British Heavy Cruisers and How To Make Them Better?

[Miscommunication_dept]

17 hours ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said:

I'm all for buffing Gibraltar. Say... british radar option?

Getting rid of that step in the citadel? Stronger Belt? Faster reload?

All of the above!

 

To be honest, with that AP a radar option would make it a DD killer.

 

My preference would be armour and a bit of dpm. Perhaps with increased penetration.

 

[_Keiban_]

Goliath isn't nearly as bad as you make it appear here.

HP for example, there aren't that many with more HP then Goliath, and those existing are super-heavy cruisers like Stalingrad, PR, Marseille that are a) larger and b) have 60s fire duration.

And while range certainly isn't great, i wouldn't call it "ludicrously short", it's still better then for example Gouden, Napoli or Zao. Would still recommend Range mod.

Together with Prop Mod and the Superheal,  you can tank a lot. >3k potential damage isn't uncommon. That and the very good HE pen make her a good kiting HE farmer. You can get good/decent games out of it:

 2.8k bxp, 3.2m potential

 2.2k bxp, 3.8m potential

 

[invicta2012]

On 1/8/2023 at 7:46 PM, Nibenay78 said:

Italian - icebreaker? 

Yes - see below. Because we were comparing KGV to other ships of the same Tier, I looked at the armour model for Frankie C, and this is what I saw....

 

[LiveWire___]

On 1/6/2023 at 3:49 PM, FloatingTarget said:

First off, let me open this up with an apology, I have been quite rude and spikey if you will, frustration can do that. I will be looking to improve my behaviour and not be so harsh. I am getting the hang of the Daring. However...

 

My current gripe is with British Heavy Cruisers. At least I know this is a subject other will agree with me on.

 

With British Destroyers, Light Cruisers (despite them being giant citadels) and Battleships, I have found that they do indeed have some redeeming quality's. British DDs for example can turn on a dime, though I still feel they are inferior to their counterpart with other nations.

 

The same can't be said with British Heavy Cruisers, this is my second time going through the tiers and once again it's a chore.

 

I feel there is a problem when in the British Heavy Cruiser introduction video you have WoWs telling you to play one way (medium range support) then everyone else either saying how crap they are or telling you that they must be played another way (hug your concealment, lob HE).

 

The problem is they are heavy only in name and do not perform the function they are suppose to. Here are some bullet points.

 

Cons:

 

• They have ludicrously short range. As such you will constantly find yourself under fire with no way to respond.
• Their AP is poor at range whereas other cruisers can easily citadel at range.
• They have weak armour and a giant citadel, despite WoW saying the contrary, you will eat citadels for breakfast, even when angled.
• They are slow and turn like a battleship.
• They apparently have good HE but I struggle to cause any real damage with them.
• They are slow to reload.

• Small health pool in comparison to other Heavy Cruisers

• Secondaries are short range

• Lack of consumables,

• Floaty shell syndrome

 

Pros:

 

• They have okay AA
• They have okay concealment (negated by Wargaming obsession with CVs and Subs)
• Zombie heal (but you will be citadel hit so much it's not that great) 

 

I feel the cons far outweigh the pros, I very rarely see people playing them and I think I understand why, their counterparts do what they do but better.

 

I had a game where I snuck up on a Sherman (a bad idea, yes but we were getting hammered and I was desperate. I used hydro and spotted them in their smoke, I hoped that my firepower would be enough to devastate them. I fired into their broadside and got a bunch of pens but the RNG gods frowned upon me and I didn't do more than 6000 damage. My secondaries were out of range and my reload meant that by the time I could fire again I was eaten alive. I was outgunned in a Heavy Cruiser by a Destroyer.

 

You will be overmatched by most and will take massive damage even when angled.

 

With all the issues these ships have and the general lack of regard for them I would have thought that Wargaming would have taken notice, after all they were universally panned upon launch. But it seems that Wargaming went straight to their next Soviet, paper drawn lovechild abomination and have not revisited them since.

 

The question is how to improve them? Because as it is, once I have completed the tiers and got my research bonus, I see no reason to play them again since they are inferior to other Heavy Cruisers, by quite a large margin.

 

Once again, sorry if I have been annoying, just wanted to discuss this.

 

Makes you wonder how Britain ruled the waves when everyone else had better ships.

 

Ask not what your cruiser can do for you; but what you can do for your cruiser. 

[Nibenay78]

2 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

Yes - see below. Because we were comparing KGV to other ships of the same Tier, I looked at the armour model for Frankie C, and this is what I saw....

 

 

I was more thinking it's a bit amusing how Italy wants an ICEbreaker

[invicta2012]

Just now, Nibenay78 said:

I was more thinking it's a bit amusing how Italy wants an ICEbreaker

You might have to explain that one to me. Is it just that Italy has warm seas (a lack of ice) or is it something to do with the acronym?

 

[Nibenay78]

Just now, invicta2012 said:

You might have to explain that one to me. Is it just that Italy has warm seas (a lack of ice) or is it something to do with the acronym?

 

The first and most obvious one. You have to go fairly north to make ice an issue.

[FloatingTarget]

Apparently British Heavy Cruisers do good HE damage? I have yet to see this as even a full salvo that land and hits the super structure rarely does more than 3000-4000 damage and with such a long reload time it makes the guns not worth it.

 

So yea, slow clunky, slow to turn and reload, guns that don't seem to dish out damage and short range and fragile armour. Not worth the grind.

[Margin_Walker]

They do plenty of damage. You get a decent amount of 10k alpha salvos. Had a game with her after posting on this thread the other night. Nothing wrong with her and even the AP is useable when needed. 

 

 

 

 

[FloatingTarget]

1 minute ago, Margin_Walker said:

They do plenty of damage. You get a decent amount of 10k alpha salvos. Had a game with her after posting on this thread the other night. Nothing wrong with her and even the AP is useable when needed. 

 

 

 

 

 

Cool for you I guess, so why can't I get close to that? All HE shells do is around 3000-4000 damage even if I get a full salvo in, AP is bad at range. I aim at the super structure with the HE rounds since they can't penetrate anything else at range, if I get too close I just get instantly citadel hit and destroyed and in a duel it's pretty useless as it takes a century to reload its guns.

 

If it's such an amazing ship, then why does hardly anyone use it? I have had nothing but a miserable time with the British Heavy Cruiser line. Once I get my research bonus, I'll be selling it.

[Margin_Walker]

I guess different ships just work for different people. It's about what you enjoy. There are plenty of ships I do poorly in, but most aren't necessarily bad. 

 

I don't mind the long reload/high alpha. I take rudder mod and tend to swing in and out of a good angle when kiting, which fits between salvos. 

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

On 1/9/2023 at 7:28 AM, Miscommunication_dept said:

All of the above!

 

To be honest, with that AP a radar option would make it a DD killer.

 

My preference would be armour and a bit of dpm. Perhaps with increased penetration.

 

@Seraphice

 

Since you're back from the holidays, care to chime in here? Not much caring about Goliath, but an opinion concerning Gibraltar would be nice. Is someone going to buff this thing anytime soon from it's red headed step child status?

I admit, I do ok with it - but I could do better, you know?

[_Keiban_]

Vor 1 Stunde, FloatingTarget sagte:

 

Cool for you I guess, so why can't I get close to that? All HE shells do is around 3000-4000 damage even if I get a full salvo in, AP is bad at range. I aim at the super structure with the HE rounds since they can't penetrate anything else at range, if I get too close I just get instantly citadel hit and destroyed and in a duel it's pretty useless as it takes a century to reload its guns.

 

If it's such an amazing ship, then why does hardly anyone use it? I have had nothing but a miserable time with the British Heavy Cruiser line. Once I get my research bonus, I'll be selling it.

I can only speak for my games, but to get 250k+ is usually the result of 15+ mins of constant shooting. So you need to a) have a game that lasts that long, b) survive (nearly) the full duration and c) be in position to shoot something. You can watch my replay of my 267k game.

 

I don't think anybody called Goliath amazing. I would describe it as solid, average and boring. But that doesn't mean you can't have good games in it. I personally prefer Hindenburg for that playstyle though because of the faster reload.

 

 

20230109_095155_PBSC210-Goliath_15_NE_north.wowsreplay

[Pandafaust]

6 hours ago, FloatingTarget said:

I aim at the super structure with the HE rounds since they can't penetrate anything else at range

Just for info, HE pen doesn't vary with range on account of it exploding on contact.  I can't remember Goliath's HE pen value off the top of my head, but it's pretty decent.

[Redcap375]

Did not enjoy the line one bit.   Was looking forward to it and when it came? Meh.

 

The only ship I have kept in the port is the Goliath, but I hardly play it in Randoms since the first few games and only one season in CB's when we was running a kiting die hard cruiser and it did well due to it's tankiness WHEN PLAYED CORRECTLY.

 

The short range, lackluster AP and ssslllooowww reload kills it for me "fun" wise.  Don't get me wrong, when things happen it can happen and it's a tough nut to crack when sailed right (it can bounce Yam shells), but if it's caught in a bad spot it will die very fast. It's another fire spamme.

 

I think it's simply too boring for me to take into random battles, both in the play style and waiting half the game for reloads. My stats in the thing with 100% WR:

 

Goliath

10

U.K.

6

100%

1 724

90 081

0.83

0.67

Details

 

It's another example of damage over actually winning battles (*3rd in tier 10 damage but 10th in WR) and it really needs a captain that knows what he/she is doing.  It's actually not a popular ship as the overall numbers of people playing it is quite low for a ship that came out a while ago and I hardly see many people sail it at all. 

 

*WOWS overall stats

[Seraphice]

15 hours ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said:

@Seraphice

 

Since you're back from the holidays, care to chime in here? Not much caring about Goliath, but an opinion concerning Gibraltar would be nice. Is someone going to buff this thing anytime soon from it's red headed step child status?

I admit, I do ok with it - but I could do better, you know?

There are no changes planned to Gibraltar right now. I understand that she has her limitations, but she also has her strengths (e.g. high alpha against DDs) which can be very influential.

Fair seas captain!
~Sera

[arttuperkunas]

10 hours ago, Redcap375 said:

 

It's another example of damage over actually winning battles (*3rd in tier 10 damage but 10th in WR) and it really needs a captain that knows what he/she is doing.  It's actually not a popular ship as the overall numbers of people playing it is quite low for a ship that came out a while ago and I hardly see many people sail it at all. 

 

*WOWS overall stats

My impression is that that is not due to how strong/weak it is, but how painfully limited/boring it is to play.

 

I would say it's the most boring thing you can do in WOWS, but then again, I have recently played some sub matches... I'm acquiring a taste for watching paint dry and licking windows for entertainment.

[FloatingTarget]

6 hours ago, Seraphice said:

There are no changes planned to Gibraltar right now. I understand that she has her limitations, but she also has her strengths (e.g. high alpha against DDs) which can be very influential.

Fair seas captain!
~Sera

 

Are any of the British hips going to get an overhaul. Because many, Especially British Heavy Cruisers which feel like they were rushed out and have never been looked at again. When they were released the reaction was a resounding "meh".

[Seraphice]

4 minutes ago, FloatingTarget said:

 

Are any of the British hips going to get an overhaul. Because many, Especially British Heavy Cruisers which feel like they were rushed out and have never been looked at again. When they were released the reaction was a resounding "meh".

Unfortunately there are no details on this that I can share at the moment.

 

Fair seas captain!
~Sera

[FloatingTarget]

Just had another game, ships are utter trash. Heavy Cruisers of the same tier have faster firing, longer range, harder hitting guns. You are doomed to lose a duel. Got SAP spammed to death, I had to wait a century before firing again, meanwhile my opponent could dish out shells that were doing around 4000 damage per shell at around every three seconds. All I could do is tickle them for about 1000 damage for a full salvo at close range. Sorry, but these ships are utterly useless, most people don't play them and I can see why.

 

If they are not going to be improved then once I get my research points I will just be selling. There is no point in keeping around a ship that can't really do anything that other ships can just completely outclass it in. Moskva and Henri have better guns, better reloading and are more tanky. Why pick a British Heavy over these?

 

I'm sure some people like them, but it's been nothing but frustration and misery.

[Panocek]

32 minutes ago, FloatingTarget said:

Just had another game, ships are utter trash. Heavy Cruisers of the same tier have faster firing, longer range, harder hitting guns. You are doomed to lose a duel. Got SAP spammed to death, I had to wait a century before firing again, meanwhile my opponent could dish out shells that were doing around 4000 damage per shell at around every three seconds. All I could do is tickle them for about 1000 damage for a full salvo at close range. Sorry, but these ships are utterly useless, most people don't play them and I can see why.

 

If they are not going to be improved then once I get my research points I will just be selling. There is no point in keeping around a ship that can't really do anything that other ships can just completely outclass it in. Moskva and Henri have better guns, better reloading and are more tanky. Why pick a British Heavy over these?

 

I'm sure some people like them, but it's been nothing but frustration and misery.

I don't even know why you think posting on the forum will change anything. Since WG embraced Saint Spreadshiet as their balancing deity few years ago, any player opinions whether X ship is good, bad, trash, unplayable or overperforming are irrelevant, as long as Saint Spreadshiet says "she stays within acceptable parameters". Case in point, CVs and subs.

 

If you don't like X ship, don't play her and move on to something else. Other option would be organizing pretty much all clans on EU and agreeing to purposefully play bad her, bringing her stats down serverwide. That way Saint Spreadshiet will suggest buffs to her to "compensate" inadequate stats.

[Bland_42]

5 minuti fa, Panocek ha scritto:

... Saint Spreadshiet ...

I would be curious, anyone know who write this "spreadshit" and on what are the parameters based?

 

And I would be also curious about the QI of said writer...

[Panocek]

Just now, Bland_42 said:

I would be curious, anyone know who write this "spreadshit" and on what are the parameters based?

 

And I would be also curious about the QI of said writer...

"yes" is the answer you're looking for 

 

I think Sub_Octavian was very proud of it back in the day, maybe you can find his posts somewhere on the topic, reddit included?

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

7 hours ago, Seraphice said:

There are no changes planned to Gibraltar right now. I understand that she has her limitations, but she also has her strengths (e.g. high alpha against DDs) which can be very influential.

Yeah, I'm not denying that - Gibraltar works for me and any other ship feels sluggish now.

It's just generally considered to be the worst pick of the RB ships and the amount of total games played with Gibraltar is very low, even compared to newer ships.

 

1 hour ago, Seraphice said:

Unfortunately there are no details on this that I can share at the moment.

Wait, WG is considering buffing the british tech tree heavy cruisers, but not gibraltar?

 

 

 

[_Keiban_]

Vor 3 Stunden, FloatingTarget sagte:

Just had another game, ships are utter trash. Heavy Cruisers of the same tier have faster firing, longer range, harder hitting guns. You are doomed to lose a duel. Got SAP spammed to death, I had to wait a century before firing again, meanwhile my opponent could dish out shells that were doing around 4000 damage per shell at around every three seconds. All I could do is tickle them for about 1000 damage for a full salvo at close range. Sorry, but these ships are utterly useless, most people don't play them and I can see why.

Ah, back to square 1. Ship is trash. Nothing learned, 0 reflection.

 

Vor 3 Stunden, FloatingTarget sagte:

If they are not going to be improved then once I get my research points I will just be selling. There is no point in keeping around a ship that can't really do anything that other ships can just completely outclass it in. Moskva and Henri have better guns, better reloading and are more tanky.

Can't wait that you play those and see the next thread how crap they are.