[AMOC] NewHorizons_1 [AMOC] Players 3,860 posts 46,899 battles Report post #26 Posted January 17 2 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said: What I meant is that I see the GL from time to time but very rarely the lower tiers ... so people clearly played through them as they have the GL but don't feel like playing them ... The T6 Kijkduin & 7 Eendracht CLs are quite good in co-op. The T8 CA Haarlem was completely underwhelming though. No idea about the T9 as I skipped it after getting fed up with Haarlem Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[BLING] Cammo1962 [BLING] Players 2,468 posts 25,257 battles Report post #27 Posted January 17 9 minutes ago, NewHorizons_1 said: The T6 Kijkduin & 7 Eendracht CLs are quite good in co-op. The T8 CA Haarlem was completely underwhelming though. No idea about the T9 as I skipped it after getting fed up with Haarlem Tier 9 and 10 is not bad 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[PEZ] Yedwy Players 11,301 posts 39,586 battles Report post #28 Posted January 17 Tbh way I see Yodo is - 18 rolls for a fire each salvo as in - start fire, start another fire, watch the target DCP then start some more fires and change target, repeat… Occasionally get a torp or two into somebody for some alpha pop and flooding bonus… Same gameplay as most kiting or island hugging HE spammers… New? No… Exciting? Not really… Effective for farming damage? Sure if you manage not to get blapped… Worth grinding out if you already have 10 other ships like that lined up? Prob not… Worth replacing ones Thunderer/Conquerer for re*tarded fire damage farming competitions? Hell no… Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Figment Beta Tester 3,801 posts 10,499 battles Report post #29 Posted January 17 57 minutes ago, NewHorizons_1 said: The T6 Kijkduin & 7 Eendracht CLs are quite good in co-op. The T8 CA Haarlem was completely underwhelming though. No idea about the T9 as I skipped it after getting fed up with Haarlem Haarlem is fine. Little bit of a range issue, but generally I did much better on that than the T9, though I finally got the hang of that one now too. All in all they're all competitive ships if you use them well. 1 hour ago, Hugh_Ruka said: What I meant is that I see the GL from time to time but very rarely the lower tiers ... so people clearly played through them as they have the GL but don't feel like playing them ... Weird, I come across them virtually every two matches. They're not Shimakaze frequency, but it's rare for me to not see a Dutch ship on my side or enemy side in two matches or so. Especially see quite a few Celebes, Kijkduins, Eendrachts and GL. I think most people do move on to the Tier X with their one commander though. (Just got my first ever 21pt commander on GL btw. Trained from 10pts on the GL and from 19pts also on Tromp). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[LOKTR] Viridem Players 381 posts 13,270 battles Report post #30 Posted January 17 "Ship X sucks" People who haven't played ship X People were crapping on the whole line, and Tokachi as well, before even touching it. Turns out Tokachi is a super fine ship, and the line has at least one great ship, the Gokase. Flamu is often right, but it doesn't mean he's always right, nor isn't prone to drama queen mode... Remember Harekaze II: he looked at the ship in port, basically said "Lol no" and moved on after a minute or so. -2 sigma from median IQ move. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[PEZ] Yedwy Players 11,301 posts 39,586 battles Report post #31 Posted January 17 2 hours ago, Viridem said: and the line has at least one great ship, the Gokase. By what metric exatcly is she a great ship? On wows nbumbers she is 3rd from the bottom in overall WR and damage as well as far as I can see, hardly a hallmark of greatness esp for a brand new EA boat... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CG] Redcap375 Players 4,371 posts 15,295 battles Report post #32 Posted January 17 9 hours ago, Yedwy said: Tbh way I see Yodo is - 18 rolls for a fire each salvo as in - start fire, start another fire, watch the target DCP then start some more fires and change target, repeat… Occasionally get a torp or two into somebody for some alpha pop and flooding bonus… Same gameplay as most kiting or island hugging HE spammers… New? No… Exciting? Not really… Effective for farming damage? Sure if you manage not to get blapped… Worth grinding out if you already have 10 other ships like that lined up? Prob not… Worth replacing ones Thunderer/Conquerer for re*tarded fire damage farming competitions? Hell no… Your right and That's the problem, so does the smolly, Colbert, Woster, austin, Jinan ect...all of which do the "fire thing" much better. Only those have something else to also count on either smoke, deep water torps, reload boosters, radar, much much better reload, better wiggling and a smaller cit ect. HE spammers are completely white noise now, there are too many good ones which leaves these ships in the dirt. Hell if you want a heavy HE alpha, pick the bloody goliath 1 hour ago, Yedwy said: By what metric exatcly is she a great ship? On wows nbumbers she is 3rd from the bottom in overall WR and damage as well as far as I can see, hardly a hallmark of greatness esp for a brand new EA boat... Spot on. History in this game has shown that good ships that last the test of time start out average to strongish on the stats when released. This is a dead duck, deprived of life before it had a chance. If it struggles to make an impact now, you know it's only going to go one way when the masses get their hands on it. Really expect some buffs coming soon. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[LOKTR] Viridem Players 381 posts 13,270 battles Report post #33 Posted January 17 2 hours ago, Yedwy said: By what metric exatcly is she a great ship? On wows nbumbers she is 3rd from the bottom in overall WR and damage as well as far as I can see, hardly a hallmark of greatness esp for a brand new EA boat... "Gokase sucks" Guy who hasn't played Gokase By what metric ? By my own experience in more than 100 battles, with very good results (take a look at the leaderboard...) On wows numbers, if you rank the ship by the top 25% or 10% players, you'll see she's right in the middle. A bit lower with the top 50% or top 5%. In my experience Gokase has a high skill floor. The average potato will struggle to do anything apart from dying quick. I think that's why she is so low on average. If you cull out the potatoes, you get stats more representative of the ship's true potential. The stats seem to go along with my impression. And by "great", I don't mean only "performs well", I also mean fun. She's the second fastest cruiser in the game of all tiers (without speed boost). It's super fun to sail around at 39 knots in a cruiser, you know ? You can't take stats out of context, you'll only get wrong conclusions. Look at Moskva's average stats, and come tell me she's a mediocre ship... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[R7S] Wulf_Ace Players 2,179 posts 12,302 battles Report post #34 Posted January 17 I like Omono and I am not a fan of light cruisers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Figment Beta Tester 3,801 posts 10,499 battles Report post #35 Posted January 17 1 hour ago, Viridem said: You can't take stats out of context, you'll only get wrong conclusions. Look at Moskva's average stats, and come tell me she's a mediocre ship... The fact that a ship is considered good probably attracts more bad players hoping for a tool to provide the winning edge for them, mastering a ship that has weaknesses to off-set the pros is a different thing. What do a lot of players think of Kansas? "Horrible" third lowest winrate of all BB at its tier at 49.90%. I've heard lots of tales about it being completely impossible to play competitively with. Same for a lot of other hard hitting alpha, but poor accuracy, low rof, long range capable ships. That's because people don't use it right. There's also a lot of people who get 75% WR in it. I got about 59% with it. And that's only because I started out using it with a bad captain at long range and firing all shots at the same time at a lead of 15s, missing the entire volley often and guaranteeing a long time with a DPS of 0. When I changed tactics, getting closer, firing in sequence, my WR improved rapidly. I'm quite sure that these new IJN cruisers are often used firing all guns at once, people showing too much broadside to force being able to use the torpedoes at the wrong timing, creating either a good or a bad volley or an opportunity to get killed, rather than angling proper, firing in sequence to optimize the accuracy and avoid being without firepower and a huge exposure time, due to a low rate of fire. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CG] Redcap375 Players 4,371 posts 15,295 battles Report post #36 Posted January 17 13 hours ago, Viridem said: You can't take stats out of context, you'll only get wrong conclusions. Look at Moskva's average stats, and come tell me she's a mediocre ship... When the Moskva first came out, she was top 3 for a long time. When the masses got hold of her, the stats have been dropping ever since. She is the 5th most played ship in the whole game and still comes above Zao, Hindy ect..That is a sign of a GOOD ship. However, Other ships that start bad, drop even further when the "masses" get hold of it. So the fact that the Yolo(lol) started very bad isn't a good sign. The Belfast came out very strong and has been at the top of the tier 7 cruiser leader board ever since, never moved and that was back in 2016! The Colombo came into the game P*** poor and guess where it is now? Still in the bottom 4. So come back into this thread in a years time and I bet my mortgage that the Yolo will STILL be bottom 1/3 if "stats out of context". Stats "do" give context. 11 hours ago, Figment said: What do a lot of players think of Kansas? "Horrible" third lowest winrate of all BB at its tier at 49.90%. I've heard lots of tales about it being completely impossible to play competitively with. Same for a lot of other hard hitting alpha, but poor accuracy, low rof, long range capable ships. That's because people don't use it right. Lol, even WG thought the Kansas was so bad that they gave it a buff. Another example of a ship that started low and has stayed there. You might like it, but all things being equal (and that's the crunch of it) you will be murdered by 3/4 of the other BB's in that tier, even the bloody Tirpitz god bless his soul. On 1/17/2023 at 10:57 AM, Cammo1962 said: Tier 9 and 10 is not bad And I respect your opinion but... I do more damage AND PR in my tier 6 Rahmat than your tier 9, which is considered a bad ship. So you saying "it's not bad" forgive me for bringing it back down to earth mate. The Takahashi (tier 9) has started middle for WR and bottom 1/3 for damage and considering all those underneath are broadline trash, it' gonna stay down there especially with tier 11 in the MM. Lucky for the Takahashi it's going to be hard to go even lower. The Tokachi (tier 7) needs some serious mouth to mouth. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[LOKTR] Viridem Players 381 posts 13,270 battles Report post #37 Posted January 18 @Redcap375 I'm talking about Gokase, a ship "the masses" already got their hands on... You haven't played a single match in these cruisers. All you do is making assumptions about ships you haven't played by taking stats with little context, other than "the ship is new". Stats do not give context. Now I understand why you compared this guy's stats in the Johan to yours in the Rhamat, in which you have ONE solo game... Have you heard the term "statistically significant"? Oh, and since I'm here. (I wanted to reply to an earlier post, but the site bugged out and I lost my message, so I gave up at the time). But: contrary to what you said, Yodo, as well as Shimanto and Takahashi, do NOT need IFHE to pen 30mm. It's easily available data. And while the ships weren't announced with these characteristics at first, it was very quickly recognized as an error in the dev blog and corrected. Finally: And I respect your opinion but... I have better WR and do more damage AND PR in my tier 6 Gokase than your tier 7 Belfast. Belfast is considered an OP ship. So you saying "it's bad" forgive me for bringing it back down to earth mate. I hope you'll apreciate the irony... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[BREW] Bland_42 Players 751 posts 10,864 battles Report post #38 Posted January 18 10 ore fa, Figment ha scritto: ..... firing all guns at once ..... firing in sequence to optimize the accuracy ..... About this, I was always curious if we have any information about how the game will give out the precision of the different ways of firing. Here I don't ask about sensations and feelings, but if somewhere there is some technical explanation on how the thing work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Figment Beta Tester 3,801 posts 10,499 battles Report post #39 Posted January 18 21 minutes ago, Bland_42 said: About this, I was always curious if we have any information about how the game will give out the precision of the different ways of firing. Here I don't ask about sensations and feelings, but if somewhere there is some technical explanation on how the thing work. Works the same, difference is if you fire in sequence you can adjust your lead. :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[BREW] Bland_42 Players 751 posts 10,864 battles Report post #40 Posted January 18 1 minuto fa, Figment ha scritto: Works the same, difference is if you fire in sequence you can adjust your lead. :) Ok, then you mean firing the first shot (turret) to see the lead and then the others on the correct target. Thats surely a good way to aim (I still struggle to adapt myself sometimes). In my question I was thinking about the difference between firing a complete salvo with a double click (simultaneous fire) or a prolonged pression (sequential fire). About this, the game don't make differences, correct? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[NWP] Ubertron_X [NWP] Beta Tester 2,657 posts 25,744 battles Report post #41 Posted January 18 16 minutes ago, Bland_42 said: Ok, then you mean firing the first shot (turret) to see the lead and then the others on the correct target. Thats surely a good way to aim (I still struggle to adapt myself sometimes). In my question I was thinking about the difference between firing a complete salvo with a double click (simultaneous fire) or a prolonged pression (sequential fire). About this, the game don't make differences, correct? Hard to say with the amount of gunnery bugs that to this very day still plague the game: Target in front of an island, target selection delay making shell either go to low or high, manual firing speed versus sequential firing speed etc., who knows... If your shells have long flight times it might be beneficial to do a ranging shot with one turret to check your lead, however this kind of "announcment" will most probably ruin any chances for devastating strikes to unsuspecting targets as well as keep you spotted for longer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Figment Beta Tester 3,801 posts 10,499 battles Report post #42 Posted January 18 16 minutes ago, Ubertron_X said: If your shells have long flight times it might be beneficial to do a ranging shot with one turret to check your lead, however this kind of "announcment" will most probably ruin any chances for devastating strikes to unsuspecting targets as well as keep you spotted for longer. With a concealment range of 13-15+km you should assume to be spotted anyway. So to me that doesn't really change things. That reload of 40s is best divided up over several turrets for if you miss or a different target shows up you'll be defenseless for that entire period of time with 0 DPS. Especially if you encounter destroyers, getting the lead right and adjusting where needed is far more important than hoping to get the lead right in one go and hoping to blast the DD on the first click. But with a 15s lead for instance, getting it right matters. You don't have to wait for it to land to see if it's going to make it on target or not, otherwise that's a lot of extra time you'll lose. 5-6s is fine. You'll only aim for slow, big targets anyway, so if you see there's a course correction that second volley ought to be more accurate regardless as those course corrections are typically committed moves. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[WG] Seraphice WG Staff 1,664 posts 7,808 battles Report post #43 Posted January 18 Hey all, I see that there is a lot of talk about the new IJN CLs, which is great, but it's always worth keeping in mind that overall ship statistics from wows-numbers are not a very accurate way to judge a ship's performance. Fair seas captain! ~Sera 2 2 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[BREW] Bland_42 Players 751 posts 10,864 battles Report post #44 Posted January 18 1 ora fa, Bland_42 ha scritto: Ok, then you mean firing the first shot (turret) to see the lead and then the others on the correct target. Thats surely a good way to aim (I still struggle to adapt myself sometimes). In my question I was thinking about the difference between firing a complete salvo with a double click (simultaneous fire) or a prolonged pression (sequential fire). About this, the game don't make differences, correct? @Seraphice seeing you commenting here, I take the chance to ask you if you can answer about my doubt expressed in the last lines of my post above. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[PEZ] Yedwy Players 11,301 posts 39,586 battles Report post #45 Posted January 18 1 hour ago, Seraphice said: Hey all, I see that there is a lot of talk about the new IJN CLs, which is great, but it's always worth keeping in mind that overall ship statistics from wows-numbers are not a very accurate way to judge a ship's performance. Fair seas captain! ~Sera True but I will take a punt that my 40k battles give me a reasonable level of perspective on interpreting stuff such as reload, hp, armor etc and how the ship will feel… 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[WG] Seraphice WG Staff 1,664 posts 7,808 battles Report post #46 Posted January 18 49 minutes ago, Bland_42 said: @Seraphice seeing you commenting here, I take the chance to ask you if you can answer about my doubt expressed in the last lines of my post above. It technically makes no difference as all shots fired are calculated per-turret anyway, so shooting individually or per salvo does not matter. Fair seas captain! ~Sera 3 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[-SBG-] ColonelPete Players 38,559 posts 19,177 battles Report post #47 Posted January 18 1 hour ago, Seraphice said: Hey all, I see that there is a lot of talk about the new IJN CLs, which is great, but it's always worth keeping in mind that overall ship statistics from wows-numbers are not a very accurate way to judge a ship's performance. Fair seas captain! ~Sera From playing the Tier V and VI I can assure you that these two are not much fun. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[BREW] Bland_42 Players 751 posts 10,864 battles Report post #48 Posted January 18 41 minuti fa, Seraphice ha scritto: It technically makes no difference as all shots fired are calculated per-turret anyway, so shooting individually or per salvo does not matter. Fair seas captain! ~Sera Thanks a lot, much appreciated. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CG] Redcap375 Players 4,371 posts 15,295 battles Report post #49 Posted January 18 11 hours ago, Viridem said: @Redcap375 I'm talking about Gokase, a ship "the masses" already got their hands on... You haven't played a single match in these cruisers. All you do is making assumptions about ships you haven't played by taking stats with little context, other than "the ship is new". Stats do not give context. Now I understand why you compared this guy's stats in the Johan to yours in the Rhamat, in which you have ONE solo game... Have you heard the term "statistically significant"? Oh, and since I'm here. (I wanted to reply to an earlier post, but the site bugged out and I lost my message, so I gave up at the time). But: contrary to what you said, Yodo, as well as Shimanto and Takahashi, do NOT need IFHE to pen 30mm. It's easily available data. And while the ships weren't announced with these characteristics at first, it was very quickly recognized as an error in the dev blog and corrected. Finally: And I respect your opinion but... I have better WR and do more damage AND PR in my tier 6 Gokase than your tier 7 Belfast. Belfast is considered an OP ship. So you saying "it's bad" forgive me for bringing it back down to earth mate. I hope you'll apreciate the irony... Did you miss the part about tier 6 and 9 being 3 MM apart? No irony required. The Austin is a very high skill ceiling ship yet still remains in the top 4 after it landed (because it is a good ship). So the fact that you said the Gokase has a high skill ceiling *check, potatoes will struggle *check but enters the board close to last (humm), doesn't look very good does it? The new IJN line is bad, but glad you like it and think they preform well. 16 hours ago, Viridem said: On wows numbers, if you rank the ship by the top 25% or 10% players, you'll see she's right in the middle. A bit lower with the top 50% or top 5%. And you do realise that's not a good sign right? But anyway, lets see how the lines goes shall we. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[LOKTR] Viridem Players 381 posts 13,270 battles Report post #50 Posted January 18 8 minutes ago, Redcap375 said: Did you miss the part about tier 6 and 9 being 3 MM apart? Everything went above your head, faaar above it, didn't it? 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
