

 

Praise be the lord of light !

I do that all the time. In case I still win, I'll try win harder or throw it. 

QED my winrate (or lack of it). 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

1 hour ago, Redcap375 said:

Why do you think ships like say the Smalland has been banned for the second (or third, cant remember now) time running?

what are you talking about? When was the last time smalland got banned? I played it for the whole last season?

Maybe play CBs yourself instead of asking me in a way as if I don't know what'S going on.

[Redcap375]

6 minutes ago, Zuihou_Kai_Ni said:

what are you talking about? When was the last time smalland got banned? I played it for the whole last season?

Maybe play CBs yourself instead of asking me in a way as if I don't know what'S going on.

 

Oh yeah, you know what...My bad, I forgot that it was available last season. Loosing track after all these CBs and restrictions, I wrongly assumed that was one of them. 

 

So why do you think they have band the Smalland this season?

 

[OldschoolGaming_YouTube]

18 hours ago, RazorBlade72 said:

There are now 9 ships restricted for the next CB. So you have a nice ship and you can't use it. Why is that, and why so many? There might now be people that have only one or a few ships that they can use and they can't join the CB because all their ships are restricted. Yes, they can join in a rental but that is not what you want, right? I think this restriction proces is getting way out of hand. 

 

Because WG spews out new unbalanced broken ships by the minute and they totally given up on creating any balance whatsoever in this game so that means every season they have to go thru all the latest editions as well as the old ones and either ban the class all together or just put hard restrictions on them because otherwise ALL the players would be playing ONLY these broken, unbalanced ships and now at least some poor sods of the players have to draw the short straw and play the really crappy turds..... and just face all the powerful unbalanced ships......... Enjoy!

 

And they even spew them out in such a hurry they don't even make it to live server before they are restricted in CB (Loiusiana for example) ...... But please dont read anything into this .... like its a broken OP ship or something.....

 

Spreadsheets and silent majority says they are totally fine ...... you just cant choose to play them in CB....... because this isn't like a game ..... that you have any say in .... and can enjoy.... WG decides when you can be unbalanced OP and crap on everyone ..... Not YOU!

[ollonborre]

27 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

So why do you think they have band the Smalland this season?

Because it is an insta pick if it is avaible for obvious reasons, and I suspect they removed it this time around to "spice things up" the same way the removed pretty much all overmatching/high tanking BB's. But they did not limit the gunboat meta at all in general so we have not really made any progress. 

 

Expect to see Kléber spam (oh joy) backed up by Ragnar/Delny/Kebab with a Petro and Colombo thrown in for good measures.

[Redcap375]

18 minutes ago, ollonborre said:

Because it is an insta pick if it is avaible for obvious reasons, and I suspect they removed it this time around to "spice things up" the same way the removed pretty much all overmatching/high tanking BB's. But they did not limit the gunboat meta at all in general so we have not really made any progress. 

 

Expect to see Kléber spam (oh joy) backed up by Ragnar/Delny/Kebab with a Petro and Colombo thrown in for good measures.

 

That's what i'm trying to get at......."obvious reasons".  What are those obvious reasons?

 

We know what those obvious reason are but WG staff and some others for whatever reason refuse to accept that.  They wont even entertain the idea that some ships are inherently stronger than others.

 

They are trying to skirt around the issue by saying it's "experimenting" and "meta".`

 

2 of the 3 BBs left on that list are not on the silver line? Do we think that is slightly strange? Again, widening the gap between those that do and those that don't. 

 

All we require is for them to say "well, because they are too strong for the gamemode". They don't even have to say for the game in general!  That's it. Its simple and I would be totally fine with that.  But playing dumb like they are doing is cringeworthy.

 

[ollonborre]

11 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

 

That's what i'm trying to get at......."obvious reasons".  What are those obvious reasons?

- Great DPM, second highest HE DPM out of all tier 10 DD's.

- Good enough concealment at 6 km.

- Radar with 7.5 km range that negates any concealment advantage or smoke.

- For the CV seasons it still has enough AA to be really annoying.

- Heals meaning it can trade really well and has a lot of staying power.

- Torps are low damage but has 12 km range and are really fast. 

- A shorter duration but more powerful speedboost that is great for getting out of trouble.

 

It is such a strong ship in a competative context because you don't loose or give up anything really by having it in your lineup. The only thing the Småland can't do is smoke up your allies, that's it. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Redcap375 said:

So why do you think they have band the Smalland this season?

I think they will have a new thingy (not banned of course) on special sale "soon^TM" but that could just be me... 

[Redcap375]

2 hours ago, ollonborre said:

- Great DPM, second highest HE DPM out of all tier 10 DD's.

- Good enough concealment at 6 km.

- Radar with 7.5 km range that negates any concealment advantage or smoke.

- For the CV seasons it still has enough AA to be really annoying.

- Heals meaning it can trade really well and has a lot of staying power.

- Torps are low damage but has 12 km range and are really fast. 

- A shorter duration but more powerful speedboost that is great for getting out of trouble.

 

It is such a strong ship in a competative context because you don't loose or give up anything really by having it in your lineup. The only thing the Småland can't do is smoke up your allies, that's it. 

 

And of course i know all that mate, lol, so does the majority of the WOWS world.

 

Hence my whole point. 

 

But the few WOWS lackies and sock puppets refuse to admit it. So this whole "mixing it up this season" is nothing but a steaming pile of poo. They just haven't got the golf balls to say it, which is really really sad.  It must be soul destroying for them. 

 

But remember lads, and this is from the horses mouth, "they all have theirs strengths and weakness". Ho ho ho

 

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others

[Redcap375]

@Seraphice ok mate.  Cards on the table here and lets cut the c***.

 

What are you guys/girls/others trying to achieve?  What is your vision for this seasons CB's?

 

How about for once, ask us? The ones that actually play it? Yes it's asking the unclean masses, but if you have a vision, how about getting the players on your side?

 

Is the team worried about Cruisers being wiped out? Hence the calibre restriction? Or your worried that certain ships might (lets go with that) be a bit too strong. Certain spam divs (hence the restrictions)?  I'm not talking about money driven stuff here as that is a given, your a company trying to make money and that's OK, we get it and as annoying as that is, that's life. 

 

But in 7 years, how about you start to get us on your side for once.  Because all the WG staff that have come and gone in a ball of flames over the years have always stuck to the party line.  How about you be that little bit different?

 

Those that are still left from back then, remember when the forum was mostly positive.

 

 

^^^ Created to HELP people get into the RTS CV game or game in general? That's when AA actually did something.

 

How many positive threads do you see now? 

 

You can't control the shareholders above, but you can at least be honest at the coal face.  Who knows, people might actually start to get onboard? Granted It's a long shot after the years of horrendous PR screw ups, kicking LWM into the dirt and reviewers leaving in droves...But how about you get the ball rolling again.  basically, how bad can it really get? The only way is up...

[RepSrb]

On 1/27/2023 at 4:44 AM, RazorBlade72 said:

There are now 9 ships restricted for the next CB. So you have a nice ship and you can't use it. Why is that, and why so many? There might now be people that have only one or a few ships that they can use and they can't join the CB because all their ships are restricted. Yes, they can join in a rental but that is not what you want, right? I think this restriction proces is getting way out of hand. 

you think ? infact there are many more ships counting carriers and submarines ,over 20 ships banned.!!!!!

when will they finally get carriers back into clanwars, like they deserve, this is outrageous....!!!!!!

i suppose they should expand to 8-9 players in clanwars to account for new classes , with 1 cv ,1 bb,1 ss, as a must , and rest dd and ca-cl.

[Fat_Maniac]

20 hours ago, President_of_UKRAlNE said:

 I would recommend in subsequent seasons of the CB to FOREVER exclude ships that cannot be obtained in any way, I'm talking about Thunderer and Småland.

But you can get them. You just have to wait for Santa crates and go whale, or get very very lucky

[Seraphice]

On 1/27/2023 at 9:32 PM, Redcap375 said:

 

What? significate weakness? Hasn't all ships apparently got weaknesses? What makes THEM 3 ships special?  Why did you outright ban the Ohio this season? however, I do like the fact that you have recognised those ships have significate weakness.  

 

What about the cruisers and DD's? Or is this also to do with gun calibre?

 

I do get the calibre issue as it lowers the cruiser survivablity a lot, but that just means that they will pick the remaining ships that CAN pen the threshold. 

 

Yamato and Shikishima are rather vulnerable and slow, to make up for their increase in firepower and caliber. Incomparable is especially vulnerable due to her low HP pool, vulnerable citadel and weak extremity platings. They "pay" for their caliber much more.

 

The reason why we banned Ohio is because we simply banned every ship with calibers 421-459mm to crack down on 30mm overmatch to see how it would affect the meta.

On 1/27/2023 at 9:22 PM, Wulf_Ace said:

Its because they want to ban all ships until there is just Zao...

I can still remember playing Zao in Clan Battles

 

On 1/27/2023 at 9:24 PM, Redcap375 said:

 

And pray tell, why are people picking certain ships?

 

Why do you think ships like say the Smalland has been banned for the second (or third, cant remember now) time running?

This is in fact the first season where smaland is banned

 

On 1/27/2023 at 11:32 PM, Redcap375 said:

 

That's what i'm trying to get at......."obvious reasons".  What are those obvious reasons?

 

We know what those obvious reason are but WG staff and some others for whatever reason refuse to accept that.  They wont even entertain the idea that some ships are inherently stronger than others.

 

They are trying to skirt around the issue by saying it's "experimenting" and "meta".`

 

2 of the 3 BBs left on that list are not on the silver line? Do we think that is slightly strange? Again, widening the gap between those that do and those that don't. 

 

All we require is for them to say "well, because they are too strong for the gamemode". They don't even have to say for the game in general!  That's it. Its simple and I would be totally fine with that.  But playing dumb like they are doing is cringeworthy.

 

Not all ships are exactly equal, it is true. It is also not possible to have every ship exactly and perfectly on the same power level. Especially in clan battles. This is because the game is not balanced around clan battles and certain ship attributes are much more important in clan battles than in random battles.

In a competitive environment, Napoli is extremely strong, which is why she has been limited in most competitive formats. However in randoms she is hardly too strong, her damage output isn't anything special and while her tanking is great, it is not as valued in randoms.

 

The same goes for a limitation on BBs in competitive formats. It is not a problem in randoms to have 5-6 BBs out of 12, but in competitive 1-2 BBs for 7-9 players is ok.

 

And in fact, this season is an experiment. We have worked closely with devs on the restrictions and map pools this time to ensure this season is fundamentally different from the last, to make sure that we dont get 17 weeks of the same, and to see how radically changing restrictions and maps impacts the meta and what the feedback is on the restrictions made.

 

On 1/28/2023 at 2:29 AM, Redcap375 said:

@Seraphice ok mate.  Cards on the table here and lets cut the c***.

 

What are you guys/girls/others trying to achieve?  What is your vision for this seasons CB's?

 

How about for once, ask us? The ones that actually play it? Yes it's asking the unclean masses, but if you have a vision, how about getting the players on your side?

 

Is the team worried about Cruisers being wiped out? Hence the calibre restriction? Or your worried that certain ships might (lets go with that) be a bit too strong. Certain spam divs (hence the restrictions)?  I'm not talking about money driven stuff here as that is a given, your a company trying to make money and that's OK, we get it and as annoying as that is, that's life. 

 

But in 7 years, how about you start to get us on your side for once.  Because all the WG staff that have come and gone in a ball of flames over the years have always stuck to the party line.  How about you be that little bit different?

 

Those that are still left from back then, remember when the forum was mostly positive.

 

 

^^^ Created to HELP people get into the RTS CV game or game in general? That's when AA actually did something.

 

How many positive threads do you see now? 

 

You can't control the shareholders above, but you can at least be honest at the coal face.  Who knows, people might actually start to get onboard? Granted It's a long shot after the years of horrendous PR screw ups, kicking LWM into the dirt and reviewers leaving in droves...But how about you get the ball rolling again.  basically, how bad can it really get? The only way is up...

We have actually been in contact with the core competitive community for a long time and we've made sure to hear their feedback and implement changes based on their feedback this season. I encourage you to leave your feedback too! The best place would be e.g. the King of the Sea discord - the main competitive discord for WoWs.
I've explained to you before the reasons for changing up the season, but you simlpy refuse to believe them. We really are just experimenting. We've drastically changed restrictions and maps for this reason, and we aren't afraid to make more changes to evaluate the data.

We're not really worried about cruisers dying out - rather we want to try to increase cruiser diversity by making cruiser options more viable. In a 2BB 7v7 setting it is difficult for 30mm cruisers to survive, hence the restriction.

And as I mentioned above already, it is no secret that in competitive some ships are stronger than others, which is why we have restrictions and bans in the first place - I don't think we ever denied this either.

 

Fair seas captain!
~Sera

[BLUB__BLUB]

51 minutes ago, Seraphice said:

worked closely with devs on the restrictions and map pools this time

That said mate, it would be nice if you could update the maps on the Training Room.

Some of them are still old style, for example THIS MAP is not present.

Cap is still in old position like previous Clan Battles. 

 

[Seraphice]

41 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

That said mate, it would be nice if you could update the maps on the Training Room.

Some of them are still old style, for example THIS MAP is not present.

Cap is still in old position like previous Clan Battles. 

 

They are already updated on the 12.1 PTS, if you want to check them out. Unfortunately they are not in the 12.0 client, as maps were not decided when the 12.0 patch was launched.

 

Fair seas captain!
~Sera