Hybrid ships do not belong to battleship tree

[WingedHussar_Adler]

3 minutes ago, Figment said:

 

Do you not think there'd be more opposition to the radar gimmick in the first situation than in the second? There's just no direct comparison because of the combination of variables having changed.

Problem here, right now, is that we can not even imagine how many squads will be in game when they get fully introduced in game...i really relly expect minimum 3 of them per side.....and god forbide, there is CV in game.....sky will be full :)

 

p.s.

did i see premium hybrid as pfinal prize in premium battlepass?

[Hades_warrior]

5 hours ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

That is truth....but you can enjoy game for free.....even you can get alot of "premium" ships on tx without ever spending a dime.

Exept spending your own time (months and months for a single ship), which I sometimes value even more than money.

This game lost her enjoyment factor long time ago.

Before you tell me to stop playing her in that case - I did. Now im no CoD Warzone 2.0 DMZ until Diablo 4 comes out than i'll play both those games simultaneously.

And maybe will come back briefly in WoWS only for some big events like anniversaries.

[Figment]

1 minute ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

Problem here, right now, is that we can not even imagine how many squads will be in game when they get fully introduced in game...i really relly expect minimum 3 of them per side.....and god forbide, there is CV in game.....sky will be full :)

If it's going to be a problem - which it undoubtedly will - one may expect some reasonable action from WG on this. I don't think there's much disagreement there among players. It would be relatively bad to have no limits on certain classes after all.

 

It'd be nice if they'd be proactive in this, but knowing WG they'll first want to see how it plays out over time after the initial hype and especially because of the hype initially minimize restrictions to give as much players as possible a chance to play and ideally to give players as much freedom as possible in choosing their options. Of course, that's asking for exploitation.

 

I don't agree with that approach, but we'll just have to see.

[OldschoolGaming_YouTube]

1 hour ago, Figment said:

I do wonder when they turn the AA on and off though.

 

What AA tho? Have you played IJN DDs lately? What AA?! Same can be said about most other nations as well with a very few exceptions .... What AA!? I think we both can agree that most DD AA is mostly. cosmetic? Its a firework show so the DD player dont feel as bad when he gets blapped for half his life in a single drop.

 

1 hour ago, Figment said:

Neither. When I see a plane coming my way (CV or otherwise), I go slightly out of its likely trajectory, with the option of running for island cover in case of spotting. As long as I don't need to go in between islands, I don't and thus keep full line of sight of everything. When I do have to hide it's only very temporarily, why would I be hugging that island constantly? By going for islands, I will try to force a turn overhead by going close enough to an island that you're in my AA range for a longer period of time as you can't make a proper approach through cover unless you got dive bombers.

I just don't understand how you go "slightly out of their trajectory" when planes coming at you at 200-300 knots and an average DD do like 30-40? And while you try and turn away you lose a lot of speed. I would say even a Kleber on speed boost will have a hard time doing what you say.

Do you engage caterpillar-supersonic drive to just zip out of his trajectory or what? Also considering if you are even around 10 km diameter from the planes, even with AA of the plane guy will get a prompt that his squadron is spotted and if he doesn't see a cruiser or a BB he knows 100 % a DD is within that 10 km circle which he can cover with easy in about 10 seconds. 

And "running for island cover in case of spotting"?! He out runs you like 10 times over. What new hybrid DD are you playing? 

 

The way you describe how you play you must have a DD that either go 300 knots or just beem across the map. There is no "if I see planes I just zip over to that island and when planes are gone I just zip out to open water". Do you know how slow and bad maneuverable DDs are in comparison to planes? Also, I would argue most attack squadrons outmaneuvers DDs while pre-sighting even in turns .... because reasons 

 

 

1 hour ago, Figment said:

Likely, but we've seen a period where Kearsarge and Tone were introduced and tbh that didn't matter all that much and right now the Kearsage and Tone aren't overused despite having been available for some time. Of course, Tone and Kearsarge (B) are premium ships to be bought with gold and not a tech tree ship, so that might give rise to more of these. But all in all I find these ships to be weaker and worse played than regular BBs and cruisers, with massive exploitable downtime.

 

There is a huge difference in Premiums and a new tech line that everyone and their grandmother will grind as soon as they get released. There are even players grinding the new IJN light cruiser line even tho its pretty crap so a new line of hybrids that offers BB mains a way to deal with DDs (their biggest threat) will be flooding the servers for sure. 

I dont find my Kearsarge to be weak at all since airstrikes is only something you do while the guns reload, when all other BB players just scratch their head. And there is also a difference in what you consider powerful. Have I had a server record game in Kearsarge, no I haven't, but a glue eater in a Conqueror can get that. But he cant do jack about an harassing DD, KL can find and kill that, so in that way I would say K is way more powerful since damage dont win games.

 

1 hour ago, Figment said:

But their stats are pretty average for ships in their tier.

 

But stats dont always tell the full story. So far the videos ive seen seems pretty good, and they will always have one armament over the regular BBs, so you have to consider the stats for both.

 

1 hour ago, Figment said:

I don't think they'll be able to match firepower as easily, so won't be that popular in the long run.

 

 

A BB that can deal with both of their biggest pests, DDs and CVs ..... naaah why would that be popular.....

 

Its like saying a DD that could submerge and become a submarine whenever he gets radared, hydrod, plane spotted wouldn't be popular.

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

5 hours ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

p.s.

secondaries work when planes are in air?

Yes they do. You can also use autopilot (better send many sheep to RNGesus, but you can). 
However you cannot use torps or main guns, also you cannot turn guns while flying the planes.

 

BUT... on Kearsarge, because they are rocket planes, you CAN use the guns while planes are still dropping. 
This is because the artificial delay (same as with CVs), you have pressed fire and now they are 'automated'. 
As soon as you have set them to 'release load' you can press F and return to captain your ship. 
If you are a smartypants with this, the ship that the planes are rocketing is still spotted (by the planes) and you can shoot it at the same time. 

But, you have to be 'lucky' (or smartypants) to have your guns pointing the right way already. 

[NewHorizons_1]

2 hours ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

p.s.

did i see premium hybrid as pfinal prize in premium battlepass?

Nope. That's just Nebraska - the early access tech tree ship.

Early access vessels are always "Special" ships like the freemiums Azuma, Kurfurst & Moskva.

While it is in the early access phase it does have the advantage you can move commanders to and from it, without retraining costs, but that's about it IIRC.

It's one of the reasons I think this battle pass won't be popular as it's a pay-2-skip the grind through Colorado that you can do for free ... eventually.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

Never mind the bollocks ^^

 

[WingedHussar_Adler]

2 hours ago, Europizza said:

Never mind the bollocks ^^

 

why so mad? we all get your double standards....it is in human nature

[WingedHussar_Adler]

3 hours ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

Nope. That's just Nebraska - the early access tech tree ship.

Early access vessels are always "Special" ships like the freemiums Azuma, Kurfurst & Moskva.

While it is in the early access phase it does have the advantage you can move commanders to and from it, without retraining costs, but that's about it IIRC.

It's one of the reasons I think this battle pass won't be popular as it's a pay-2-skip the grind through Colorado that you can do for free ... eventually.

agree...it crap of "reward"

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

2 hours ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

why so mad? we all get your double standards....it is in human nature

What double standards? 

11 hours ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

me like = it is ok

me no like = OP 

This? Can you please quote me where I say the current iteration of carriers are OP? Thanks a bunch 

 

[Verblonde]

6 hours ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

the grind through Colorado

[WingedHussar_Adler]

7 minutes ago, Europizza said:

What double standards? 

This? Can you please quote me where I say the current iteration of carriers are OP? Thanks a bunch 

 

cccccc see how we can get along when you realize you were mistaken and CVs are ok.....it was a proces but we did it 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

13 hours ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

me like = it is ok

me no like = OP 

 

Still waiting for you to support this brainfart of yours with quotes from me. Thanks a bunch man. 

[Fediuld]

On 1/22/2023 at 1:51 PM, Pukovnik7 said:

I have already explained the reasoning, which you have clearly missed: the greatest value of a CV is that it can spot targets for his team. Hybrids can do that, therefore they are basically carriers.

So by your definition Tone and Ise are carriers too? 

[Figment]

18 hours ago, OldschoolGaming_YouTube said:

What AA tho? Have you played IJN DDs lately? What AA?! Same can be said about most other nations as well with a very few exceptions .... What AA!? I think we both can agree that most DD AA is mostly. cosmetic? Its a firework show so the DD player dont feel as bad when he gets blapped for half his life in a single drop.

They're not very effective against strikes no (unless firing from concealment in smoke and them hovering overhead while being spotted by someone else, which is also an annoying side-effect of how smoke works to the detriment of the player in the smoke. Smoke used to be better in beta tbh. But BB-whine nerfs made smoke for ambush approach torp runs much harder, now only the Italians can do that and they don't even get to do a devastating strike...).

18 hours ago, OldschoolGaming_YouTube said:

I just don't understand how you go "slightly out of their trajectory" when planes coming at you at 200-300 knots and an average DD do like 30-40? And while you try and turn away you lose a lot of speed. I would say even a Kleber on speed boost will have a hard time doing what you say. 

Do you engage caterpillar-supersonic drive to just zip out of his trajectory or what? Also considering if you are even around 10 km diameter from the planes, even with AA of the plane guy will get a prompt that his squadron is spotted and if he doesn't see a cruiser or a BB he knows 100 % a DD is within that 10 km circle which he can cover with easy in about 10 seconds. 

And "running for island cover in case of spotting"?! He out runs you like 10 times over. What new hybrid DD are you playing? 

 

The way you describe how you play you must have a DD that either go 300 knots or just beem across the map. There is no "if I see planes I just zip over to that island and when planes are gone I just zip out to open water". Do you know how slow and bad maneuverable DDs are in comparison to planes? Also, I would argue most attack squadrons outmaneuvers DDs while pre-sighting even in turns .... because reasons 

Pre-planning pre-emptive routes, seeing where our CV is and expecting a mirror on the other end presents the most likely early scouting routes for enemy aircraft. Most aircraft follow quite predictable trajectories. You don't just storm right ahead straight into where they expect a DD to be and only react to where the aircraft is when you first spot it because you're only concerned with getting in range of your objective, right? ...Right? You do make it look for you? If it wants to find me, it can, it's often only a few hundred meters wide from where he's looking. But it's usualy enough to let it pass by or give it a nasty AA surprise by turning it on while it's passing alongside of me and can't turn to engage without being in my AA range for quite some time.

 

Most the time my early paths take me outside of those early scouting trajectories, so if they get close I only need to make minimal adjustments. It's also nice to lure them into AA of allies, so they can't make more than one pass and if that's not outlined right they'll have to waste time flying over again. Of course this depends on the DD concealment stats and the brains of the CV player (and the appetite to waste time finding me again, usualy they just find a cruiser behind me to attack instead of focusing on DDs as they should) how well that's possible though. It's not a 100% score, but usualy I get where I want to go undetected or only shortly detected after inflicting some losses on the aircraft right before it runs into cruiser AA and can't easily turn to engage me, so I can change course. It would be exageration to say you can't get anywhere to do anything. DDs are still decisive units.

 

Don't make this about absolutes, you know as well as I do that there's no such thing as an absolute in these situations. You also know as well as I do that most CV players are very poor at it. Otherwise the better CV players wouldn't get such excessive winrates.

 

18 hours ago, OldschoolGaming_YouTube said:

There is a huge difference in Premiums and a new tech line that everyone and their grandmother will grind as soon as they get released. There are even players grinding the new IJN light cruiser line even tho its pretty crap so a new line of hybrids that offers BB mains a way to deal with DDs (their biggest threat) will be flooding the servers for sure. 

I dont find my Kearsarge to be weak at all since airstrikes is only something you do while the guns reload, when all other BB players just scratch their head. And there is also a difference in what you consider powerful. Have I had a server record game in Kearsarge, no I haven't, but a glue eater in a Conqueror can get that. But he cant do jack about an harassing DD, KL can find and kill that, so in that way I would say K is way more powerful since damage dont win games.

 

But stats dont always tell the full story. So far the videos ive seen seems pretty good, and they will always have one armament over the regular BBs, so you have to consider the stats for both.

 

A BB that can deal with both of their biggest pests, DDs and CVs ..... naaah why would that be popular.....

If they get mauled by other BBs due to lower DPS, which they will when they're not that good at it, they'll just consider it an option, not the popular option.

18 hours ago, OldschoolGaming_YouTube said:

Its like saying a DD that could submerge and become a submarine whenever he gets radared, hydrod, plane spotted wouldn't be popular.

We don't have any of those though. Subs can submerge (for some time), but can't keep up or engage with guns, so they've got their limits. Hybrids will have their limits as well. Good players will find ways to overcome these limits, bad players might just find it too hard to manage the positioning or overuse the aircraft with poor timing. I'm not too concerned considering the majority of the playerbase is and will always be that poor user. If there's a good player playing it, fairplay to them. If it's going to dominate, it'll be nerfed in damage or the gimmick will otherwise be toned down, making it less popular. It's a tech tree ship, not a premium, so they're going to be very open to nerfs.

[Figment]

On 1/23/2023 at 3:48 PM, OldschoolGaming_YouTube said:

Its like saying a DD that could submerge and become a submarine whenever he gets radared, hydrod, plane spotted wouldn't be popular.

I spoke too soon!
 

 

D:

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Figment said:

I spoke too soon!
 

 

D:

 

Looks like Timmerfranzl finally conquered the world, no?

 

Spoiler

 

[Nibenay78]

20 hours ago, Europizza said:

 

Still waiting for you to support this brainfart of yours with quotes from me. Thanks a bunch man. 

I believe its no so much OP as abnormal-cell-growth-disease.

[Hades_warrior]

23 hours ago, Verblonde said:

For me it was quite entertaining grind to NC. I remember I spend entire day in game just to get those 130k EXP.

[Pukovnik7]

On 1/24/2023 at 1:32 AM, Fediuld said:

So by your definition Tone and Ise are carriers too? 

Yes.

[Rockstone_III]

On 1/22/2023 at 12:51 PM, Pukovnik7 said:

I have already explained the reasoning, which you have clearly missed: the greatest value of a CV is that it can spot targets for his team. Hybrids can do that, therefore they are basically carriers.

This seems to me to be relevant for destroyers mostly. Cruisers and battleships are mostly spotted without the planes.

Why is it though that everytime something that spots destroyers is introduced, people complain. Firstly cruisers with radars, CV's, then subs, then hybrids...  
If it weren't for these spotters, then destroyers would have no problems... and other players would have no chance against destroyers... the occasional plane from hybrids balances out this huge advantage that DD's have...

[Hirohito]

Louisiana already banned from CBs before the line is being implemented in the game, lol.

 

Who would have guessed.. 

 

 

edit

[VedranSeaWolf359]

On 1/22/2023 at 12:21 PM, Pukovnik7 said:

I just looked at the tech tree and saw new US "hybrid battleships".

 

In the battleship tree.

 

This makes no sense whatsoever.

 

In terms of gameplay, fact is that hybrid battleships are primarily carriers. They get all of the CV's greatest strengths - specifically, spotting and the ability to hurt without being hurt back. Fact that they also can come close and engage in a gunfight does not change this.

 

In terms of historical context, only hybrids that were actually fielded were a (pretty desperate) attempt at alleviating the lack of actual carriers in the Japanese Navy post-Midway. And every historian worth his salt counts hybrid battleships as carriers, not battleships.

 

So yes, this shoehorning of hybrids into the battleship tree is idiotic on every level conceivable.

 

I may keep playing this game while they are still in the early access, but if hybrids become too ubiqutous, I'm looking for an alternative.

I play with it on public test, I have two problems with it that it is almost fiction and that I cannot decide which type of planes I can use due my disability bombing and rocket attacks is too difficult to me I don't have fast reflex in hands and I would like to use torpedo bombers with it.

[Redcap375]

Am 26.1.2023 um 16:40, Hirohito sagte:

Louisiana already banned from CBs before the line is being implemented in the game, lol.

 

Who would have guessed.. 

 

edit

 

I was just about to say will it be allowed in CB's.

 

Because if it was (and that would be the far side of stupid), it would be an auto include. Period.

 

@Seraphice would you be so kind and shed some light for us forum peasants the reasons why this well balanced and great addition to the game isn't allowed in a simple competitive gamemode where ALL ships have pros and cons, supposedly? 

 

My simple monkey understanding is that only certain ships, for some unknown reason, are allowed to play where some ships that also have pros and cons (supposedly) and are totally balanced are not...I'm a bit simple to understand the reason why that is?

 

 

[OldschoolGaming_YouTube]

On 1/26/2023 at 1:53 PM, Commander_Rockstone said:

This seems to me to be relevant for destroyers mostly. Cruisers and battleships are mostly spotted without the planes.

Why is it though that everytime something that spots destroyers is introduced, people complain. Firstly cruisers with radars, CV's, then subs, then hybrids...  
If it weren't for these spotters, then destroyers would have no problems... and other players would have no chance against destroyers... the occasional plane from hybrids balances out this huge advantage that DD's have...

 

Could have something to do with the fact that DDs has puny HP and usually no heals and with all the things cramed into this game that can spot a DD its hard for even a Super unicum to avoid it all at all times and getting spotted once in the wrong time (sailing in front of enemy team, smoke on cooldown etc) means you lose half your life, if not all of it.

 

So, sure, give DDs 100 000 HP and 4 heals and we wouldn't complain, but unfortunately that is exclusively for the BBs sitting on the 10 line who take minimal risks. 

 

And every big update brings just more and more things (BS) designed to spot and kill DDs, more hydros for more classes, more radars for more classes, subs, and now more spotting/attacking planes for more classes. Because this is what the holy spreadsheets and silent majority wants. Apparently, we ALL wanted the subs, we just didn't know it yet.

 

And in all this WG in their "Wisdom" crams a mode like Arms Race into random que which forced the DDs to push straight into the middle of the map at start to gain very important buffs or the team loses, which means practically suicide at start, because apparently games didn't end quick enough in T10 randoms as is.....

 

So, DD players don't mind that there is many things that can counter them, they have a problem with the ever-growing amount of BS that WG pushes on them. More and more radars, hydros, planes, enemy DDs, Subs, CVs, forced shitty stupid game modes etc etc. Soon DDs will get airstrike that can fly around and spot and strike as well, hell ... why nor airstrikes for the subs....?!

 

Also, guess which class is responsible for moving that stupid Zeppelin in Air ship escort mode (also announced to soon be added to the Random que)? Yeah, you guessed it! ITS THE DESTROYERS! Who will be pretty much forced to run a gauntlet, perfectly marked lines for both teams to setup perfect ambushes along the way, so all the hydros, radars, DDs, subs, CVs, hybrids etc etc knows EXACTLY where the small HP easy to kill DDs are at all times, if it weren't easy to kill them before....!?!? Meanwhile all the cruisers and BBs will be sailing as far away as possible to "best support their teams...." You already see all Yamatos, Satsumas; Preussen; GK´s etc sailing out of the map in Airship escort and "late game mid circle-Armsrace" modes. (WG why come up with these modes when 80 % of the player base lack brain to understrand them?! May I suggest the shrinking poison circle from PUBG which would force even BBs to play the objective?!  I'm no game developer but ..... THAT gaming company seemed to get it RIGHT!

 

And meanwhile all the cruiser and BB players at T10 whine and cry about DDs die quick in all matches. YOU DONT SAY::::!?! Wonder why? Maybe because the most fragile class in the game has to deal with the most BS and shitty mechanics, cap zones, arms race buffs zones and airship escour marked routes and game modes. They even suck at fighting/hunting submarines even tho they historicly would be perfect for the role, because WG made subs their new "Protected class 2.0", even earns great XP and credits by some hidden multipliers.

 

Every game I play in Kearsarge I use my planes to harass the DD on my flank. Its makes me safe from torps and it usually gets him killed, so then we win that flank and start to flank around the enemys that are on the opposite side, and then I go and spot and harass the DD on that side as well. And after killing the DDs its usually a guaranteed win. Between every harassment flight I shoot a Montana salvo into someone, or maybe even load HE and shoot the DD I spotted and attack with my planes. Something all this new hybrid line can do as well when released.