Hybrid ships do not belong to battleship tree

[Hirohito]

This thread has become a f***ing kindergarten in the level of maturity shown.

[Figment]

6 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

hechanism on hybrids are not conditional....they are just shorter

They are very conditional compared to CV air strikes.

 

- No follow up attacks possible

- No backup aircraft for the assault run (shot down plane is a torp less, thus instant attrition is felt)

- No fighters to deploy for protection or continuous spotting -> can thus also only spot on one location at a time whereas multiple fighters from multiple fighter squadrons can spot multiple areas on top of the active squadron.

- No significant loiter time adviseable -> cuts right into DPS and spotting (trade-off)

- Not always available, thus must be strategically employed rather than spammed

- Cannot keep the ship itself concealed at all times

- Cannot afford to keep the ship at a safe range at all times

 

Pretty big conditions.

[WingedHussar_Adler]

11 minutes ago, Figment said:

They are very conditional compared to CV air strikes.

 

- No follow up attacks possible - well not if there are more hybrids....if you have more of them lts say 3 you can strike every minute or even more frequent - so mechanism is the same 

- No backup aircraft for the assault run (shot down plane is a torp less, thus instant attrition is felt) - that is true...but mechanism is the same...alot of CVs do not strike with full squad

- No fighters to deploy for protection or continuous spotting -> can thus also only spot on one location at a time whereas multiple fighters from multiple fighter squadrons can spot multiple areas on top of the active squadron. - this is true...no fighters, but on other hand it is posible to have 2 or more striking squads on you in ame time which cv can not do

- No significant loiter time adviseable -> cuts right into DPS and spotting (trade-off) - we do not talk about DPS but about mechanism of spoting, shootng roma safe, striking any part of map in minute, chaniging side of strikes if neccecery in minute, striking behind iceland

- Not always available, thus must be strategically employed rather than spammed - agreed...same mechanis but with lesser frequency...how much lesser depends about number of hybrids in game

- Cannot keep the ship itself concealed at all times - in theory yes but it would be idiotic play, agree here

- Cannot afford to keep the ship at a safe range at all times - same as above

 

Pretty big conditions.

it is not condition...condition is when some prerequested things must be met before you can use your mechanic...like t11 BBs need condition to use its "ability"....hybrids can do all their ability but in leser frequency without prerequested conditions

[Figment]

12 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

it is not condition...condition is when some prerequested things must be met before you can use your mechanic...like t11 BBs need condition to use its "ability"....hybrids can do all their ability but in leser frequency without prerequested conditions

No, a conditional thing is when a condition must be met before you find it acceptable. For instance, not a high frequency might be enough of a condition.

 

I'll try to expand on this point a bit in reaction to your reactions. :)

 

[1] well not if there are more hybrids....if you have more of them lts say 3 you can strike every minute or even more frequent - so mechanism is the same 

[2] that is true...but mechanism is the same...alot of CVs do not strike with full squad

[3]  this is true...no fighters, but on other hand it is posible to have 2 or more striking squads on you in ame time which cv can not do

[4] we do not talk about DPS but about mechanism of spoting, shootng roma safe, striking any part of map in minute, chaniging side of strikes if neccecery in minute, striking behind iceland

[5] agreed...same mechanis but with lesser frequency...how much lesser depends about number of hybrids in game

[6]  in theory yes but it would be idiotic play, agree here

[7] same as above

[1] Is you considering a specific scenario and condition: more than one hybrid. Which is fair enough, but also why Europizza stated he didn't think there ought to be more than two hybrids in a match on the same side.

 

[2] Which is why some CVs were more hated than others. Not sure if you recall the RTS CVs that had 4 torpedo bomber squadrons active at the same time. Those might not have been so universally loathed if they had only one torpedo bomber active. Instead, we now got 4 squadrons packed into one group, which alleviates the issue of cross torping a little bit as there is some time between drops (and the drops are typically smaller), but still allows for frequent drops right after one another where it's impossible to dodge.

 

 The condition for acceptance here might just be there being a chance to dodge with skilled play and mitigate the threat in some fashion. So if you can dodge [condition] it's fine. If you can't it's not. That's a condition.

 

So with respect to Europizza's stance: If there's at most two hybrids [condition], it's fine. If there's more, it's not.

 

[3] to [7] from what I read (and some more, like not immediately having air available) alleviate the combination of advantages a regular CV has to such a degree that Europizza does not find it that problematic anymore. Hence given he's fine with one scenario with infrequent aircraft, minimized spotting, etc. this is different from a scenario where's there's all of the above.

 

Hence it's not hypocritical or a double standard: CVs don't make his standard as their combination of mechanics exceed his sense of fairness, whereas hybrids do as their combination of mechanics do not exceed his sense of fairness.

[Pukovnik7]

18 hours ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

fun is subjective category...for some fun is FB arcade style of game, for others it is full col+mplexed games that needs skill

I can have fun with both. I play(ed) World of Warships and War Thunder... and I also play Cold Waters and Rule the Waves.

17 hours ago, stefanorgano said:

 I didn't.

Don't get me wrong: I think CV planespotting is one of the worst things in this game, it makes every match painful and should be limited to minimap only. I also despise hybrids, I think they are a terrible design and their ability to planespotting should be limited to the hybrid ship alone.

 That being said, I don't think hybrids spotting capability is equal to CVs. It's definitely worse. CVs can keep enemies spotted for the whole match virtually, whereas hybrids can only spot before striking or until their squadron is shot down, and then wait minutes before being able to do that again. And honestly, to think that the biggest strength of a hybrid ship is the ability to spot is wrong imo. It's very useful and pretty effective (sadly) but not the most important. I think hybrid BBs are BBs with planes, not CVs with guns. So it's okay to have them in the BB tech tree. At least for me.

Considering a normal battleship cannot spot at all, at best hybrids should be counted as their own class. Limit the matchmaker to a maximum of 1 CV, 1 hybrid and 2 submarines per team, and I will be... not happy, but reasonably satisfied.

[Figment]

1 minute ago, Pukovnik7 said:

Considering a normal battleship cannot spot at all, at best hybrids should be counted as their own class. Limit the matchmaker to a maximum of 1 CV, 1 hybrid and 2 submarines per team, and I will be... not happy, but reasonably satisfied.

In terms of MM, I'd prefer the situation below and to have on each side an equal amount of these.

 

Carriers and subs

- 2 subs

- 2 CV

- 1 CV + 1 sub

- 1 CV + 2 subs, at the cost of a BB slot

 

For BBs, for a max total of 6 BBs:

 

- Radar BB matched to hybrid

- Hybrid matched to hybrid

- Battlecruiser matched to Battlecruiser

 

Cruisers [unlimited number]:

- Radar cruiser matched to radar cruiser

- Radar cruiser matched to hybrid cruiser

 

DD [max of 5 a side]:
- Radar DD matched to radar DD

 

Special case late night:

- Light cruiser matched to gunboat DD

 

But overall it's doable as is.

[WingedHussar_Adler]

15 minutes ago, Figment said:

 

 

Hence it's not hypocritical or a double standard: CVs don't make his standard as their combination of mechanics exceed his sense of fairness, whereas hybrids do as their combination of mechanics do not exceed his sense of fairness.

i get his point..he like and will play hybrid so they are OK, he does not like and play CV so they are not OK....this is long story short.

FDR can attack every 30 seconds or so....so he is as close to more hybrids than enithy other CVs....i did not see that he has less objections than other cvs.....

[WingedHussar_Adler]

5 minutes ago, Figment said:

In terms of MM, I'd prefer the situation below and to have on each side an equal amount of these.

 

Carriers and subs

- 2 subs

- 2 CV

- 1 CV + 1 sub

- 1 CV + 2 subs, at the cost of a BB slot

 

For BBs, for a max total of 6 BBs:

 

- Radar BB matched to hybrid

- Hybrid matched to hybrid

- Battlecruiser matched to Battlecruiser

 

Cruisers [unlimited number]:

- Radar cruiser matched to radar cruiser

- Radar cruiser matched to hybrid cruiser

 

DD [max of 5 a side]:
- Radar DD matched to radar DD

 

Special case late night:

- Light cruiser matched to gunboat DD

 

But overall it's doable as is.

My view on this pont

- 1 cv acros all tiers - hard cap

- subs no hard cap

- Hybrids no hard cap

- rest no hard cap.

 

[OldschoolGaming_YouTube]

1 hour ago, Figment said:

I'd not mind taking that on with Friesland/Groningen, Oland, French DDs and some Germans. If you can force a first pass on them you (while not exposed to enemy fire - plan for that in your route - you can kill half their squadron before they can try to line up on you, often killing them before they drop anything. I've lived through matches with 6 RTS carriers a side. Think we can handle some hybrids. :)

Freisland, Groningen and Östergötland might be exempt. I think Öland is a question mark and French and Germans ever bigger so. I think maybe 5 % of all the DDs in the game might have less inconvenience from all these planes, rest 95 % will struggle. Most torp based DDs and a lot of even gun based will kill jack sheiit from the squadrons while their doing doughnuts in the air above you.

 

Also where do you see the DD being where he doesn't take damage while perma spotted by circling planes? Is he sitting in spawn? In most cases where Kearsarge or CV happens to stumble upon my position im usually closer then 10 km to the enemy fleet (for my torps to be useful at all) and then if you smoke is on cooldown you are FUBAR:ed. If you have smoke, then you will use it but then its not hard for the plane-guy to coordinate an attack on your smoke with a radarcruiser or even a long-range hydro DD, because your smoke doesn't last long and you cant outrun planes spotting. 

[Figment]

7 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

i get his point..he like and will play hybrid so they are OK, he does not like and play CV so they are not OK....this is long story short.

You exclude his "because" though. He's made it clear he's got a reasoning and set a boundary on when he considers it unbalanced. These variables on frequency of using air a single squadron being fine and the max amount of hybrids involved is stating a far more nuanced position than stating "I like the playstyle, thus it's fine" which you make of it.

 

Saying it's just personal preference without any sort of conditional frame of reference is not a fair representation of his position.

 

[WingedHussar_Adler]

1 minute ago, Figment said:

You exclude his "because" though. He's made it clear he's got a reasoning and set a boundary on when he considers it unbalanced. These variables on frequency of using air a single squadron being fine and the max amount of hybrids involved is stating a far more nuanced position than stating "I like the playstyle, thus it's fine" which you make of it.

 

Saying it's just personal preference without any sort of conditional frame of reference is not a fair representation of his position.

 

but right now there is no cap on hybrids....so right now, in his words, they should be unbalanced

[Figment]

2 minutes ago, OldschoolGaming_YouTube said:

Also where do you see the DD being where he doesn't take damage while perma spotted by circling planes?

These hybrid based squadrons tend to last as long as a fighter squadron, so I just turn on AA in these situations. Perma spotted is an exageration, radar lasts longer in my experience (though it can be intermittent spotting if they're on the edge of AA).

2 minutes ago, OldschoolGaming_YouTube said:

Is he sitting in spawn? In most cases where Kearsarge or CV happens to stumble upon my position im usually closer then 10 km to the enemy fleet (for my torps to be useful at all) and then if you smoke is on cooldown you are FUBAR:ed. If you have smoke, then you will use it but then its not hard for the plane-guy to coordinate an attack on your smoke with a radarcruiser or even a long-range hydro DD, because your smoke doesn't last long and you cant outrun planes spotting. 

I try to go for islands when I see a plane taking off, in order to block the line of sight of as many enemy turrets as possible asap. Most the time I've encountered Tone or Kearsage I'd be able to limit it to 2-3 enemies that might fire at me at once.

 

In open water (especially Ocean) this is a bigger concern, so you would have to be near your max range. For a torp DD that can be problematic indeed, but then it's still better than facing a CV or radar cruiser instead (multi-radars near one another is just an incredible pain to get by, especially if they also have hydro on top of that).

[Figment]

4 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

but right now there is no cap on hybrids....so right now, in his words, they should be unbalanced

Yes and no:

 

Yes, he said: when there's more than two right now, it's unbalanced.

No, he said: when there's no more than two right now, it's fine.

[WingedHussar_Adler]

Just now, Figment said:

Yes and no:

 

Yes, he said: when there's more than two right now, it's unbalanced.

No, he said: when there's no more than two right now, it's fine.

in your experience, when there are new branch of BBs...is there ussualy more or less of them per game in first couple of months?

[OldschoolGaming_YouTube]

4 minutes ago, Figment said:

These hybrid based squadrons tend to last as long as a fighter squadron, so I just turn on AA in these situations. Perma spotted is an exageration, radar lasts longer in my experience (though it can be intermittent spotting if they're on the edge of AA).

I try to go for islands when I see a plane taking off, in order to block the line of sight of as many enemy turrets as possible asap. Most the time I've encountered Tone or Kearsage I'd be able to limit it to 2-3 enemies that might fire at me at once.

Thats not my experience playing Kearsarge, then its usually one of the forementioned AA DDs that's there, but those you never go for anyways. Most of the DDs can do very little to the attack squadron and specially if you circle around his sectors and go in and out of his puny AA. Meanwhile he is tap dancing like a maniac between incoming HE salvos.

 

What do you mean with "See a plane taking of"? Usually when you spot a plane its to late to do anything, because hes seconds away from spotting you, and if you mean you hugg an island every time you see a plane spotted on your half of the minimap, im guessing you dont get much done, since they go in and out all the time on the minimap, and soon we will have maybe 300 % more planes flying around.

 

Also hugging islands isn't really a good tactic for DDs since you dont spot as well, you cant hardly torp anything and also a great chance to be surprised by a gunboat DD coming around the corner or a hydro or a radar. Mostly I like to be in open water so I can spot, torp, see at least some of the pushing threats, but planes have always been a thing you cant outplay with skill because they have all the advantage, and you almost no counterplay.

 

4 minutes ago, Figment said:

In open water (especially Ocean) this is a bigger concern, so you would have to be near your max range. For a torp DD that can be problematic indeed, but then it's still better than facing a CV or radar cruiser instead (multi-radars near one another is just an incredible pain to get by, especially if they also have hydro on top of that).

 

Problem is that all we are discussing now (new Hybrids), you WILL be facing WITH ALL the CVs and radar cruisers, DDs, BBs and a topping of subs. So, it's not really a case of "Pick your poison" because you will get ALL the poison!

 

Hense my suggestion that this might be the year WG kills of DDs. 

 

I know for a fact that I will be playing way less DDs in the future, just too much hassle, mechanics and ships that are designed to ruin your match no matter what skill level you have. Better time to play all the OP/Broken sheeit instead and some CV ..... and probably a whole lot of Hybrid BBs.

 

[Figment]

Just now, WingedHussar_Adler said:

in your experience, when there are new branch of BBs...is there ussualy more or less of them per game in first couple of months?

More.

 

Which is something that Europizza says might cause balancing issues.

 

His point is that the design, under his given conditions including of max 2 per side, would be fair enough and fun.

[Figment]

15 minutes ago, OldschoolGaming_YouTube said:

Thats not my experience playing Kearsarge, then its usually one of the forementioned AA DDs that's there, but those you never go for anyways. Most of the DDs can do very little to the attack squadron and specially if you circle around his sectors and go in and out of his puny AA. Meanwhile he is tap dancing like a maniac between incoming HE salvos.

I do wonder when they turn the AA on and off though.

Quote

What do you mean with "See a plane taking of"? Usually when you spot a plane its to late to do anything, because hes seconds away from spotting you, and if you mean you hugg an island every time you see a plane spotted on your half of the minimap, im guessing you dont get much done, since they go in and out all the time on the minimap, and soon we will have maybe 300 % more planes flying around.

 

Also hugging islands isn't really a good tactic for DDs since you dont spot as well, you cant hardly torp anything and also a great chance to be surprised by a gunboat DD coming around the corner or a hydro or a radar. Mostly I like to be in open water so I can spot, torp, see at least some of the pushing threats, but planes have always been a thing you cant outplay with skill because they have all the advantage, and you almost no counterplay.

Neither. When I see a plane coming my way (CV or otherwise), I go slightly out of its likely trajectory, with the option of running for island cover in case of spotting. As long as I don't need to go in between islands, I don't and thus keep full line of sight of everything. When I do have to hide it's only very temporarily, why would I be hugging that island constantly? By going for islands, I will try to force a turn overhead by going close enough to an island that you're in my AA range for a longer period of time as you can't make a proper approach through cover unless you got dive bombers.

 

Hence these periods of sticking close to islands are short and deliberate.

Quote

Problem is that all we are discussing now (new Hybrids), you WILL be facing WITH ALL the CVs and radar cruisers, DDs, BBs and a topping of subs. So, it's not really a case of "Pick your poison" because you will get ALL the poison!

Likely, but we've seen a period where Kearsarge and Tone were introduced and tbh that didn't matter all that much and right now the Kearsage and Tone aren't overused despite having been available for some time. Of course, Tone and Kearsarge (B) are premium ships to be bought with gold and not a tech tree ship, so that might give rise to more of these. But all in all I find these ships to be weaker and worse played than regular BBs and cruisers, with massive exploitable downtime.

 

But their stats are pretty average for ships in their tier.

 

I don't think they'll be able to match firepower as easily, so won't be that popular in the long run.

Quote

Hense my suggestion that this might be the year WG kills of DDs.

Nah.

[WingedHussar_Adler]

16 minutes ago, Figment said:

More.

 

Which is something that Europizza says might cause balancing issues.

 

His point is that the design, under his given conditions including of max 2 per side, would be fair enough and fun.

would be but they are not right now, right?

So in fact they are not balanced right now? But we are not talking about that inbalance right?

you do not see different aproach here? in CV topic we ar talking how they are inbalanced due to xyz factor....and here we are not talking how they are infact inbaalnced (if they are) but how they are fun and COULD BE balanced if something...:)

 

p.s.

Dutch bombers do not spot......why hybrid planes spot?

[NewHorizons_1]

43 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

p.s.

Dutch bombers do not spot......why hybrid planes spot?

ASW air-strike squadrons also do not spot either.

Just a thought ... maybe the only planes that can spot should, oh I dunno, be spotter planes?

It would at least give them their namesake role, instead of just a range extender.

 

Kinda of a shame WG hasn't yet followed through with the proposed "planes** only spot ships on the mini-map" change.

It would have been interesting to see how it affected gameplay, and might have defused some of the antagonism against plane carrying ships.

 

** That change could have been constrained to fighters & attack aircraft.

 

[Figment]

43 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

would be but they are not right now, right?

So in fact they are not balanced right now? But we are not talking about that inbalance right?

That's what he says. He is talking about that inbalance, you're suggesting he's not because he finds the playstyle of the hybrids enjoyable. But he never said he finds an overdose of hybrids enjoyable.

Quote

you do not see different aproach here? in CV topic we ar talking how they are inbalanced due to xyz factor....and here we are not talking how they are infact inbaalnced (if they are) but how they are fun and COULD BE balanced if something...:)

That's exactly how a lot of people approach CVs in those discussions (same for subs). A lot of other people however are either tired of debating with zero action from WG and just opt for removal, or just don't want to see these mechanics at all and will argue the same against hybrids (and have done so against Dutch air strikes for various reasons).

 

There's a difference between having a discussion on how to balance one and whether or not one should have a certain mechanic. But one might argue in favour of the same mechanic under a different set of circumstances, which is basically what Europizza does here.

Quote

p.s.

Dutch bombers do not spot......why hybrid planes spot?

Because they're directly controlled by the player and are operated just like the CV planes. The Dutch aircraft are operated like ASW aircraft (and more like the old RTS strikes as they're pre-fixed attacks that can't be adjusted last minute).

 

That's a design choice by WG, ask them.

[Hirohito]

Ah, now I remember where I had seen that Figment fellow before.

He was the keyboard warrior spamming a wall of text every 5 minutes last year, claiming that subs are fine and have lots of counterplay, because "just ambush them in a DD".

 

Should have learned my lesson and blocked him much earlier instead of taking the bait from a player who cant fails to reach 50% solo in T10 randoms, yet speaks with much authority on different matters regarding balance.

[WingedHussar_Adler]

14 minutes ago, Figment said:

discussion on how to balance one and whether or not one should have a certain mechanic. But one might argue in favour of the same mechanic under a different set of circumstances, which is basically what Europizza does here.

Because they're directly controlled by the player and are operated just like the CV planes. The Dutch aircraft are operated like ASW aircraft (and more like the old RTS strikes as they're pre-fixed attacks that can't be adjusted last minute).

 

That's a design choice by WG, ask them.

Spoter or fighters are not controled by player but theys do spot..dont they?

[Figment]

20 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

Spoter or fighters are not controled by player but theys do spot..dont they?

Again, design decision by WG. It's not consistent, no. Spotters do extend range, whereas other aircraft do not. These are all separate mechanics and variables WG can assign and change between units after all "for balancing sake". It's a game, it doesn't have to be consistent between units, as long as it is consistent for a unit.

25 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

Ah, now I remember where I had seen that Figment fellow before.

He was the keyboard warrior spamming a wall of text every 5 minutes last year, claiming that subs are fine and have lots of counterplay, because "just ambush them in a DD".

 

Should have learned my lesson and blocked him much earlier instead of taking the bait from a player who cant fails to reach 50% solo in T10 randoms, yet speaks with much authority on different matters regarding balance.

Shame you never took the time to read one then, since I never said subs are fine... I even made at least three or four separate topics on redesigning specific elements of them... Just that there's significant amounts of counterplay and there's thus exageration when people say it's impossible to counter or survive a sub...

 

But hey, context...

 

Hiro, if you want to ignore, why don't you actually ignore, but come back with character assassination attempts, intimidation attempts and swearing and then having the audacity to complain about the maturity of other people? Bloody hell.

[WingedHussar_Adler]

7 minutes ago, Figment said:

Again, design decision by WG. It's not consistent, no. Spotters do extend range, whereas other aircraft do not. These are all separate mechanics and variables WG can assign and change between units after all "for balancing sake". It's a game, it doesn't have to be consistent between units, as long as it is consistent for a unit.

 

Totaly agree....but lets go back to CV discusion where most cryers insisted on change how spoting work on CV, but same mechanic is ok on hybrids?

back to

i like it = its ok an balanced

i do not like it = nerf/ op / remove

 

[Figment]

1 minute ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

Totaly agree....but lets go back to CV discusion where most cryers insisted on change how spoting work on CV, but same mechanic is ok on hybrids?

back to

i like it = its ok an balanced

i do not like it = nerf/ op / remove

But that mechanic is not standalone the same for hybrids and CV as they're tied to the platform of origin.

 

It's part of a wider context. For instance, this spotting might be okay once every X minutes, but not every Y minutes.

 

 

 

Think of it this way:

 

A ship with radar with a 1 min cooldown, lasting five minutes at 15km range

 

vs

 

A ship with radar on a 3 min cooldown, lasting 30s at 8km range

 

 

 

Both working exactly the same way in mechanics, the only things changed are the durations and frequency.

 

 

Do you not think there'd be more opposition to the radar gimmick in the first situation than in the second? There's just no direct comparison because of the combination of variables having changed.